Butch Grafton - AvWeb Interview

BOATFIXERGUY · February 29, 2008

Here's a radio interview on AvWeb with Butch Grafton. Interesting.

"THE STATE OF HELICOPTERS, WITH PROFESSIONAL HELICOPTER PILOTS ASSOCIATION PRESIDENT BUTCH GRAFTON

While only about 5% of all pilots in the U.S. fly helicopters, the men and women who do it for a living represent a truly a unique breed of aviator. They're out there in all kinds of weather, transporting sick and injured people to the hospital, landing on floating oil rigs, hovering over accident scenes with TV news cameras rolling, and patrolling utility lines over unforgiving terrain. Learning to fly helicopters isn't easy, and becoming a commercial helicopter pilot is even tougher. Which is one of the reasons we've taken such great interest recently in the fate of the more than 2,500 trainees who were displaced when Silver State Helicopters filed for bankruptcy earlier this month. To get a better sense of what's going on in the helicopter industry, AVweb's Meredith Saini spoke with Butch Grafton, president of the Professional Helicopter Pilots Association. The association represents 6,000 helicopter pilots worldwide."

http://www.avweb.com/podcast/files/2008-02-27.mp3

(8.5 MB, 9:16)"

HelliBoy · February 29, 2008

I loved the part where he says 'high paying jobs' is a relative term. It is comforting to know he thinks salaries are on their way up tho. When so much of the discussion of the future centers around offshore flying and thats where we see the progressive steps being taken I have to wonder if the utility/fire side of the industry is going to be caught with their pants down. There are very few places that teach longlining skills in-house and just wishing longline pilots into existence isnt going to cut it when the old timers do hang it up. Who knows though, I've heard stories from friends with no VR experience being told to hook the line up and go do the job as their first external load experience.

Rogue · February 29, 2008

One recurring thing I keep hearing is - talking about Pilots entering the "job market" but meaning or referring to 1000+ hour pilots. I just think its a real shame that CFIs aren't considered in that group and that it is just "acceptable" that a newly minted pilot should have to suffer or "pay their dues" so to speak. After incurring 50 - 70k in debt for training costs I believe that a CFI should make at least 36k, how else are you going to replace these retiring Vietnam era pilots if people simply can't afford to go bankrupt to become a pilot. Its just something I feel is overlooked or ignored completely when talking about brining in the new era of pilots and I also feel it something that will need to be addressed.

bqmassey · March 1, 2008

One recurring thing I keep hearing is - talking about Pilots entering the "job market" but meaning or referring to 1000+ hour pilots. I just think its a real shame that CFIs aren't considered in that group and that it is just "acceptable" that a newly minted pilot should have to suffer or "pay their dues" so to speak. After incurring 50 - 70k in debt for training costs I believe that a CFI should make at least 36k, how else are you going to replace these retiring Vietnam era pilots if people simply can't afford to go bankrupt to become a pilot. Its just something I feel is overlooked or ignored completely when talking about brining in the new era of pilots and I also feel it something that will need to be addressed.

In my opinion, it's a shame that CFI pay is so low that it's usually only inexperienced pilots willing to take the job. I'm lucky in that I'll be training with a 6000hr CFI, most others don't get that opportunity. You'd think that 50-70k would always get you an experienced instructor.

Rogue · March 1, 2008

Yes I concur, as I studied up on becoming a Pilot I was quite shocked honestly that most instructors are newly minted pilots with little to no "real world" experience, not that it isn't possible to be a good pilot with a good skillset with only a couple of hundred hours under the belt... it just sounded bassackerds to me!!! Yes I'd feel much better about my 50-70k worth going to a very experienced pilot! and I also feel the same about instructing myself as you do bgmassey, how am I to do a good job of it when I really haven't learned much myself. more two cents worth...

Edited March 1, 2008 by Rogue

fry · March 1, 2008

One recurring thing I keep hearing is - talking about Pilots entering the "job market" but meaning or referring to 1000+ hour pilots. I just think its a real shame that CFIs aren't considered in that group and that it is just "acceptable" that a newly minted pilot should have to suffer or "pay their dues" so to speak. After incurring 50 - 70k in debt for training costs I believe that a CFI should make at least 36k, how else are you going to replace these retiring Vietnam era pilots if people simply can't afford to go bankrupt to become a pilot. Its just something I feel is overlooked or ignored completely when talking about brining in the new era of pilots and I also feel it something that will need to be addressed.

The CFI period is an apprenticeship. The CFI pay is not a function how much you paid for your training it is related to the income you can generate for an employer (that's income...revenue less all the other costs the employer incurs). Since no operator is going to risk a mult-million dollar aircraft to a newly minted 200 hour pilot the only jobs available to those folks are in training aircraft. And training aircraft only generate training revenue...i.e., what student pilots can and are willing to pay.

