Should I train in my own brand new helicopter?

[cherminator]

I'm working towards owning my own brand new R44 for pleasure use after I go through the training. I've been told by a couple of people that I should train (at least the first ten hours or so) in a helicopter other than my own. I suspect this is because of the rough treatment it will recieve during this time frame.

 

Is this really a concern? Should I purchase a used one to train in then sell it off once I have completed my training? The training facility here in town only has turbines (at $1100/ hour), but they're willing to train me in my own machine if I purchase one.

 

I can get a low hour 300cbi for under $300k. Will I be able to get rid of it after my training, or should I just go ahead and purchase my new R44 and train in that?

[rick1128]

I'm working towards owning my own brand new R44 for pleasure use after I go through the training. I've been told by a couple of people that I should train (at least the first ten hours or so) in a helicopter other than my own. I suspect this is because of the rough treatment it will recieve during this time frame.

 

Is this really a concern? Should I purchase a used one to train in then sell it off once I have completed my training? The training facility here in town only has turbines (at $1100/ hour), but they're willing to train me in my own machine if I purchase one.

 

I can get a low hour 300cbi for under $300k. Will I be able to get rid of it after my training, or should I just go ahead and purchase my new R44 and train in that?

 

First of all you need to check to see if the instructors at your local training facility have Instructor certificates and that they meet the instructor requirements of SFAR 73. It appears from your post that it is likely they do not. That is a mandatory requirement. Based on my limited experience in the R44, I would say it is not a major concern about the rough treatment. The de-rated engine and the governor will prevent damage to the engine. I would say go ahead and just do it in the R44.

[hynesaviation]

I'm working towards owning my own brand new R44 for pleasure use after I go through the training. I've been told by a couple of people that I should train (at least the first ten hours or so) in a helicopter other than my own. I suspect this is because of the rough treatment it will recieve during this time frame.

 

Is this really a concern? Should I purchase a used one to train in then sell it off once I have completed my training? The training facility here in town only has turbines (at $1100/ hour), but they're willing to train me in my own machine if I purchase one.

 

I can get a low hour 300cbi for under $300k. Will I be able to get rid of it after my training, or should I just go ahead and purchase my new R44 and train in that?

 

I Think you should go for the purchase of the R44. You can't beat the operating cost especially when it comes to maintenance. (you really just looking at oil changes during the first 100hrs). Im not sure what the 300cbi maintenance schedule is during the 100hrs.

 

You won't be putting that much wear on your R44.

 

Make sure the instructor/helicopter is insured for training. That is very important.

 

I train in different types of helicopters here, Bell 47, Hiller, H269, Brantly and Robinsons. I like all helicopters but the Robinson has them all beat on maintenance.

 

Resale would be a big factor also. What are you wanting to do with the helicopter? Personal use? You can carry more people in the R44.

 

Train in your own ship to me is always good. For each hour you fly set aside money for operating cost. Basically paying yourself instead of a flight school.

[BOATFIXERGUY]

I agree with the other posts. You're not going to hurt your own bird doing flight training. You will be way ahead of the curve flying a machine that you know inside and out. You'll also get some very good "Owner Instruction" on your bird from your CFI...meaning the things you need to know as an owner to be safe and legal.

 

Good luck.

[Witch]

I wish I could buy a helicopter.

 

Go for your own bird, the R-44, and do what the other guys said. It'll be a better investment you in the long run.

 

Later

[lwalling]

I'm working towards owning my own brand new R44 for pleasure use after I go through the training. I've been told by a couple of people that I should train (at least the first ten hours or so) in a helicopter other than my own. I suspect this is because of the rough treatment it will recieve during this time frame.

 

Is this really a concern? Should I purchase a used one to train in then sell it off once I have completed my training? The training facility here in town only has turbines (at $1100/ hour), but they're willing to train me in my own machine if I purchase one.

 

I can get a low hour 300cbi for under $300k. Will I be able to get rid of it after my training, or should I just go ahead and purchase my new R44 and train in that?

 

Absolutely 100% train in someone ELSEs helicopter. Insuring a ship of your own as a student is extremely expensive. What is you over-speed during a training auto? Plus do you really want to do running landings and hover autos in your own ship .

 

I was where you are now, last year, and am 100% glad I decided to wait until my training was done. To be honest, if I had the opportunity to rent a ship for 30-50 more hours after the training I would have done that, rather than buying, but that was not an option in North Carolina with most outfits insurance restrictions.

