HelliBoy Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Hint- its in the second paragraph. article "will fly for........." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyNHighNFast Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Is it really flying for "free?" For someone looking to build time in a turbine ship, with less than the general 1000 hour requirement for employment, where the employer will pay for their transition training, it is a great opportunity. I'll tell you what, if I were a CFI working my way up the chain, with just a few hundred hours logged, I would volunteer to fly an OH-58 just for the flight experience and consider the flight time to be compensation enough. I wouldn't even consider it work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volition Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Is it really flying for "free?" For someone looking to build time in a turbine ship, with less than the general 1000 hour requirement for employment, where the employer will pay for their transition training, it is a great opportunity. I'll tell you what, if I were a CFI working my way up the chain, with just a few hundred hours logged, I would volunteer to fly an OH-58 just for the flight experience and consider the flight time to be compensation enough. I wouldn't even consider it work. We had all this discussion a week ago!! I'd do the same thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Hint- its in the second paragraph. article "will fly for........." Y'all be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. Everybody knows that if it's free, it's probably worth every penny. Is that you? And, how do you think the peace officer who's riding in that bird feels about your worth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelliBoy Posted July 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 Is it really flying for "free?" For someone looking to build time in a turbine ship, with less than the general 1000 hour requirement for employment, where the employer will pay for their transition training, it is a great opportunity. I'll tell you what, if I were a CFI working my way up the chain, with just a few hundred hours logged, I would volunteer to fly an OH-58 just for the flight experience and consider the flight time to be compensation enough. I wouldn't even consider it work. Ok, you think hour requirements are arbitrary. I disagree- they are there for a reason and I have no problem with the hour building by teaching system in the US. If I was a taxpayer in this community I wouldnt want some low time pilot flying for free, but I doubt thats the case in this situation. No insurance company would go for it. My point here is about wages and why they're so depressed for the risk and responsibility we shoulder, not dreaming about flying a police helicopter chasing bad guys with 300 hours. We had all this discussion a week ago!! I'd do the same thing!sorry for the rehash then, post the link to the thread and I'll put it on there Y'all be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. Everybody knows that if it's free, it's probably worth every penny. Is that you? And, how do you think the peace officer who's riding in that bird feels about your worth?If I was the peace officer riding in that bird I'd be scared. This probably isnt a case of low time pilots begging time, I have no problem with that and have done it myself, but its always been low time type work- not flying through neighborhoods at night. This is most likely high time guys coming out of retirement to have some fun. They're obviously independently wealthy, or they'd want a paycheck, and there are plenty of pilots that would love the job, with a paycheck. Flying for free depresses wages and screws with the market. We're all capitalists here, right? This is just my opinion but if you disagree please tell me you're paid a commensurate ammount of money for the work you do. I know crane operators that make double what most pilots do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyNHighNFast Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 Oy Vey! Helliboy - "Ok, you think hour requirements are arbitrary." I never said that, if you want to quote me I said, "with less than the general 1000 hour requirement for employment" Helliboy -"not dreaming about flying a police helicopter chasing bad guys with 300 hours." I was actually thinking of 6-700 hours, I should have been more specific. Wally - "And, how do you think the peace officer who's riding in that bird feels about your worth?" As a CFI, I would be teaching him to fly as time and operating cost allowed, I think "my worth" would be quite high. Not just to the officer, but also the agency. Helliboy - "Flying for free depresses wages and screws with the market." That may be true, but the in this case, the expensive turbine time you would be getting for "free" will make it easier to be hired into a paying job. Opinions on this topic will be as varied as the people on here, as everyone's situation is different. I fly for the love of it, the money is secondary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 Oy Vey! Wally - "And, how do you think the peace officer who's riding in that bird feels about your worth?" As a CFI, I would be teaching him to fly as time and operating cost allowed, I think "my worth" would be quite high. Not just to the officer, but also the agency. Opinions on this topic will be as varied as the people on here, as everyone's situation is different. I fly for the love of it, the money is secondary. The job wouldn't be an instructional position, it's a demanding position that requires specific training and concentration on the task at hand. I'd guess it's as close to combat as the civilian world will get you, and that'll take a good bit more than a valid certificate to do adequately, much less well. The recent L/E crash here in Georgia should highlight that fact. There's a reason that law enforcement flying is kind of an exclusive club. I understand the need to accumulate experience, log hours. But if you financed your training, you're chipping away at the market value of your accomplishment when you broadcast a volunteer to fly for free. We all do it because we love it, but be selective in your pro bono offers- it's in your interest, in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linc Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 Are public-use aircraft even insurable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomer Pylot Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 Probably not, because they're not even regulated by the FAA. You don't even need a license to fly public-use aircraft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svtcobra66 Posted July 19, 2007 Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 Public-use aircraft are insurable, I have had experience dealing with insurance for many law enforcement agencies that operate OH58s. Its usually comparable to standard commercial operations in terms of rates, though they seem to accept lower time pilots easier because the law enforcement guys are usually cops first and sometimes fly with 150-200hrs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhotoFlyer Posted July 19, 2007 Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 *hijack alert* I don't see why being a cop first would allow lower insurance rates. 