Here's a post by Gomer from JH from a thread about the job market post-SSH:

I really don’t believe that the SSH debacle is going to flood the market with pilots. Reasons listed below.

Most operators are taking a very hard look at applicants with Silver State training in there back ground, including log book discrepancies and Aeronautical knowledge. I know my company has personally interviewed 10-15 and only 1 got hired. The one happened to be a DPE with thousands of hours.

Students that weren’t able to complete there training are not likely to go out and spend another 50-70k for additional training. Especially to get a CFI job and wait another three years until they’ve 1,000 hours or 1,500 which a lot of operators want now. The days of getting your 1,000 hours in a year are long gone boys, the training environment is coming on some lean times.

In the Gulf right now the Big Three are hurting for some pilots, however it’s not the low end guys with 2,000 hours or less. They are losing the 10,000 hour multi engine IFR Captains. It takes a long time to replace all of that experience. We have too many of the 1-2,000 hour guys. Most of them are sitting around on spare aircraft and flying 5-10 hours a hitch.

For the CFI’s that lost there jobs and where close to 1,000 hours. Are in a real spot being so close yet like listed above most operators are finding reason not to hire these SSH guys. I don’t think it’s fair that the operators are doing this but nobody wants to be the company to have a Silver Stater Ball one of there aircraft up. I.E. Airlog already had it happen.

I’m sorry that this reply is not more upbeat however that’s the way this industry is very fickle. I would imagine that 20% of all the people impacted by SSH will in the end prevail and make it to the commercial jobs. Remember it will be hard and maybe painful. I’ve found though it will make that much more sweet when people keep saying you can’t to prove everyone wrong.

Rather than worrying about the rate of pay for CFIs you might just be thankful to be getting whatever hours you're able to get and learn all you can from that stick time.

Rogue · March 1, 2008

I know the status quo but as a prototypical mid life crisis career changing kind of dude, how much money I am able to make as a CFI to be able to you know do stuff like pay my car payments and car insurance is a significant factor in how or if I will decide to follow through on this endeavor. In this light the amount of money a CFI can make greatly concerns me. In my own personal situation I've decided to pay off as much as I can and also save up as much as I can before I start on this journey. I get what you are trying to say FRY... I'M just saying this is roadblock for I'm sure more then just me.

Edited March 1, 2008 by Rogue

Chi-town · March 1, 2008

I know the status quo but as a prototypical mid life crisis career changing kind of dude, how much money I am able to make as a CFI to be able to you know do stuff like pay my car payments and car insurance is a significant factor in how or if I will decide to follow through on this endeavor. In this light the amount of money a CFI can make greatly concerns me. In my own personal situation I've decided to pay off as much as I can and also save up as much as I can before I start on this journey. I get what you are trying to say FRY... I'M just saying this is roadblock for I'm sure more then just me.

This may come off as unsympathetic, but this is the way it is. If being a helicopter pilot were easy, everyone would do it. At 30-something years old, I think it would be great to be an Agent for a professional sports athlete or movie star. This "dream" would require law school at an ivy league institution, then paying my dues in a mail room at CAA or some other agency before one day getting my break.

How about if I wanted to become a plastic surgeon? Well now I have to go through 5-7 years of medical school, then residency where I wouldn't get paid much and I would average as much sleep in a month as a Silver State Student gets flight time in the same month.

The fact is that every profession requires you to pay your dues. My other point is that some "dreams" were never meant to be. Today's society tells kids that they can achieve whatever they want as long as they believe. Well, I'm not one to shoot down dreams but depending on your life situation (age, wife, kids, money, ability, intelligence) some dreams are simply unattainable. Yes, there is that one tenth of one percent who beat the odds, but again, that is the exception.

CFI pay isn't going up any time soon. Hour requirements for commercial jobs aren't going down any time soon. Getting to 1,000 hours has become harder to reach. Those are the realities that won't change no matter how much you may hope it does.

www.despair.com has a great page of "Demotivators" My favorite quote being "Dreams: Never be afraid to share your dreams with the world, because there's nothing the world loves more than the taste of really sweet dreams."