 

I heard of a fellow recently that completed his ppl, bought a new ship (Raven 2), and accidentally flipped off the governor for a long time in flight... and over-sped his rotor system - $40k mistake. Would more flight time have helped? Hard to tell.

 

Definitely worth building some experience before plunking down the big bucks. Alternatively, if training in a R22, or you have the opportunity to pick up a super cheap older Raven or Astro, it MIGHT be worth buying to train in if you have alot of financial resources and can self-insure. If you don't feel you need hull insurance, you should be able to pick up liability with some restrictions on who you can train with (time wise) at a semi-reasonable price.

 

Just my two cents.

Edited February 18, 2008 by lwalling

[HeloJunkie]

I'm working towards owning my own brand new R44 for pleasure use after I go through the training. I've been told by a couple of people that I should train (at least the first ten hours or so) in a helicopter other than my own. I suspect this is because of the rough treatment it will recieve during this time frame.

 

Is this really a concern? Should I purchase a used one to train in then sell it off once I have completed my training? The training facility here in town only has turbines (at $1100/ hour), but they're willing to train me in my own machine if I purchase one.

 

I can get a low hour 300cbi for under $300k. Will I be able to get rid of it after my training, or should I just go ahead and purchase my new R44 and train in that?

 

 

Hey Cherminator -

 

 

I was where you were at not too long ago. I already had my rotor add on to my commercial fixed wing and was looking at buying a used turbine helicopter. In the end, I went with a new R44 that I picked up att he factory last week.

 

The facility where I train (Civic Helicopters in Carlsbad, CA) has a fleet of R22s and an R44 for training. I have flown the R44 but only to see what it was like before buying one of my own. After the purchase, I had the choice of renting the R44 or training in my own R44. I had ZERO time in an R22 and only 1 hour in the R44. I learned in a 300.

 

My final decision was to train in my own helicopter. I choose this route for several reasons. First, I wanted to train in my ship. My insurance ($17K for the first year) allows me to train in my helicopter, so I figured if I am paying the insurance, I should get the benefit of using my own helicopter in the process. Second, I could pay $450/hr to rent the flight school's R44, or $56/hr to fly my own (no I won't be keeping the 44 until its 2200 hour overhaul - I see an R66 inmy future). The more I fly it, the more economical that $17K worth of insurance was that I had just paid.

 

I saw one person respond about overspeeds and autos and I know there is some truth to those things, but frankly, I would be a little concerned if you had an instructor that allows those things to happen in your helicopter or theirs. My instructor has over 23,000 hours and frankly, I trust him with my life, I figure I can trust him to make sure I don't do something stupid with my new helicopter.

 

Third - I am going to work towards my instrument and commercial addons, and I figure the more in tune I am with my helicopter the better I will be. Yes, both my ship and the rental are R44s, but mine has 12 hours on it now and the rental has almost 600. They fly different. I want to fly and train in the ship that I am going to own for the next few years. I want to lean how my helicopter reacts to autos, with a new engine and new belts and new transmission....mostly because this is the helicopter that I will putting my loved ones in the back of eventually.

 

So as of today, I am almost 10 hours into training in my new helicopter, at times I feel like I have forgotten how to land....ah the easy landings of a 300....and other times I am grinning so hard I can't speak, but overall I am glad I choose to fly my own helicopter for the training. I wonder if I rolled it over if I would feel the same way, and frankly - in my mind, I would rather damage my own hardware then to damage someone else's property - but that is just me - and it doesn't matter if we are talking about my car, my boat, my plane or my helicopter - I would feel bad either way, but I would feel worse if I broke something that didn't belong to me.

 

 

Hope this helps...

[cherminator]

Absolutely 100% train in someone ELSEs helicopter. Insuring a ship of your own as a student is extremely expensive. What is you over-speed during a training auto? Plus do you really want to do running landings and hover autos in your own ship .

 

I was where you are now, last year, and am 100% glad I decided to wait until my training was done. To be honest, if I had the opportunity to rent a ship for 30-50 more hours after the training I would have done that, rather than buying, but that was not an option in North Carolina with most outfits insurance restrictions.

