Hover First?

[Sparker]

Yes, I did a search....

 

I am wondering how many of you have learned to hover before doing straight and level.

 

I was given the advice to learn basic maneuvers before trying to master the hover. I don't know how much I should insist on this if my instructor wants me to hover first.

 

Basically, I don't know how big of a deal it is, but I will learn the hover faster after having mastered straight and level, then I will save hours and $$$$$, yes?

 

Are there any benefits of learning to hover first?

[Gomer Pylot]

Lo, those many years ago, my instructor took me to a confined area on the edge of a cliff, and had me hover there. When I could hold it there, then we went to the stagefield and started doing other stuff. Straight and level is easy, and anyone can do it. If you can't hover under difficult conditions, then flying straight and level is useless. One of the first things I learned to do after soloing was to fly with the cyclic between my knees while I lit a cigarette with 'gofer' matches. It's easy enough. My advice is find out now if you're wasting your money. Learn to hover, and if you can't, then save the rest of your money. If you've already given it all to the school, then it doesn't really matter, does it?

[Sparker]

One of the first things I learned to do after soloing was to fly with the cyclic between my knees while I lit a cigarette with 'gofer' matches. It's easy enough.

 

Can I be your pupil?

 

If you've already given it all to the school, then it doesn't really matter, does it?

 

I'm not stupid.

 

Edit:

 

Here is where I'm coming from: the first helicopter book I read had this to say:

 

"Whatever your experience level, hovering should not be the first thing you try to do in a helicopter. That would be like trying to ride a unicycle on a tightrope before you've become good enough to take the training wheels off of your bicycle...

...but your first chance at the controls of a helicopter should be in straight and level flight."

Edited November 10, 2007 by Sparker

[Goldy]

Are there any benefits of learning to hover first?

 

Wow, my opinion couldnt be further away. Learning to hover first would be like teaching your child to drive a car....a stickshift, on the LA freeways...up a steep hill, for his first drive.

 

Go out, fly some straight and level, get the feel for making small movements, do some patterns, and later on, get to the hover. Get some basics down first, then try to hover. Just like auto's, don't do them for hours...try to hover a bit, do a pattern, come back and try it again.

 

Goldy

[Guest rotorflyr84]

I think one could say that this is double sided. I think this issue would differ amongst those who have not been at the controls of an aircraft, vs. those who have had previous flight experience. I have my PPL SEL, so I would really like to start by getting a feel for the controls, but at the same time, placing more emphasis on learning to hover. Granted helicopters respond differently than fixed wing aircraft, but I know how to perform straight and level flight, turns, etc.

 

Just my 2 cents

[Chi-town]

After teaching my share of students, I've got a system for the first five to ten hours of training:

 

the first 5 hours should consist of starting out by flying some straight and level, turns, climbs and descents to get the feel for the ship. Then start doing some hover work with the different controls. After about 15 minutes of that do something else and then go back to a bit more hovering before calling it quits.

 

Spending an entire flight lesson on hovering will burn you out and the second half of the hour will be worse than the first half.

 

SOme students can hover in 2 lessons (strangely, those who are airplane pilots do pretty well except thay are a bit heavy on the pedals). Some take a bit more than 5 hours. One day it just clicks. You shouldn't just focus on one maneuver or skill, you have to mix it up a bit to develop the reflexes. That's my opinion. The longer it is since you first learned how to hover, the harder it is to explain it because it becomes natural.

 

My 2 cents

[PA Pilot]

My CFI had me do both straight and level and hover practice from the get go -- 10 minutes or so of hover work every lesson.

 

I once met a pilot who flies for Forbes who got his training as a civilian with the RAF (I guess they had some sort of program to train pilots for the reserves or something). He said he soloed at 8 hours and didn't know how to hover -- they taught them initially to land using full down autos! I'm not sure how they took off -- I guess basically a running takeoff.

[Jeff]

Definitely do something besides hovering first. Aviation Instruction is based on the building block method of instructing. Developing the proper motor skills for control inputs first will help out in the hover training. I like to get the students started hovering by about the third lesson, but it depends on the student. You really have to watch for when the student is done for that lesson and either move on to something else or end the lesson.

 

Jeff

[FlyNHighNFast]

I did some hover practice on my first lesson and sucked. We would do about 15 minutes of hovering, pick ups and set downs and then a pattern, that worked well for me as the hours progressed. I would say the hover is the foundation of helicopter flight training.