Edited March 1, 2008 by Chi-town

Rogue · March 1, 2008

*sigh* I know that's the way it is.... *sigh*

Some people accept that, some people try to change it. If all these vietnam era pilots are going to retire, and the industry grows the 13% that is expected and now all of a sudden there is a huge lack of availible pilots well let's see why.... hmmm... maybe because CFI pay sucks! In my line of business we identify the problem, then we identify the solution to the problem and then we implement the solution - its ingrained into the way I think after 15 years of being an ASE Master Technician, I am thoroughly aware of what it means to pay your dues however that shouldn't have to mean that to pay your dues you should not be adequately compensated while doing so. I have trained many a technician over the years I have always fought with my boss for their right to make money - why? because how in the heck are you supposed to be able to focus on the task at hand when you are more worried about being able to put food on the table. Its called Maslow's hiearchy of needs, look it up, after proving it to my boss over and over and over again I have proved beyond a reasonable doubt that we produced a higher level of technician when they were adequately compensated. If you listened to the radio broadcast the subject matter is about the state of the industry including the training segment and all I am doing is propagating some discussion on the matter. Will I change the industry? I doubt it. Will I try, you bet I will. Sorry I can't help it I try to make things better and not just turn a blind eye to it just because "that's the way it is". Maybe you should try to put the same amount of energy into providing solutions instead of preaching about why what is is.

Chi-town · March 1, 2008

*sigh* I know that's the way it is.... *sigh*

Some people accept that, some people try to change it. If all these vietnam era pilots are going to retire, and the industry grows the 13% that is expected and now all of a sudden there is a huge lack of availible pilots well let's see why.... hmmm... maybe because CFI pay sucks! In my line of business we identify the problem, then we identify the solution to the problem and then we implement the solution - its ingrained into the way I think after 15 years of being an ASE Master Technician, I am thoroughly aware of what it means to pay your dues however that shouldn't have to mean that to pay your dues you should not be adequately compensated while doing so. I have trained many a technician over the years I have always fought with my boss for their right to make money - why? because how in the heck are you supposed to be able to focus on the task at hand when you are more worried about being able to put food on the table. Its called Maslow's hiearchy of needs, look it up, after proving it to my boss over and over and over again I have proved beyond a reasonable doubt that we produced a higher level of technician when they were adequately compensated. If you listened to the radio broadcast the subject matter is about the state of the industry including the training segment and all I am doing is propagating some discussion on the matter. Will I change the industry? I doubt it. Will I try, you bet I will. Sorry I can't help it I try to make things better and not just turn a blind eye to it just because "that's the way it is". Maybe you should try to put the same amount of energy into providing solutions instead of preaching about why what is is.

Rogue, do your best. Not trying to preach. Just providing my insight into the industry. I won't waste any energy trying to change it because I don't think it's broken. Higher paid CFIs, will mean higher tuition costs, will mean less of those "much needed" pilots. Many people smarter than you or I (I am well aware of Maslow's Pyramid) have tried to skin this cat. Go take a look at the training models in Europe, Canada, and Australia. We have it pretty good compared to them.

Like I said, I didn't mean to be cruel. Just stating the facts of life.

Rogue · March 2, 2008

It doesn't necessarily have to cost more. Say the owner of a school has three new students start every month. Say he requires you buy blocks of ten hours. Take that money and put it in a thirty day money market. Do this every month with every new set of students. Put the interest gained off this money into a seperate account until that account is large enough to buy its own money market funds. Use this money to adequately pay a CFI. This is called equity financing, Business 101 - not really that hard. There are ways it can be done it just takes someone to do it, I really hope the brightest minds of the industry could come up with that on their own because I'm really not that smart of a guy.

I know you weren't being cruel, however I wasn't talking about me or my situation I was talking about the state of the industry and what the possibilities could be. The status quo remains the status quo it is changed and like it or not this industry will change just as mine has. I wish I could tinker on 69 Chevelle carburetors all day but the fact is putting cold air intakes on some girl's Honda pays the bills. I guess I'm just cut from different cloth than you because I believe that if you can dream it then it can become real - take Steve Jobs for example - he imagined what computers could be and here we are talking on one!

GoodGrief · March 2, 2008

The student paid $30/hour to the company for my service. I got $9/hour from the company, no benefits, no nothing.

Always thought that was not fair...

Rogue · March 2, 2008

Well... there is the light bills, insurance, etc, etc that comes out of that money also but 9 does seem pretty low.

I'd like to comment on Chi-town saying he doesn't think there is anything wrong, well.... if you look at it objectively you could fairly say that the entire training industry is a Ponzi or pyramid scheme since no school is able to hire all of its graduates! If everyone who started ( I know not everybody finishes this is just for discussions sake ) finished then where would they all work? So I'd say that yes there is definetly something wrong with the business model being used, maybe just maybe the dropout rate is so high because people are able to figure this out at some point during their training and well.... part of being a pilot is making good decisions so who would continue on with their training when the chances of reaching the end are slim to none!?! The current curriculum supports pilots who make poor decisions, I don't believe that to be a system without its flaws.

mechanic · March 2, 2008

I don't know if any of you have just browsed thru the Occupational Outlook Handbook? I have looked at several different fields and types of jobs, before attempting the helicopter route.