 

I heard of a fellow recently that completed his ppl, bought a new ship (Raven 2), and accidentally flipped off the governor for a long time in flight... and over-sped his rotor system - $40k mistake. Would more flight time have helped? Hard to tell.

 

Definitely worth building some experience before plunking down the big bucks. Alternatively, if training in a R22, or you have the opportunity to pick up a super cheap older Raven or Astro, it MIGHT be worth buying to train in if you have alot of financial resources and can self-insure. If you don't feel you need hull insurance, you should be able to pick up liability with some restrictions on who you can train with (time wise) at a semi-reasonable price.

 

Just my two cents.

 

But I can't train in someone elses helicopter as there aren't any other ones around here except the turbines, which are the wrong ship and the wrong price. There is an R44 available for training that I know of but it's a three hour round trip to get there every day.

 

If I get an older R44 is it fairly easy to sell off after I'm done my training?

[cherminator]

Hey Cherminator -

 

 

I was where you were at not too long ago. I already had my rotor add on to my commercial fixed wing and was looking at buying a used turbine helicopter. In the end, I went with a new R44 that I picked up att he factory last week.

 

The facility where I train (Civic Helicopters in Carlsbad, CA) has a fleet of R22s and an R44 for training. I have flown the R44 but only to see what it was like before buying one of my own. After the purchase, I had the choice of renting the R44 or training in my own R44. I had ZERO time in an R22 and only 1 hour in the R44. I learned in a 300.

 

My final decision was to train in my own helicopter. I choose this route for several reasons. First, I wanted to train in my ship. My insurance ($17K for the first year) allows me to train in my helicopter, so I figured if I am paying the insurance, I should get the benefit of using my own helicopter in the process. Second, I could pay $450/hr to rent the flight school's R44, or $56/hr to fly my own (no I won't be keeping the 44 until its 2200 hour overhaul - I see an R66 inmy future). The more I fly it, the more economical that $17K worth of insurance was that I had just paid.

 

I saw one person respond about overspeeds and autos and I know there is some truth to those things, but frankly, I would be a little concerned if you had an instructor that allows those things to happen in your helicopter or theirs. My instructor has over 23,000 hours and frankly, I trust him with my life, I figure I can trust him to make sure I don't do something stupid with my new helicopter.

 

Third - I am going to work towards my instrument and commercial addons, and I figure the more in tune I am with my helicopter the better I will be. Yes, both my ship and the rental are R44s, but mine has 12 hours on it now and the rental has almost 600. They fly different. I want to fly and train in the ship that I am going to own for the next few years. I want to lean how my helicopter reacts to autos, with a new engine and new belts and new transmission....mostly because this is the helicopter that I will putting my loved ones in the back of eventually.

 

So as of today, I am almost 10 hours into training in my new helicopter, at times I feel like I have forgotten how to land....ah the easy landings of a 300....and other times I am grinning so hard I can't speak, but overall I am glad I choose to fly my own helicopter for the training. I wonder if I rolled it over if I would feel the same way, and frankly - in my mind, I would rather damage my own hardware then to damage someone else's property - but that is just me - and it doesn't matter if we are talking about my car, my boat, my plane or my helicopter - I would feel bad either way, but I would feel worse if I broke something that didn't belong to me.

 

 

Hope this helps...

 

It does help, thank you.

 

You did most of your trainiing in a 300. Would you have started your training from day one in your brand new 44 if you could do it all over again?

[HeloJunkie]

It does help, thank you.

 

You did most of your trainiing in a 300. Would you have started your training from day one in your brand new 44 if you could do it all over again?

 

 

Looking back - I would say yes, I would have used my own new helicopter. But that is my personality. I would prefer to train in a new helicopter than in one that has been bashed around by 800 student pilots.

I rented at the time since I really didn't know how much I would enjoy flying the helicopters.

 

As a side note, I didn't fly helicopters for almost 2 years, came back and did a little touch up in the 300s (5 hours) and then purchased the R44, so its almost like learning to fly all over again - at least that is what it feels like!

[DEMO]

I'm working towards owning my own brand new R44 for pleasure use after I go through the training. I've been told by a couple of people that I should train (at least the first ten hours or so) in a helicopter other than my own. I suspect this is because of the rough treatment it will recieve during this time frame.

 

Is this really a concern? Should I purchase a used one to train in then sell it off once I have completed my training? The training facility here in town only has turbines (at $1100/ hour), but they're willing to train me in my own machine if I purchase one.

