RkyMtnHI Posted July 6, 2008 Report Share Posted July 6, 2008 Hi all, i am back from the summer vacation, i was on a lake with no internet connection so i missed VR! I finally got to fly the EC 120 this past weekend and wanted to share. After taking the Factory course at Rotors i was really looking forward to flying the ship, but also expected it to spoil me. I was right! What an amazing Helicopter, the first thing i have to say is that i didn't even notice the difference in the peddles or translating tendency, i was worried that at my low time (~80 hours) it would be an issue.. not at all. Hovering was quite easy as was take off and approach. The autos are like flying, hard to tell the diff with tons of inertia (we did power-on only) Set downs and liftoffs are a little complicated compared to the 333 or 44, but not that much of an issue, closer to the 44. I admit that it is possible someone with more hours may see/feel more than i, but others have told me exactly the same. The ship will really get out of town, it's very fast and you really notice it in the turns. It was odd to have to keep a little left peddle in during flight, just a little. The view from inside is amazing, both from the front and rear, i flew one leg from the back seat and took photos out of the opened door... it's very nice to be able to open the rear sliding door in flight (under 80 kts). There is also tons of room in the back, with three seats for passengers. The A/C will freeze you out and has almost no effect on your power, however fuel burn increases a bit. As i said in my review of the factory course at Rotors, the instruments are the best part of the ship, so easy to keep track of your engine numbers on the VMED. We did a simulated hydraulics failures while in flight, that was an eye opener to say the least; the accumulators kept the power to the MR for about five minutes maybe, (it depends on how much you manipulate the controls) and then Bam!! The cyclic is not too bad, but the collective is like holding 40 or 50 lbs up with only your left hand, and that is not an exaggeration. On the outbound leg the owner and pilot flew their approach to landing w/o hydraulics all the way down (something i don't think i could have done, especially with my hands clammy already from being nervous).. The temp was around 30c, with three people and 220lbs of fuel we had plenty of power, people tell me that it's weak at this altitude in the summer, i sure didn't notice it. Maybe compared to other turbines it would be, but time will tell. On my leg i forgot to turn on my bose noise canceling, didn't even notice it the whole flight, it's a very quite machine. There were some gents down from Nebraska flying her last week... altho the owner flies almost every day he is very generous with his toy, so if you want to get a flight in call Rotors... later, dp Thanks Gooey!! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotorrodent Posted July 6, 2008 Report Share Posted July 6, 2008 There were some gents down from Nebraska flying her last week... altho the owner flies almost every day he is very generous with his toy, so if you want to get a flight in call Rotors... later, dp Thanks Gooey!! :-) What was the cost of your training in the EC120? Understand the factory school is 5 hrs GS and 3 hrs flight? Rotorrodent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikemv Posted July 6, 2008 Report Share Posted July 6, 2008 RM-Hi, glad you got to fly the EC120. Can you tell me how you know that the use of AC increases fuel burn? It is belt driven off of the transmission. What was fuel burn with AC off, then on? Also, please know that the accumulators are meant to provide servo control until the aircraft can be slowed or accelerated to 65kts. Also, the forces on the controls increase with airspeed. To minimize collective forces, fly the aircraft at 55kts. What was your All Up take off weight, and DA? Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDHelicopterPilot Posted July 6, 2008 Report Share Posted July 6, 2008 The EC120 can be a dog in high DA's. The San Benardino County Sheriffs office got rid of theirs for that reason. Although the CBP as ordered a bunch which kind of suprised me a little bit. I tend to think having the AC on or any other device will rob the aircraft of some power. However, it really wouldn't be noticed much. The Astar with AC, the manual says to have the AC off for take off and landing. I know what it is like to have a hydrualic failure in the Astar. The EC120 would be pretty much the same. As mike said the accumulators are only meant to provide time to slow down OR speed up to a controlable speed. The EC130B4 is a much better aircraft all around. It works great in high DA's. It has a dual channel VEMD with EBCAU back up. Also having a dual hydrualic system is great. In fact there is no procedure for loss of hydrualics. There is also really no way to test the system like you can on an Astar or EC120. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikemv Posted July 6, 2008 Report Share Posted July 6, 2008 Dear JD, help me out with some info please. I operated one of the first 407's for ten years and it was one performing SOB. Now by choice I am in an EC120 and in the summer months operate out of Sun Valley, Idaho where field elevation is 5,318 and standard temp is about 40F. So when the temp hit s 70 in the morning my DA is about 7,900 and in the PM when it is 85 to 90F, DA's are much closer to 10.000' Everyone says the EC120 is under powered. I tell them it is over loaded. All pilots(ME) want more power. when we get it we just carry more! When you take a light Turbine aircraft B206, EC120, S333 or the like and equip it for law enforcement or get the empty weight up for ENG or EMS they are all dogs! Oh, now the question for you. Can you operate the EC130 at Max Groos Weight and have performance