 

Since every normal landing terminates in a hover you will get lots of practice

[ADRidge]

As I recall, the first couple of lessons went like this: awareness training/straight n level, then we moved to shallow and medium bank turns while trying to maintain a steady attitude/speed (that really helped build the foundation for the reflexes, I think) and then we tried hovering.

 

I'd give it a shot, like I did, on my intro ride. If nothing else, it's kinda fun in a terrifying way. The trick is to remember that your instructor is much better than you and they WILL stop you before you get unrecoverable. They, like you, have better things to do that day than die.

[Goldy]

Granted helicopters respond differently than fixed wing aircraft, but I know how to perform straight and level flight, turns, etc.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

 

84- My assumption is you have no rotor flight time??? If not, you have no idea just how differently helo's are to FW. In fact some of the flight controls will be opposite of what you have learned. Opposite turning forces, NOT pushing the nose down when you are at risk of a rotor stall, NEVER diving the ship to avoid a mid-air...etc.....lots to learn in the pattern, and before you are trying to hover in a 20 knot crosswind, you will wish you were a bit more comfortable on the controls.

 

I have flown FW/ Gliders / Helo's, they are all quite different aircraft .

 

my 2 cents...back to the post, you should learn it all, one step at a time, and not focus on how fast can you learn to hover...

 

Goldy

[lv@1stflite]

In my ENTIRE 10 hrs TT, I have practiced hovering for 15 to 30 minutes every single lesson, including demo flight. I'm getting pretty salty at it now. It is like riding a bike. If you're riding a bike and you start to lean to the left and you consciously think "OK I'm starting to lean I need to put left input on the handlebars to keep from falling." You're too late! Same with a helicopter,(only with a few more controls, and a lot more opportunity for mis-hap) It has to be a reflex, muscle memory, getting comfortable with the ship (300CB BTW) etc...., My point is: I think there should be a third choice, Learn hovering at the same time as other skills. After all it is just as important as other skills right? The ship and its controls behave differently in ground effect than in forward flight.

 

 

After trying to wad up the heli on my sad attempt to hover on my demo flight, I doubted that I could ever do it, I also saw it as a challenge and wanted to try every time we started the engine. Fortunately my instructor told me we were going to work on it every lesson.

 

Now that I can hover while he ties his shoes, writes a letter home to Ireland, and watches videos on his portable :D :D The feeling of accomplishment is immeasurable!!!!

 

So to make a long story...... umm..... not quite so long, I thing hovering should be taught right along with other stuff, just the way I learned....... Wouldn't change a thing!

[Guest rotorflyr84]

84- My assumption is you have no rotor flight time??? If not, you have no idea just how differently helo's are to FW. In fact some of the flight controls will be opposite of what you have learned. Opposite turning forces, NOT pushing the nose down when you are at risk of a rotor stall, NEVER diving the ship to avoid a mid-air...etc.....lots to learn in the pattern, and before you are trying to hover in a 20 knot crosswind, you will wish you were a bit more comfortable on the controls.

 

I have flown FW/ Gliders / Helo's, they are all quite different aircraft .

 

my 2 cents...back to the post, you should learn it all, one step at a time, and not focus on how fast can you learn to hover...

 

Goldy

 

 

You're right Goldy, I don't have a single hour of rotor time yet. But, I have quite a few hours fixed wing time though. I guess I should have added "but I know the concept of performing straight and level flight, turns, etc. based on my fixed-wing experience." Now, this response was just in agreeance with you Goldy. I'm not offended at all. Tone is hard to understand through text, so no worries. I guess I really don't have much "room" to start throwing in my advice regarding helicopters, but as a student about to learn, that was just my opinion.

[IFLY]

You can fly the r22 kind of like a paraglider...if you lean to the left it starts flying left lean back to the right and it will stop. You have to be VERY still on the controls with no wind to do it though.

 

84 you have to get used to not using you feet when you turn, its mostly for power changes. I still have to watch myself when I've flown a sailplane a few days before jumping back in a heli.

 

(this is about losing an engine or practicing autos)A heli flys mostly level all the time so your instinct to decrease the AOA is backwards to what you do in an airplane. In the heli lowering the collective decreases the AOA on the airfoil and back stick will increase the speed of the rotor...rotor speed is life. Pushing forward kills rotor RPM and maybe you if it gets too low. You will have to watch out when you get comfortable and start doing things without thinking.

