Ways to find your wind

[betr_thn_Icarus]

Well we all watch man made things like socks, flags ect.

Most of us watch grass, water, smoke, dust and snow blowing.

Some of us will orbit a spot and watch your ground track and the general feel of things.

 

What are some really creative ways to spot wind?

 

I've been in a lot of situations where the wind at 500' is a lot different than the ground...especially now that I'm flying right on the coast. I've also been in some where there weren't really any clues but the last known wind. What do you high time pilots look for in these situations?

[joker]

Well, you've mentioned most of the methods. You also touched upon looking at ground track in an orbit.

 

Actually, looking at ground track whilst flying a straight line is one of the simplest, and underestimated ways of determining wind. Although easier if you have a straight feature (road, railway, coastline etc..etc..), then all you have to do is look at aircraft heading relative to the feature compared to your ground track.

 

Another thread recenlty asks about wind correction during cross country planning. Again here, simply by comparing the angle at which you planned to cross say a powerline and the actual angle you cross can help you know the direction and strength of the wind.

 

Let me elaborate on that: Say your planning shows that you will cross a N/S powerline, on a track of 045 with 5 degrees right correction which takes you to your next waypoint thatyou can see in the distance. However, in actual fact the angle between your helicopter's heading and the powerline is more like 60 degrees. Well this tells me clearly that the wind is pretty strong from the right, stronger than planned.

 

Looking at shadows of clouds can help (although of course that tells you the wind at the cloud level).

 

Looking at the ground features, whether they move or not may give you an idea of what the wind is doing below. Understanding basic principals of how wind flows, and curves around and over ground obstacles, such as hills, buildings etc..etc.. http://www.kaper.us/basics/BASICS_040502_hunt_windflow.html Understand how the shap affects the shape and size of the wind shadow too.

 

Knowlege of the weather and meterology principals such as convection, wind friction, orographic lifting etc..etc..

 

 

 

 

Hope that gives some ideas.

 

Joker

 

One lesser known ways of determining wind is to look at the 5th primary dorsal flight feather of any soaring bird. This will always point downwards when flying downwind.

 

If that doesn't work then I suggest you use the old tried and tested method of licking your finger and sticking it out the window.

Edited October 15, 2007 by joker

[Linc]

Let me elaborate on that: Say your planning shows that you will cross a N/S powerline, on a track of 045 with 5 degrees right correction which takes you to your next waypoint thatyou can see in the distance. However, in actual fact the angle between your helicopter's heading and the powerline is more like 60 degrees. Well this tells me clearly that the wind is pretty strong from the right, stronger than planned.

Or that you are seriously off course. Not likely in these days of GPS, but not unheard of, either.

[Gomer Pylot]

With practice, you can tell the wind within a couple of knots by looking at the water if you're flying over any. The ocean or a large lake is best, of course, but even small ponds will show any wind. The whitecaps always go against the wind, so you want to land in the same direction they're moving. With much less than 5 knots, it can be hard to tell the direction, because the small ripples aren't moving much, and if I can't tell for sure, I land across them, because a small crosswind isn't a problem.

[helonorth]

I really don't know any good ways on land, other than those you mentioned, but over water there

are a few tricks i've learned. As Gomer said, look for the direction the wave breaks. That is the

direction it is coming from. There is also some kind of reddish scum-like stuff that gets dragged

along by the wind. As it trails off and breaks apart, it can also show direction. If you screw up

like I did recently, watch what way the birds take off. They ALWAYS take off into the wind. I made

an approach to a platform a few months ago thinking I was into the wind. No excuses, but

fortunately for me it was covered with pelicans. As I got closer, they took off. Towards me!

Time to go around. There are usually boats tied up to platforms and they will be attached to the

lee side so they don't hit the platform. If you fly off-shore and are not sure, fly by a platform that

has a sock and verify.

[helonorth]

Gomer,

 

You've got that backwards. The wind pushes the water. The white caps/swells are moving/breaking in the same direction as the wind.

-V5

 

I don't agree with everything Gomer says, but he's probably got more years off-shore than you've

been alive. The waves offshore break in the direction of the wind. Period.

[joker]

You've got that backwards. The wind pushes the water. The white caps/swells are moving/breaking in the same direction as the wind.

 

Both of you could be right here, depending on the wind strength and other factors such as current.

 

However, let's assume a wind building from light to strong.

 

The first whitecaps you see (Beaufort 3/4) will appear to travel into the wind. Whitecaps form because the wind is 'catching' the most exposed part of the sea surface, the crest of the wave. If wind and current / wave direction are the same, then there will be few / smaller waves (due to less friction) and thus, later propensity for whitecap formation. However, if tide and current are against the wind, then there is more friction and thus earlier whitecap formation.

