After OCS, then WO1 ??

[dlaw89]

I was told by a credible source that per NGB regs, someone can complete OCS, but the elect to become a WO1 instead of a 2nd Lt. Any truth to this?

 

I'm undecided as far as whether I'd want to take the commissioned or warrant route hence the question. Flying more (warrant) isn't necessarily a better situation for me.

[Cantankerously]

I don't think it works that way.

[Dnr032]

The simple answer to your question is Yes and No.

NGR 600-101:
http://www.ngbpdc.ngb.army.mil/pubs/600/ngr_600_101.pdf

2-6. Procurement Sources
b. Former Officers and Warrant Officers, to include Officers of other uniformed services who have been determined qualified for appointment by proper authority. NOTE: Warrant Officer applicants for rated aviation positions are exempt from DA MOS proponent approval provided they are determined fully qualified by the State Army Aviation Officer (SAAO), the State CCWO, and a FRB.

And

2-8. Predetermination
d. The requirements of subparagraphs b and c above are not applicable to the following ―
(3) Rated aviator Commissioned Officers and Warrant Officers who are determined to be fully qualified for the assigned MOS by the State Army Aviation Officer and State CCWO.

Notice that both of these parts of the Regulation use the term qualified and rated (I added the emphasis). So Yes, there are provisions to take a qualified officer in an MOS that has a similar WO skill and directly appoint them as a WO in the Army Guard. An example would be an Special Forces officer coming from active duty and taking a slot in an SF guard unit as a WO.

The term Rated aviator means that an officer, either Commissioned or Warrant, has completed an initial flight school from any branch of the Armed Services and has been awarded a pilot designation and pilot wings. It is very common to have WO's in a Guard unit that were former CPT's on active duty, not just from the Army, but also from the other branches of the military.

I hate to be the one to tell you, but as a brand new 2LT straight out of OCS, having not attended Officer Basic Course, you are not qualified for squat. You are not even considered 'branch qualified' until you attend the Officer's Advanced Course and have Commanded a Company as a Captain. So the idea that you can go to a state, have that State send you to OCS, graduate from OCS and then declare that you want to be a WO and then be appointed as a WO is not accurate. Since you would not be rated and therefore not qualified, you would have to submit a WOCS packet and go back to the beginning with WOCS.

However...... I do know a pilot, who went to IERW as a 2LT. As soon as he returned to his home state, he said he wanted to be a WO, submitted the packet and became a WO1. He is now a CW4. Once you become 'rated' more options are available to you, especially in the Guard.

 

So I go back to my original answer: Yes it is possible, but No not for you straight out of OCS.

I hope this helps....

[dlaw89]

Why would you have to go back to the beginning with WOCS if you already went to OCS? See top of page 7 in the PDF, number (4). I'm just trying to determine if OCS can be used in lieu of WOCS alone. I realize for flight you'd still have to do BOLC, IERW, etc.

 

If I'm missing something please let me know. Thanks for the input.

[Dnr032]

I believe what you are referencing is 2-10. Appointment Grade. You have to read AR's and other military regulations in order by chapter.

 

My first reference is 2-6. Procurement Sources which describes where appointment as a Warrant Officers in the Guard may come from and the associated qualifications.

 

My second reference is 2-8. Predetermination which further describes the packet "Prior to entry into the WOES, an applicant must submit a predetermination packet, through their TAG, through Warrant Officer Branch (ARNG-HRH-W), to the specific DA MOS Proponent requesting a review of the applicant's technical qualifications." The reference above, 2-8 d(3) simply states that if you are a rated aviator, you do not have to submit this packet to determine your technical qualifications for an appointment as a Warrant Officer.

 

I believe you are trying to jump straight to 2-10. Appointment Grade. Notice that 2-9 is ​Appointment Process. See the logical progression and process? 2-10, Appointment Grade will only apply if you have met the requirements for all the previous sections and are actually being appointed by the NGB as an Warrant Officer. There are certain conditions, both enlisted and officer, which allow you to be appointed as a CW2 vs a WO1.

 

So, 2-10 Appointment Grade does not apply to you as a 2LT straight out of OCS because you are neither qualified nor rated.

 

Why would you have to submit a WOC packet and start over? As an un-rated 2LT, you do not meet the direct appointment Procurement Sources of 2-6 or the Predetermination of qualifications of 2-8. You are simply in a no-man's-land of having been commissioned through OCS but not meeting the pre-qualifications and requirements of a direct appointment as a Warrant Officer in the Guard. So you would either have to go to IERW as an officer or submit a packet to WOCS.

 

Make sense?

[dlaw89]

I understand what you're saying, but I found this thread below that throws me off a little. In the link below, take a look at the last post from "dnall" on page 1, and the first post from "matthew.ritchie" on page 2. What are they referring to? I believe both these guys are pretty credible being officer recruiters in the Guard, but let me know what you think. Thanks.

 

http://www.nationalguard.com/forums/forum/guard-forums-archive/archive-2009/serving-ae/9361-aviation-officer-strength-manager-question

[zVo]

The Guard/Reserve has frequently done "the o-grade-to-warrant switcheroo" (as I've heard if affectionately called) for prior-service aviation officers that want to serve as a warrant in the Guard or Reserve. The paperwork shuffle involved is enormous, so it's not a quick administrative fix. Since graduating OCS requires one to take upon a commission -- then resign it -- only to become appointed, I'm not sure why anyone would even bother sending one to OCS to begin with since WOCS is shorter and there's no mess involved.