Edited November 10, 2007 by IFLYEVERYTHING

[Goldy]

Pushing forward kills rotor RPM and maybe you if it gets too low.

 

 

IFLY- Exactly the example I was thinking of...

 

 

84- No tone intended, none taken. Just don't "devalue" the experience gained doing pattern work. It involves a lot of power changes, with a hover at the end just before taking off again! Basically, all the tough stuff !

 

You will learn faster though, because you know the radio work and rules of the sky, so your comfort level will be much greater in the aircraft...and thus you will pick it up quicker.

 

Whatever you do, have a blast, be safe. Gotta go, I have a 44 with my name on it waiting for me !!

 

Goldy

Edited November 10, 2007 by Goldy

[HeliHelvig]

I just started my training two days ago so I have a total of 3 hours now not including my intro flights. Both of my lessons have gone pretty much exactly the same way: straight and level, hovering, patterns, and a couple of touch downs and lift offs. After about a ten minute flight to the practice area working on keeping a constant speed and altitude, climbing and descending, and turning, we would practice hovering for a few minutes then do a pattern. And repeated that about six or seven times. I think working on straight and level concurrently with hovering is a good way to do it. Both are a major part of flying a helicopter. It's working for me anyways. I'm hoping I'll have hovering down pretty well in a couple more hours.

[500E]

I think straight and level is to give you confidence, keeping a constant hight within 50 ft+- ain't so easy, when learning, there are many things a new pilot is trying to assimilate like not loosing\gaining hight in turns, radio, look out, scanning instruments, and hovering.

If I had had to learn to hover first my brain would have boiled after 15 minutes, an hour would just have been a wast of time as I got worse after 15min, an hour with 2x15 min hover + circuits was enough for the first few hours, until I felt a bit more confident, (a few minutes of trying to hover soon lowered the confidence level)

[Eric Hunt]

You learn how to fly forwards first for a reason: the machine has some stability when you do so.

 

The tail tends to stay behind you, and a small attitude change should only result in an airspeed loss and altitude gain.

 

In the hover, the tail requires constant attention to keep it where you want it, and an attitude change will cause movement over the ground and then the secondary effects kick in, any pretence of stability is lost, and so is your confidence. Spinning uncontrollably and pitching like a bronco isn't the way to learn.

 

Stick with the program:

Flight 1, effects of controls and intro to S&L

Flight 2, S&L, turns, climbs and descents. Demo hover on return to base

Flight 3, consolidation of the above

Flight 4, EOC in the hover, student starts on pedals alone, collective alone, pedals and collective. Intro cyclic alone. Get mechanic to put the buttons back into the stick after student squeezes the stick so hard they pop out.

Flight 5, get stuck into it.

 

In the early stages, it is not important to be able to hold position with cyclic, but to be able to recognise that the attitude is wrong and make an effort to fix it. Get back to a "flat" attitude, and the movement across the ground will gradually stop. Student's eyes should be on the attitude, not the blade of grass 10 feet away.

[Gomer Pylot]

This obviously varies from student to student, but doing things that slowly with a student of average competence is, IMO, a waste of time and money. By my 10th flight, I went solo. We were doing 180 autos on the third flight, IIRC. Of course, this was military training during the Vietnam era, and if you couldn't cut it, you went back to where you came from, so there was some incentive. My straight and level was from the heliport to the confined area, or the stagefield, and back. I don't recall ever not having all the controls, other than when the instructor took over to keep us out of trees or something.

 

Another technique I don't agree with is looking out into the distance. In the real flying world, you just can't do that. On an offshore platform, or in a confined area with obstacles all around, you simply have to look very close to where you are, often straight down, and hover, land, and take off that way. If you haven't practiced that, it's very difficult, but with practice it's just another technique that you don't have to think about. If you don't teach real-world flying, then the student is being shortchanged. Of course, you have to know about real-world flying before you can teach it.

[Sparker]

Of course, you have to know about real-world flying before you can teach it.

 

Not too many 200 hour CFIs that fit that category....

[FlyNHighNFast]

Not too many 200 hour CFIs that fit that category....