 

I can get a low hour 300cbi for under $300k. Will I be able to get rid of it after my training, or should I just go ahead and purchase my new R44 and train in that?

 

My .02

 

 

 

I know down her in Florida they have some programs when you purchase a helicopter the school rents it from you. You still have as much access to the bird as you want. The aircraft is managed by the flight school and generating revenue when you’re not flying. There are also a lot of tax benefits.

 

 

 

The school would still need to have a CFI meet the requirements of SFAR 73. You said your school only has turbine training @ 1,100.00/hr, they may welcome a R44 to get the training rate down and get more students in the door. Who knows, they may purchase it from you when you’re done, after all they will know the ship.

 

 

 

If you need specific info, PM me

[LeftPedal]

Hey, didn't I read somewhere that the SFAR 73 on the Robinson 22 and 44 are about to expire in March 2008 and that the SFAR 73 might only be extended on the 22 ?

[rick1128]

Hey, didn't I read somewhere that the SFAR 73 on the Robinson 22 and 44 are about to expire in March 2008 and that the SFAR 73 might only be extended on the 22 ?

 

That will make little if any difference to the insurance companies.

 

As for buying a used Robinson. A large number of the used ones on the market are close to the overhaul time. Once you do the math, it makes little sense to buy them. It appears to me that many flight schools view the Robinson as a throw away helicopter. Run it out and get rid of it. Don't worry about reserves. For that reason, I would not even consider doing a lease back on a Robinson.

[lwalling]

It's important to note in this case, if you do your own ship and make a mistake, if the rotors are spinning chances are you have a very very high deductible typically a percentage of the total hull value you define. Plus, if you don't buy with cash, you will need a 20% down payment at a minimum. So, if you make a mistake, pay $20k for insurance, and 20% down, you stand to lose all of that investment if you make a mistake (because of the high deductible)

 

Lots of positives and negatives to owning your own, or renting one. There are good and bad sides to both I think. I still am happy I paid for someone elses helicopter at this point, but really happy I have my own ship now with about 100 hours total time. It's a fricken blast!

 

Also, a quality instructor can still get distracted or make a (or allow you to make a) minor or major mistake especially training in an area with a good bit of traffic. Just because someone is a great instructor and has a ton of time does not mean they are perfect . This is true with anything not just rotorcraft.

 

Helojunkie did you get your insurance from Sutton James? They mentioned someone saw my post and contacted them recently. Good people. Lots of money for insurance though .

 

Hey Cherminator -

 

 

I was where you were at not too long ago. I already had my rotor add on to my commercial fixed wing and was looking at buying a used turbine helicopter. In the end, I went with a new R44 that I picked up att he factory last week.

 

The facility where I train (Civic Helicopters in Carlsbad, CA) has a fleet of R22s and an R44 for training. I have flown the R44 but only to see what it was like before buying one of my own. After the purchase, I had the choice of renting the R44 or training in my own R44. I had ZERO time in an R22 and only 1 hour in the R44. I learned in a 300.

 

My final decision was to train in my own helicopter. I choose this route for several reasons. First, I wanted to train in my ship. My insurance ($17K for the first year) allows me to train in my helicopter, so I figured if I am paying the insurance, I should get the benefit of using my own helicopter in the process. Second, I could pay $450/hr to rent the flight school's R44, or $56/hr to fly my own (no I won't be keeping the 44 until its 2200 hour overhaul - I see an R66 inmy future). The more I fly it, the more economical that $17K worth of insurance was that I had just paid.

 

I saw one person respond about overspeeds and autos and I know there is some truth to those things, but frankly, I would be a little concerned if you had an instructor that allows those things to happen in your helicopter or theirs. My instructor has over 23,000 hours and frankly, I trust him with my life, I figure I can trust him to make sure I don't do something stupid with my new helicopter.

 

Third - I am going to work towards my instrument and commercial addons, and I figure the more in tune I am with my helicopter the better I will be. Yes, both my ship and the rental are R44s, but mine has 12 hours on it now and the rental has almost 600. They fly different. I want to fly and train in the ship that I am going to own for the next few years. I want to lean how my helicopter reacts to autos, with a new engine and new belts and new transmission....mostly because this is the helicopter that I will putting my loved ones in the back of eventually.