 

As far as what "matthew.ritchie" says in page two, he's suggesting that the E-7 in the Navy wanting to fly helicopters in the ARNG as a warrant go to OCS, somehow drop a packet for WOFT while attending OCS, get accepted for WOFT while attending OCS, and then at OCS graduation decline commission as a 2LT, then sign paperwork for WOFT and while also receiving a waiver for WOCS stating that said candidate had already attended an officer-producing school (almost like CLEP-ing out) and then receive appointment as a WO1 instead.

 

That is far from ideal and the only way something as asinine as that is going to get a thumbs up is if there's a prior agreement between the State Aviation Officer and NGB accessions people that they want you badly. I'm active duty so the way the ARNG works is very different that what I'm accustomed to, but any Guard people that I know that took some obscure path to get where they were had either been already hugely successful in their military career in whatever branch they were serving *OR* their civilian credentials were through the roof (e.g. civilian helicopter pilot flying GOM for 10+ years with 6,000 flight hours or the airline pilot I met who was 44 and had 20+ years of jet experience).

Edited March 20, 2015 by zVo

[Dnr032]

When I first started reading the discussion threads you linked, I was at first thinking..... "OK, maybe this Major Ritchie at NGB knows of some other obscure Guard personnel regulation. He is the Guard officer personnel guru. Maybe OCS for WOC is doable." Then he referenced the same NGR 600-101. The very next thing to do is check the dates.....

 

Unfortunately, the discussion form thread you reference is dated May 2009. The current date on NGR 600-101 is Sept 2014. Personnel Policies, Waivers and Regulations are always in a state of flux- mostly driven by the needs at the time. In 2009 we were fighting two wars on two fronts. The active military was trying to graduate 1500 aviators a year from IERW. You know what those numbers are now. Plus the AD is kicking qualified aviators out (OH-58D) so those pilots are filling the Guard slots up fast. Timing is everything and right now is not a good time for anything that requires extra work. Just read the waiver threads for AD WOCS.

 

I went back and re-checked 2-6. Procurement Sources. Unfortunately, the current regulation does not specifically list OCS as a procurement source for an appointment as a Warrant Officer in the National Guard.

 

So, what are you doing now? Are you currently in a Regional OCS Guard Academy? Are you trying to commission or do you just want to get in the Guard as an Warrant Aviator, going street to seat? What are you trying to do?

 

I served 27 years in the Guard. I had a great time and was fortunate to be afforded an abundance of opportunities. However, the #1 thing I learned from 27 years of Guard service is that NOTHING is totally impossible. There is almost always a waiver process for anything. It is just a matter of finding the right unit, enduring the endless months of paperwork and ass-pain required, all while working hard as a current member of that unit.

 

So I go back to my previous question, What are you doing right now and what are you trying to do in the Guard?

[Ja88Af]

I'm in at Rucker right now and we have a guy in our class (flight school) who was a 2LT and he decided to switch to Warrant, no WOCS for him.

 

Commissioned officers fly much less than Warrants (as rank progresses) because the Army focuses on priming them to be commanders and such.

[cptamerica2]

So here's how it works...

I was a CPT and am an OCS grad. I resigned my commission and am currently a WO1 in B co.

 

You accept your commission as an LT upon completion of OCS. Your service obligation is 3 years. Once you have completed your time, you go through the selection board just like everyone else applying for WOFT. If selected, you will resign and re-appoint as a WO1 prior to reporting to Rucker. If you made 1LT prior to bring selected, you will "fast-track" to CW2. The process takes 3-6 months.

[cptamerica2]

Oh yeah...

 

You will not attend WOCS or WOBC since you theoretically already completed OCS and BOLC. You go straight to Dunker/SERE, and await common core like everybody else

[Joe_P148]

So here's how it works...

I was a CPT and am an OCS grad. I resigned my commission and am currently a WO1 in B co.

 

You accept your commission as an LT upon completion of OCS. Your service obligation is 3 years. Once you have completed your time, you go through the selection board just like everyone else applying for WOFT. If selected, you will resign and re-appoint as a WO1 prior to reporting to Rucker. If you made 1LT prior to bring selected, you will "fast-track" to CW2. The process takes 3-6 months.

You also board for CW3, 2 years faster than your peers.

[cptamerica2]

Did not know that...Thanks Joe!

[Yamer]

So if you fast track straight to CW2 from 1LT.... and you were a CPT.... why are you a W1?

 

does that take effect after flight school?

[cptamerica2]

The promotion paperwork can't be done till you Inprocess Rucker. Then it takes anywhere from 3-6 months for the CW2 orders to get cut. We (there are 6 of us) just arrived in February, and were told anywhere from May to August. We're just waiting on the Army.

[Yamer]

Oh ok, just curious

[dondlhmn]

It was a LOONG time ago (1982) and things may have changed since I took a direct from CW2 to 1LT, but I sure wished a lot of times that I hadn't done that and stayed a Warrant. I don't deal well/put up with whiners and folks that think they are just too special to do things the "Army way"....I spent 90% of my "people time" on about 10% of my pilots...what a PITA!!.....and, from what I get from my buddies that are still IPs at Rucker and dealing with Army Flight School, there are WWAAYY too many of those around now days.The only time I was glad I did take the direct was when I got PCS'd to a slot that you had to be Fixed Wing qualified for, so i went to the FW Q course enroute to the new duty station. It just didn't happen that way for Warrants in those days....no "luck of the draw" for them. I don't know how that all works now. Over the course of my career I flew HUEYs (yeah..those DINOSAURS!), UH-60s, U-21s (more DINOSAURS) and C-12s. Had all the fun I could stand and retired!!