Lucky for me, my CFI does not fall into that category and I've had the opportunity to fly on some commercial jobs with him, we have gotten in and out of places with the R44 that I did not think were possible, I'm still a long way from being ready for that, but now I know it can be done.

 

Gomer: I agree on the looking off in the distance thing, I had an easier time hovering when I could look where I wanted to and now I can hover while looking anywhere but straight up.

[Linc]

Interestingly, it wasn't my instructor who first helped me hover, it was my classmate who told me, "When you hover, move everything a little bit." While that may not make sense to the instructors here, to students trying to learn, it made a lot of sense. I had 10 hours before I learned to hover, but actually only about an hour of practice at really hovering, everything else was the instructor riding the controls during takeoffs and landings. Only when we were in climb out would I actually be on the controls. Granted, for this job, I was learning "to fly" as an emergency procedure, in the event the pilot was incapacitated. Years later, when I was actually a student pilot, I flew most of the first flight without the instructor touching the controls.

 

Hover, to me, is the key to takeoffs, landings, decels, and autos. When correcting the errors of young pilots who have been blessed off by the instructors so that now I must fly with them, I work on their hovering skills to solve any number of other handling issues.

[joker]

In my ENTIRE 10 hrs TT, I have practiced hovering for 15 to 30 minutes every single lesson,

 

This means that in 10 hrs you spent from 150 to 300 minutes of hovering. From a quarter to a half!?

 

As a trained educator with speciality in physical & education, the idea to me of spending so much time on a high level motor skill straight off is absurd.

 

Nothing in my study or research tells me that this backward approach (so common in helicopter training) is the most efficient way to learn to hover. I am sad to say the late Flingwing, cannot be here. We both ferverantly agreed on this issue. Not surprising given our credentials in the area of physical education are similar.

 

Skill acquisition is best taught as a series of progressive steps - from easy to hard. That is the skills of hovering should be broken down and developed individually, and then brought together.

 

I have said this all before so won't repeat my philosophy on this matter. Suffice to say that I firmly believe too many poeple WASTE time doing hoverskills too early. No more than 5 minutes need to be spent in a lesson, just as a fun taster! The best hover practice is 'progressive' approaches. (The instructor takes over the approach later and later until the student is essentially hovering without knowing it.)

 

Gomer said it varies from student to student - and he is totally right. What sorts the good instructors from the poor is the ability to identify the learning style of the student. Despite this, the fundamentals of skill acquisition are pretty well documented. Why doesn't the helicopter world take a leaf from the education world sometimes, in their training methods?!

 

Now that I can hover while he ties his shoes, writes a letter home to Ireland, and watches videos on his portable The feeling of accomplishment is immeasurable!!!!

 

First of all, well done! Second of all - the thought of an instructor tying shoes, writing letter, and watching vids whilst a relatively new student is hovering scares the hell out of me!

 

Joker

[Gomer Pylot]

I don't agree with you, Joker, but it's a moot point. Hovering is hard, initially, and then, just like riding a bicycle, suddenly you can do it. If you can hover, you can do anything else necessary for flying a helicopter. If you can't hover, you can't fly a helicopter successfully. Spending many lessons gradually easing into hovering is, IMO a waste of the student's time and money. But as I said, the point is moot, because you'll continue to instruct the way you believe you should, and I won't be instructing at all, because I don't care to.

[Eric Hunt]

"By my 10th flight, I went solo. We were doing 180 autos on the third flight, IIRC. Of course, this was military training during the Vietnam era, and if you couldn't cut it, you went back to where you came from, so there was some incentive."

 

Gomer, we must have learned at the same time, I was solo in a Huey at 10 hrs too. But in those days, the instructor didn't really define what the hover entailed, he just handed over the controls and said "Stay here." And if you didn't, you didn't stay there for more than another day before shipping out.

 

But when I came back to instructing in the late 70s after years of operational flying, a miracle had occurred - people had discovered ATTITUDE, and when the student was told to look at the horizon instead of the blade of grass, it all fell into place. Instead of saying "It is like riding a bicycle, suddenly it just happens", it is more like "When the student listened to the instructor and controlled the attitude, he learned to hover."

 

Once the attitude is under control, it is just pressure on the cyclic to control position. THEN the student can move his visual reference to be out the side window, or over his shoulder, or through the chin bubble. Just like in The Real World. But you gotta learn in the training world before going out in the real world - times have changed for us dinosaurs, Gomer!