I chose this one area for an example, but there are many listed that are simular. This one has lots of competition and lots of time and money invested to get to the good jobs. Pay is also close to helicopter pay ranges, though slightly higher.

Biological Scientists

Education. A Ph.D. degree usually is necessary for independent research, industrial research, and college teaching, as well as for advancement to administrative positions. A master's degree is sufficient for some jobs in applied research, product development, management, or inspection; it also may qualify one to work as a research technician or a teacher. The bachelor's degree is adequate for some nonresearch jobs. For example, graduates with a bachelor's degree may start as biological scientists in testing and inspection or may work in jobs related to biological science, such as technical sales or service representatives. Some work as research assistants, laboratory technicians, or high school biology teachers.

Other qualifications. Biological scientists should be able to work independently or as part of a team and be able to communicate clearly and concisely, both orally and in writing. Those in private industry, especially those who aspire to management or administrative positions, should possess strong business and communication skills and be familiar with regulatory issues and marketing and management techniques. Those doing field research in remote areas must have physical stamina. Biological scientists also must have patience and self-discipline to conduct long and detailed research projects.

Job prospects. Doctoral degree holders are expected to face competition for basic research positions. Furthermore, should the number of advanced degrees awarded continue to grow, applicants for research grants are likely to face even more competition. Currently, about 1 in 4 grant proposals are approved for long-term research projects. In addition, applied research positions in private industry may become more difficult to obtain if increasing numbers of scientists seek jobs in private industry because of the competitive job market for independent research positions in universities and for college and university faculty.

Prospective marine biology students should be aware that those who would like to enter this specialty far outnumber the very few openings that occur each year for the type of glamorous research jobs that many would like to obtain. Almost all marine biologists who do basic research have a Ph.D.

People with bachelor's and master's degrees are expected to have more opportunities in nonscientist jobs related to biology. The number of science-related jobs in sales, marketing, and research management is expected to exceed the number of independent research positions. Non-Ph.D.s also may fill positions as science or engineering technicians or as medical health technologists and technicians. Some become high school biology teachers.

Biological scientists are less likely to lose their jobs during recessions than are those in many other occupations because many are employed on long-term research projects. However, an economic downturn could influence the amount of money allocated to new research and development efforts, particularly in areas of risky or innovative research. An economic downturn also could limit the possibility of extension or renewal of existing projects.

Earnings. Median annual earnings of biochemists and biophysicists were $76,320 in 2006. The middle 50 percent earned between $53,390 and $100,060. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $40,820, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $129,510. Median annual earnings of biochemists and biophysicists employed in scientific research and development services were $79,990 in 2006.

Median annual earnings of microbiologists were 57,980 in 2006. The middle 50 percent earned between $43,850 and $80,550. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $35,460, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $108,270.

Median annual earnings of zoologists and wildlife biologists were $53,300 in 2006. The middle 50 percent earned between $41,400 and $67,200. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $32,800, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $84,580.

According to the National Association of Colleges and Employers, beginning salary offers in 2007 averaged $34,953 a year for bachelor's degree recipients in biological and life sciences.

In the Federal Government in 2007, general biological scientists earned an average salary of $72,146; microbiologists, $87,206; ecologists, $76,511; physiologists, $100,745; geneticists, $91,470; zoologists, $110,456; and botanists, $67,218.

Rogue · March 2, 2008

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos107.htm

They don't break it down for Helicopter Pilots.

mechanic · March 2, 2008

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos107.htm

They don't break it down for Helicopter Pilots.

Yes, I know they don't. My post was just one example of a difficult to achieve, costly, competitive occupation that paid simular to helicopter pilot salaries. I was pointing out that there are more jobs out there like the heli industry that requires dedication, time, and a passion for the job,to get to where you want to be.

I don't have a BS/MS/PHD and make the low end of some of those Scientist occupations. I didn't even have to pay for my education, the USAF did. On the other hand, I'll never see the higher end of the scale wrenching in my field either.

Rogue · March 3, 2008

I heard that, when I was recruited for technician training they threw out big numbers out there like $80 grand. I've met two guys who worked for Mercedes dealers in my lifetime that both worked in large cities that were the only ones I've ever met that made $80 grand as a repair technician. Conversely I know a few Detroit, Cummins and Allison certified guys and they do pretty good to knock down $60 grand, I'm on pace myself to hit $60 this year, that will be a first. I want to change careers for reasons other than money. I don't believe any field is easy or without its drawbacks. I survived for many a year in the 20k range until I cut my teeth so to speak. I only want to be able to eat Ramen noodles AND pay my car note! hahahaha! and that's only after I put back enough safety margin to cover the mortgage!