 

In stronger winds or with breaking waves whitecaps could be going the same direction or opposite direction to the wind. Remember, waves could break for a number of reasons. i.e. depth, wind, tidal energy, displacement. Then it becomes difficult to judge the direction of the wind from purely the whitecaps alone. However, if the wind is strong enough, you should have some spray or foam on the lee side of the whitecap. You should have some general idea what half of the compass the wind is coming from. Waves and swell will generally travel with the wind. By using all of these factors too, it shouldn't be that difficult to get an idea.

 

Here is an artical which helps: I hope you enjoy it!!!

 

An Analytical Model for Oceanic Whitecap Coverage

 

Joker

Edited October 15, 2007 by joker

[Rob Lyman]

Whitecaps are nice over the water, but if it is less than 10-12 kts, you need to go by the ripples, which may not show much movement from the air. Ripples form lines that are perpendicular to the wind. The ripples will move in the direction of the wind, but may be difficult to see actually moving from altitude.

 

Look at trees or vegetation at the edge of a clearing or that are taller than their surroundings. Wind velocity, and direction, varies the most in the first 20 - 30 ' from the surface and will be stronger and easier to read when the indicator is removed from surface clutter.

 

Also, it changes direction to leave or enter a shoreline at a perpendicular angle unless it's nearly parallel to the shore, then it will follow the shore for some distance. The same thing applies to treelines, dunes, etc..

 

If you look at my avatar, you can see the dark line(s) to the left of the cockpit and a white whitecap line to the right of the left/port stabilator. Assuming the camera is pointed toward the rear/right or starboard/aft end of the ship (which it is), we can tell the wind is either from the startboard quarter (rear right) or the port bow (left front) of the ship. Since we usually do not land with a tailwind, I would vote for starboard quarter. All of that can be determined from a small avatar photo.

 

That's all this sailor (Navy and sailboat racing) can add.

Edited October 15, 2007 by Rob Lyman

[beckwith]

The Baeufort scale is an observation based scale of wind speed.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_scale

[volition]

Ok about the water!!! What If I fly around where there's no water??

[Hedge36]

Ok about the water!!! What If I fly around where there's no water??

 

Got GPS? Compare your airspeed to the GPS-displayed ground speed. If time on station permits, make a quick square circle orbit and compare the two at various points... it won't give you a perfect direction/speed, but for potential emergency purposes it'd make the difference.

[Paisley]

Use the force.

[Gomer Pylot]

The whitecaps don't actually move into the wind. What happens is the water is pushed by the wind, the waves break, and the whitecaps essentially stand still, while the waves move under them. The perceived motion is into the wind. If the wind gets strong enough, say well above 40 knots, the wind blows the water off the waves, creating spray, which does travel with the wind, but the whitecaps which stay on the surface still move into the wind, or at least seem to.

 

One thing to keep in mind, helonorth, is the current. It's entirely possible, with light winds, for the boats to be tied up on the upwind side, because the current pushes the boat more strongly than the wind. 5 knots of current, which isn't that unusual, will have more effect than 10 knots of wind, because the boat is down in the water. This condition can be a little deceiving, because with the current running into the wind, it appears that the wind is stronger than it really is, and you'll get whitecaps sooner. It usually takes >10 knots of wind to get whitecaps, but they can occur with maybe 5 knots if the current is strong enough in the right direction. Keep an eye on everything, and don't rely on one clue exclusively.

 

With no water, you have to look at everything. Flags are good, as are the ripples on ponds. Windmills usually point into the wind, but may not if they've been locked in place. If the wheel isn't turning and there is wind, be careful. Cows graze with their tails into the wind, horses graze with their heads into the wind. Long grass can show ripples, just like water. Smoke is always a good indicator.

Edited October 15, 2007 by Gomer Pylot

[clay]

flying offshore, if there is seaweed it will always "point" into the wind. . . in other words, seaweed in the open ocen will form a type of teardrop shape, with the point always into the wind. one thing i learned from an old offshore pilot was everytime you see seaweed or any kind of wind indication, turn the heading bug to the wind heading (if equipped) then if you have an engine failure or any other emergency, instead of hunting for wind direction, you can glance down at the bug and know instantly were the wind is

[AngelFire_91]

Well we all watch man made things like socks, flags ect.

Most of us watch grass, water, smoke, dust and snow blowing.

Some of us will orbit a spot and watch your ground track and the general feel of things.

 

What are some really creative ways to spot wind?

 

I've been in a lot of situations where the wind at 500' is a lot different than the ground...especially now that I'm flying right on the coast. I've also been in some where there weren't really any clues but the last known wind. What do you high time pilots look for in these situations?

 

 

Something I learned from my floatplane flying days, look at a lake, stream, or other body of water other then an ocean or sea, and the windword side will be a smoother surface and leeword side rougher. Works wounderfully if there is a small island or something in the middle. I use this technique almost everyday, of course it's always best to use a couple of different ways to determine direction though.

[helonorth]

Gomer,

 

You've got that backwards. The wind pushes the water. The white caps/swells are moving/breaking in the same direction as the wind.