at 5,318msl and 90F? When we take 6, 7 or 8 pax aircraft and load 3 people in them we will have good performance. Fill all the seats, fuel tank and get high and hot and what can any of them do? My 407 got off the ground at SV in the summer but not full fuel or pax loading! Please enlighten us on the EC130 performance, Thanks, Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDHelicopterPilot Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 Mike, you bring up a point. Many a pilot complaines about performance yet the aircraft operates as it was designed to. Many light aircraft such as the EC120 are loaded up to the wazoo with stuff such as law enforcement equipment. Then comes the problem with all that weight and the DA. It's important to select an aircraft that is going to meet the mission requirements. In my case the EC130 is a winner. In your case the EC120 is a winner. We all know that the higher the DA the less performace we are going to have. That is a given. In my case I am at a lower field elevation than you are. I can't really make a fair comparison right now as I don't have a manual handy nor am I at your airport. In the case of the San Bernardino Sheriffs department, the EC120 just didn't meet their operational performace requirements in the summer time at Big Bear in California. However, the Huntington Beach PD fly one but they are at sea level. So there is a big difference. What I can say is I take 72 gallons of fuel, 50lbs in the rear cargo and either 6-7 passengers depending if I exceed my max gross weight or am out of CG forward. In either case I can be right to max gross weight or close to it leaving the airport at 2300' and 110 degrees outside. It will perform well. Of course you have to be careful when operating at such a high power setting with the fenestron tail rotor. I will get back to you with the performance expectations for the situation you provided once I get the manual and look it up. I have not flown the EC120 but know pilots who have and they have said it didn't perform well for the mission they needed it for. Just as the EC130 may not perform well for others. It all depends on what you intend to use the aircraft for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkyMtnHI Posted July 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 There were some gents down from Nebraska flying her last week... altho the owner flies almost every day he is very generous with his toy, so if you want to get a flight in call Rotors... later, dp Thanks Gooey!! :-) What was the cost of your training in the EC120? Understand the factory school is 5 hrs GS and 3 hrs flight? You will have to talk to Rotors about their prices, sorry, i didn't do the whole course so my costs were different. The GS was two days, pretty full ones. And i believe you are right on the flight time, i didn't get mine in during the weekend as i was last on the list due to my hours, and the instructor had to leave. I will get my official factory time when he returns for the next class. dp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkyMtnHI Posted July 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 >>>RM-Hi, glad you got to fly the EC120. Can you tell me how you know that the use of AC increases fuel burn? The owner flies the heck out of this AC, he has determined that it averages 210lbs per hour with-out ac and 240 with. The ac unit uses ~2% of the power. >>>is it belt driven off of the transmission. The compressor is located in the main gear box compartment above the oil cooler and is driven by a belt on the MGB to the fan shaft. >>>What was fuel burn with AC off, then on? see above. >>>Also, please know that the accumulators are meant to provide servo control until the aircraft can be slowed or accelerated to 65kts. Also, the forces on the controls increase with airspeed. To minimize collective forces, fly the aircraft at 55kts. >>>What was your All Up take off weight, and DA? Mike 3300lbs, 210lbs of fuel, DA was 9500. three of us in the helo. dp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EC120AV8R Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 RkyMtn, I would be interested in finding out how the owner figured his fuel burn. We operate 3 120's and we burn about 170 lbs per hr. at patrol speed (65 kts) and about 200 lbs per hr. if we are pulling a lot of power. We operate at sea level, and those numbers are consistent with all three ships. JD, Huntington operates 520N's. ABLE (Costa Mesa/Newport Beach) have the 120's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDHelicopterPilot Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 I thought it was Huntington. Oh, well. Thanks for letting me know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikemv Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 Dear RM-HI, your fuel numbers are way off. I know they are not really your numbers, no offense meant. I have a fuel flow meter and shows gal/hr in VEMD. It does not show any difference in fuel flow with AC on or off. 2% power change indicated how/where? FLI, T4, Ng, Q? 2% of some number maybe good, I would have to run a power check with ac on and off to see the difference. Here are some real numbers about fuel flow. SL, FLI@9.2=36gphSL, FLI@9.0=33gph3K' FLI@9.0=30gph6K' FLI@9.0=27gph9K' FLI@9.0=24gph To All EC120 pilots (maybe other VEMD's too)Understand that these numbers are at summer time operating temps. In winter/cooler temps fuel burn will increase accordingly. Also, note that the VEMD conversion process from kg/hr to US gal/hr leave some inaccuracies displayed. The fuel flow & quantity only indicates in numbers divisible by three. Thus the 36, 33, 30, 27, 24 shown. However, knowing the change over from one indication to another happens at 1.4 going down to 1.6 gals going up, actual fuel burns could be more or less. Ever notice that VEMD Amp