200 hours is 200 hours, regardless of what you did before you were a pilot. I would think that being a cop first would make you more dangerous since you would tend to think like a cop instead of thinking like a pilot. *hijacking over* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyNHighNFast Posted July 19, 2007 Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 The job wouldn't be an instructional position, it's a demanding position that requires specific training and concentration on the task at hand. Which is why I said "as time and operating cost allowed," I would not expect to instruct during a mission. The position would be demanding, but if you were able to pass your CFI checkride, and keep yourself alive for 500+ hours of instructing, you already have the skills required. A turbine transition course (preferably in the same make/model) should be all that you need, to be able to manage the different systems in the aircraft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyMountainPilot Posted July 19, 2007 Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 Which is why I said "as time and operating cost allowed," I would not expect to instruct during a mission. The position would be demanding, but if you were able to pass your CFI checkride, and keep yourself alive for 500+ hours of instructing, you already have the skills required. A turbine transition course (preferably in the same make/model) should be all that you need, to be able to manage the different systems in the aircraft. Do you really think it is about skill? It isn't. Companies don't hire a pilot based on skill. I have never been asked to fly during an interview. They don't test my skills before they hire me. They want to know if I am reckless and make bad decision, and have been lucky enough to not get killed or have any accidents. I have hired pilots in the past, and the ones who claim to have the best "skill" usually are very skillful, but they are also the worst pilots. They are cocky and have poor ADM. ADM is what will get you hired, not skill. A municipality can probably get insurance on an aircraft quite easily. They insure so much equipment and property that their insurer will probably bend over backwards and even take on more risk with the helicopter than they would for a commerical operator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelliBoy Posted July 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 Do you really think it is about skill? It isn't. Exactly the point. The 1,000 hr requirement isnt to verify that you can wiggle a stick, a chimp can be taught to do that. Its to verify that you can make decisions that wont get you fired or killed or bend metal. The reason I posted this article is almost moot; as long as there are people like FlyinHigh are willing to *work* for free, and companies (or municipalities) are greedy enough to *hire* them, pilots will be continually treated like migrant fruit pickers. I include pilots who work for peanuts in this gripe too, they're probably more prolific. I'd be more willing to hire a >1000hr pilot who was mature enough to realize he probably didnt have the experience to be safe and train him, than hire one who was gung ho and cocky about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyNHighNFast Posted July 19, 2007 Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 You guys are getting way off base here. "cocky and gung ho" would be me saying I could do that as soon as I pass my PPL. "WORKING" for free is providing labor for "NOTHING" in return. I guess I should stop "working," with the kids at the YMCA or stop "working" with illiterate adults in my spare time, since I'm not getting paid the $300.00 HR that I charge for my "work" time. The greedy bastards at the Y and Library how dare they... I mean my time is worth more than that and I can't take personal satisfaction to the bank. Right? You should realize that it does not have to be money or material things to be of value to someone. Heck you have people out there that pay companies for the opportunity to "work" flying helicopters one of those companies advertises right here on VR, but I don't see anyone raising a fuss over that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelliBoy Posted July 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 We're 'getting way off base here' ???? Are you a working helicopter pilot? Im not sure why you're responding to this post if you arent. This is our livelihood- not a pastime that we do for fun...who cares if we cant pay our bills becaue its not about money, right?. You've got to be kidding. I said earlier I have no problem with begging time-I've done it too- but this is different; its proffessional pilot work for proffessional pilots, this isnt the YMCA. And the places that advertise for people to pay to do 'work' arent putting you in the machine unsupervised and unleashing you on a job, they send a paid proffessional with you. How about you stop charging the $300/hr you get at your job and eat self satisfaction for dinner. Isnt that what you're suggesting we do and be happy about so you can fly for free?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyNHighNFast Posted July 20, 2007 Report Share Posted July 20, 2007 Yes, off base, as in you should read my first post at the top of the thread carefully. I totally agree with you, that in this case it is a job for a professional pilot. Do you not consider a CFI a professional pilot? I was not even thinking of that scenario as a job, just as an opportunity to gain experience that would increase the chance of finding employment, beyond the CFI stage. My reference to the YMCA was just to point out the fact that doing something for the sheer joy of doing it, is not a crime. I consider myself a professional in my field, and no, I would not expect to work for no pay, but if I had the opportunity to do unpaid work that would increase my skill set or knowledge and it would be to my benefit in the long run, sign me up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelliBoy Posted July 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2007 Roger. I get a little worked up because we do it to ourselves because we love to and want to fly. A CFI is a professional, but they should realize they're hurting themselves in the long run when they do this kind of stuff instead of paying their dues like everyone else. Its also unnecessary, employers know how it works and will give you your turbine transition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyNHighNFast Posted July 20, 2007 Report Share Posted July 20, 2007 I gotcha. I can see where someone who has had access to a "free" pilot on a regular basis, could get the mindset that "there are more where he came from," but there is no doubt that this industry could benefit from apprenticeship, under the watchful eyes of an experienced mentor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmiller4292 Posted July 21, 2007 Report Share Posted July 21, 2007 hijack alert* I don't see why being a cop first would allow lower insurance rates. 200 hours is 200 hours, regardless of what you did before you were a pilot. I would think that being a cop first would make you more dangerous since you would tend to think like a cop instead of thinking like a pilot. *hijacking over* I'm mostly a lurker, but this post has me perplexed...how do you figure that being a Police Officer first would make you "more dangerous?" What is it about thinking like a cop that correlates to poor decision making or a greater propensity for risk taking? Would you to care to elaborate on where this information comes from? Ryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fearlessnitefighter Posted July 22, 2007 Report Share Posted July 22, 2007 If you check with departments that accept volunteer pilots you will will find that they have have stringent requirement in order for them to fly with them. As for the working for free what is the difference in someone becoming a reserve police officer? Do I think that reserves are driving down wages for the full time officers....absolutly not. Could "pay" be giving back to the community and making the world a little bit better with your service? Out of all the helicopter pilots out there many are not able to have the opportunity to do law enforcement work. The volunteer pilots that I have spoken with are proffesional pilots but do this because it's fun and something different and they are able to give back to their community. They are not looking for free training or building hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inthegreen Posted July 22, 2007 Report Share Posted July 22, 2007 OH58-A, Low and slow, probably heavy with a lower time pilot. Does anyone else smell an LTE incident brewing here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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