 

So as of today, I am almost 10 hours into training in my new helicopter, at times I feel like I have forgotten how to land....ah the easy landings of a 300....and other times I am grinning so hard I can't speak, but overall I am glad I choose to fly my own helicopter for the training. I wonder if I rolled it over if I would feel the same way, and frankly - in my mind, I would rather damage my own hardware then to damage someone else's property - but that is just me - and it doesn't matter if we are talking about my car, my boat, my plane or my helicopter - I would feel bad either way, but I would feel worse if I broke something that didn't belong to me.

 

 

Hope this helps...

[cherminator]

It's important to note in this case, if you do your own ship and make a mistake, if the rotors are spinning chances are you have a very very high deductible typically a percentage of the total hull value you define. Plus, if you don't buy with cash, you will need a 20% down payment at a minimum. So, if you make a mistake, pay $20k for insurance, and 20% down, you stand to lose all of that investment if you make a mistake (because of the high deductible)

 

Lots of positives and negatives to owning your own, or renting one. There are good and bad sides to both I think. I still am happy I paid for someone elses helicopter at this point, but really happy I have my own ship now with about 100 hours total time. It's a fricken blast!

 

Also, a quality instructor can still get distracted or make a (or allow you to make a) minor or major mistake especially training in an area with a good bit of traffic. Just because someone is a great instructor and has a ton of time does not mean they are perfect . This is true with anything not just rotorcraft.

 

Helojunkie did you get your insurance from Sutton James? They mentioned someone saw my post and contacted them recently. Good people. Lots of money for insurance though .

 

I'm starting to think I should just get my ppl on one of their turbine machines (They even have an EC120). And buy my own R44 afterwards. It sounds like much less risk and headache. Other than being unusual, are there bad things to consider transitioning from a turbine to an R44?

 

Is it "doable"?

[mattfromomaha]

I'm curious, what is everyones' opinions on purchasing used helis that were used for training? I hate to hijack the thread, but I think this discussion may help the OP in his decision of new vs. used vs. rent vs. own. (I'm only an aspiring heli pilot...fixed wings for me until med school is finished!)

 

Obviously there's a spectrum where some birds were used by one very cautious owner-instructor and meticulously cared for while some had a ton of lower-time instructors and just enough maintenance to stay legal... Are most training maneuvers pretty benign or are overspeeds a big common problem? Are run-on landings damaging to the skids and other structural parts? What other things do you worry about and look for?

 

Overall, is it worth the savings to buy an R44 or R22 that's a couple years old with a few hundred hours of training time on it? For a private owner who would never accumulate 2200 hours in 12 years it is a bit of a waste to buy a brand new $400,000 Robinson when you could get a 2004 or 2005 R44 II with 500 or so hours for ~$300,000. That would certainly bring your per-hour cost down and many private owners would still not fly 1700 hours in 8 or 9 years remaining TBO.

 

Then again, you also don't want to buy one that's too old. Once you start factoring in the $200,000 or so for the rebuild it seems like buying a late Astro or early Raven and sending it to the factory in a couple years for the 12yr will end up costing nearly as much as just buying a brand new one now.

[rick1128]

I'm curious, what is everyones' opinions on purchasing used helis that were used for training? I hate to hijack the thread, but I think this discussion may help the OP in his decision of new vs. used vs. rent vs. own. (I'm only an aspiring heli pilot...fixed wings for me until med school is finished!)

 

Obviously there's a spectrum where some birds were used by one very cautious owner-instructor and meticulously cared for while some had a ton of lower-time instructors and just enough maintenance to stay legal... Are most training maneuvers pretty benign or are overspeeds a big common problem? Are run-on landings damaging to the skids and other structural parts? What other things do you worry about and look for?

 

Overall, is it worth the savings to buy an R44 or R22 that's a couple years old with a few hundred hours of training time on it? For a private owner who would never accumulate 2200 hours in 12 years it is a bit of a waste to buy a brand new $400,000 Robinson when you could get a 2004 or 2005 R44 II with 500 or so hours for ~$300,000. That would certainly bring your per-hour cost down and many private owners would still not fly 1700 hours in 8 or 9 years remaining TBO.

 

Then again, you also don't want to buy one that's too old. Once you start factoring in the $200,000 or so for the rebuild it seems like buying a late Astro or early Raven and sending it to the factory in a couple years for the 12yr will end up costing nearly as much as just buying a brand new one now.