-V5

 

You both said essentially the same thing, yet you disagreed with gomer, so I guess I got confused!

Lighten up, Francis. Gomer, I like the tip about the current.

[Vaqueroaero]

In an urban environment if you want a general direction have a look for tower cranes. They are left to swing with the wind when not in use. The jib will always point with the wind.

 

However bear in mind that they have to be out of use, they only indicate wind direction at a substantial AGL height and also the wind must be strong enough to move them.

So I guess reading the list of 'negatives' that's a fairly useless wind indicator.

[betr_thn_Icarus]

Does anyone know the trick where you stand with your back to the wind then point left and that shows you where the cold front is moving from? Did I get it right? Would this be in the northern hemisphere only and opposite to the south?

 

This is exactly why I like this site. I asked something not expecting to learn much but I really did. The thing about the birds feather is very true I observed it today..sounded like a joke. Makes sense if the bird is getting pushed. I didn't really get to count 5 in though. Even though I watch cloud shadows every day I hadn't really watched them move from the air. I was hoping more than anything that this would help the really new people and it helped me too. It's great to watch as many as you can so you get the best idea of the overall wind pattern.

 

I'm going to go watch some white caps but I do remember some windy days on a lake watching the caps break off the back of the wave as it moved out from under them. The ocean looks different and is new to me. I have also started to notice patters around certain types of clouds that are different here than Nevada or California where I flew last.

[betr_thn_Icarus]

The crane thing is totally new news to me. Interesting.

[joker]

I think I've said this before, but I've actually seen a seagull land downwind. Not pretty at all! It was gusty and there was a 180 windsheer on short final to the beach. One of the funniest things I'd seen ever. A bird with SWP.

 

As for the water and waves I hope we have sorted that out. Just remember that 'wind waves' are different to 'swell'. There are different mechanisms at work to form whitecaps.

 

I think the GPS vs heading is a good way. That's the way most FMS systems work it out. Add in GS vs IAS and they also tell you the wind speed. However, just look at where you are pointing, trim your aircraft and judge where you'll end up. That's the best way to determine wind direction I think.

 

Rememebr that while it is best to have the wind on the nose at for landing and departing, what we should really be saying is 'We don't want the wind on the tail'. That means you must only be able to judge the wind to the nearest 180. If you can't judge that, then you have problems.

 

Joker

[Goldy]

Ok about the water!!! What If I fly around where there's no water??

 

 

I don't think they are listening !

 

Less than 10 Knot winds can be hard to detect direction without the obvious king size sheets hanging out to dry on the clothes line. Luckily, during power on landings, even the R22 can handle 10 knots up its tail...but definitely not the preferred route. In an auto/low power/high DA situation those same lil underpowered golf carts with skids can come down hard, and you really need that 10 knots blowing up your skirt. Hmmm, I guess I have nothing I can contribute to this conversation, but I did get everyone off the water.

 

Goldy

[lelebebbel]

In an urban environment if you want a general direction have a look for tower cranes. They are left to swing with the wind when not in use. The jib will always point with the wind.

 

Not always! They can also be locked in place, or have turning limitations, to make sure that they don't swing into or over other buildings etc.

 

I think nobody has mentioned trees so far. If you can see the lighter side of the leafes, you're most likely heading downwind

 

Good thread, very helpful for us newbies!

[betr_thn_Icarus]

The lighter side of the leaves is a good one. Might be hard to spot though.

 

Today our airport was shut down for runway maintenance to both runways....ie all planes. The heli's were allowed to fly. The tower told me report 2 miles to the NE after I called to enter the delta. When I called they gave me a clearance direct to ramp because of another heli in an odd pattern. It would have put me into a tail wind landing with 15-20 knot gusts. Always remember you can ask for another clearance...it's your decision and your butt after all.

 

I tried to get my R/C heli into settling with power today and even though they are grossly overpowered compared to the real thing you can do it for sure. I even broke the skids for the first time in a long time. I "pushed foreward" to get out of it and lost massive altitude then crashed because there wasn't enough time. You can hear it too like pushing a fan against a wall or a breeze ...even on the r/c...sure thats far beyond the shaking/vibration we notice in the real world.

 

On a different but similar note....Does anyone know if NOTARS have as big an issue with LTE as the rest of us? Since there are no blades it seems like it shouldn't get into this as much.....no rotor to eat the performance from. But maybe the vortices mess with the flow still???

[Low Level Lover]

Cows graze with their tails into the wind, horses graze with their heads into the wind.

 

 

Not to get into a pissing match, but I've had horses for many years and they've always stuck their butts into the wind when grazing..... I think they like to smell their own farts.

[Gomer Pylot]

Maybe they think they're cows. Or they're from Oklahoma There are no absolutes with cows or horses, they're all dumb as a box of rocks, but generally cows graze downwind, horses up, but they may go any direction in light winds. I would never bet my butt on either species doing anything.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Gomer Pylot