 

It really depends on the school and the type of helicopter. The problem with buying a used Robinson is that they seem to be either brand new or totally run out. With very little in between. It also depends on what type of training was done on it. Instrument training puts little stress on the machine beyond the normal stress. Plus they are better equipped.

[crfracer]

It seems that one consideration may be to wait just a little while if possible and see what happens with all of those SSH trainers. Might get something with some lower time for very little money if they end up trying to get rid of them quick to get all the students with messed up loans out of a tight spot.

 

just a thought.

[rick1128]

It seems that one consideration may be to wait just a little while if possible and see what happens with all of those SSH trainers. Might get something with some lower time for very little money if they end up trying to get rid of them quick to get all the students with messed up loans out of a tight spot.

 

just a thought.

 

Don't think so. First of all there is a waiting list for new Robinsons. Second, considering the maintenance history of that company, I would think long and hard about buying one they used.

[fast03cobra]

I'm starting to think I should just get my ppl on one of their turbine machines (They even have an EC120). And buy my own R44 afterwards. It sounds like much less risk and headache. Other than being unusual, are there bad things to consider transitioning from a turbine to an R44?

 

Is it "doable"?

 

I wouldn't do it. Once you fly something like an EC120 or AS350 you won't want to go back to the R44....

[cherminator]

I wouldn't do it. Once you fly something like an EC120 or AS350 you won't want to go back to the R44....

 

I've been told by a couple of people that used EC120's are trickling back into the market because companies don't like their apparent lack of power to do work. Maybe I should go for a used EC120?

 

I am quite surprised at the useful load numbers between the two. An R44 with standard fuel will carry 810lbs of people/cargo. Maximum range with standard fuel is approx 348 nm. The EC120 will carry (correct me if I'm wrong) only 891 lbs of people/cargo with a full tank and a max range of 383nm.

 

I'm new to this helicopter stuff, but I would have thought such a larger a turbine machine would be capable of more.

 

I still love the EC120 however. My screensaver proves it. I guess you're getting alot more space, a little more useful load, a little more distance, a (much?) safer machine, but at a much larger cost to operate and maintain. I was told that it would be a wondeful family machine, and that is what I will be looking for.

 

Maybe a better purchase in the long run? Any comments or suggestions good or bad? (Can't wait to wander around Heli-Expo for a couple of days. I feel like a kid waiting for Christmas morning!)

Edited February 22, 2008 by cherminator

[gft]

If they don't like the EC 120 due to lack of power what makes you think you would like it?

I've been told by 120 owner that it's an expensive two place bird in warm climates-

 

Good business sense-

Train in somebody elses bird with their insurance.

 

gft

[cherminator]

If they don't like the EC 120 due to lack of power what makes you think you would like it?

I've been told by 120 owner that it's an expensive two place bird in warm climates-

 

Good business sense-

Train in somebody elses bird with their insurance.

 

gft

 

That's a good point gft.

 

I guess I would like it because of the extra room (I'm 6'2" and 225lbs) for family and some light luggage. I'm also assuming it would be a safer machine than an R44? That guy that told me that about not using it for work did say that it would be a wonderful family machine, so I'm not sure why he believes it to be good at one thing but bad for the other. Another factor is that I live up here in Canada where the climate is moderate to cold most of the time.

 

From a financial point of view, would a used EC120 hold it's value better over time than a new R44? Another question I would like to find the answer to is which one is quieter, as I live on ten acres and hope to keep my bird on the property without upsetting the neighbors too much.

 

Another plus is I could train in the local training school's EC120 as they have one, and purchase a used on after I get my PPL. They don't have any R22's or R44's.

 

I also don't understand why I can't find any for sale on the Internet if companies are selling them off. Someone must be buying them before they hit the classifieds, but who and why if they are supposedly so under-powered?

 

And finally, they sure are pretty.

[K-38]

As a private owner flying for pleasure an R-44 Raven 2 should be a pretty good fit.

[fast03cobra]

I only mentioned the EC120 since it's a turbined powered helo. You could replace my sentence with EC130, Bell 206, 407, A109 etc.. I was just trying to say that once you fly or train in a turbine powered helicopter, I think you'd want to stay in one... As far as economically speaking you're better off with a piston helo for personal use.