indications are only shown in multiples of 5? Just some info about the EC120 and VEMD for all to share! JD, are the VEMD quantity indications in EC130 the same? Fuel burn & quantities, gals in 3's, amps in 5's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDHelicopterPilot Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 Mike, I fly tomorrow so I will double check. However, I am quite sure the fuel displayed is an it's true form. In other words I see all numbers like quantites of 72 gallons or 108 and 105 and everything in between. Fuel burn is the same way, right now we look at about 48 gallons/hr at max cont. power. The aircraft we have are all quite new. No older than 4 years. Also we have several different software versions. Some have the 04 and others the 05. Do the VEMD test to find out what version you have. I'll double check and let you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikemv Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 JD, I have the VEMD 04 software. Interestingly enough all the numbers that you stated are divisible by 3! I will wait for your reply after you fly tomorrow. Check the amp readings and see if they are all multiples of 5, thanks, Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDHelicopterPilot Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 JD, I have the VEMD 04 software. Interestingly enough all the numbers that you stated are divisible by 3! I will wait for your reply after you fly tomorrow. Check the amp readings and see if they are all multiples of 5, thanks, Mike Yeah, I noticed that after I posted the post. I just wrote the most common numbers I see on the fuel levels after I get fuel. Strange. Anyway, I'll check it out. In fact, I wil have the fuel guy fuel the aircraft and I will keep an eye on the guage to see if I can get it at 71 gallons. It would be an interesting observation which I never noticed. However, since you and I both have the same software it most likely will end up being as you stated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EC120AV8R Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 I thought it was Huntington. Oh, well. Thanks for letting me know! No problem, not that I mind being confused with H.B., I just think our ships are cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkyMtnHI Posted July 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 Dear RM-HI, your fuel numbers are way off. I know they are not really your numbers, no offense meant. Hey Mike, thanks for that. i will get with the owner today and find out how they are getting their numbers. i wonder if the age of the ac matters? later, dp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikemv Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 Dear RM-HI, the age of the aircraft will not have much effect on fuel burn, however, the optional fuel flow meter was not available on some earlier serial numbers. Also, only of few of us EC120 pilots are on to the multiple of 3 fuel quantity indications (I just got a reply from France on this for the first time in the history of the aircraft in May) and it will mess up the mathematical fuel burn computations! Other factors that make it vary are not holding steady FLI Indications throughout the flight. Changes in run up, hover taxi times, OAT, DA and cruising altitudes, etc. Not to mention accuracy of recording numbers prior to computations. The numbers that I posted for various altitudes and FLI indications are read right off of the fuel flow meter over 200 hrs of flight ops. They are valid and believable. Sincerely, Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDHelicopterPilot Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Mike I guess we can add that there is an EC130 pilot who is now on to the multiple of 3 on fuel indications and 5's for the amps. Quite interesting. My flights today proved you are right. BTW at 3,000' I am burning 45gal/hr based on the VEMD at 9.2 FLI Don't know much about the powerplant on the 120. What engine do you have and what's the max gross weight? It might be interesting to see the comparison in the two aircraft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikemv Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Dear JD, the EC120 has the Turbomeca, Arrius2F eng, 504hp and MGW of 3,780lbs, EW of 2439, UL of 1341. A relatively simple turbine consisting of 2 modules. The turbine wheels (only 2, 1-ng, 1-nf) are ceramic not nickel and the temps can run higher that in RR Allison 250's. Most operations are Ng limited, not Temp or Q. Only Sea Level, cold days will hit Q limit first. This is an efficient little helo to operate, not powerful like my previous 407, but with plenty of pilot technique (40 yrs) it works for what I need to do. My answer to the perfect helo post elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDHelicopterPilot Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Wow, sounds like it works great for you. Good fuel burn numbers as well. Where I am at most of my operations are NG limited as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkyMtnHI Posted July 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 Dear RM-HI, your fuel numbers are way off. I know they are not really your numbers, no offense meant. I have a fuel flow meter and shows gal/hr in VEMD. It does not show any difference in fuel flow with AC on or off. 2% power change indicated how/where? FLI, T4, Ng, Q? 2% of some number maybe good, I would have to run a power check with ac on and off to see the difference. Here are some real numbers about fuel flow. SL, FLI@9.2=36gphSL, FLI@9.0=33gph3K' FLI@9.0=30gph6K' FLI@9.0=27gph9K' FLI@9.0=24gph To All EC120 pilots (maybe other VEMD's too)Understand that these numbers are at summer time operating temps. In winter/cooler temps fuel burn will increase accordingly. Also, note that the VEMD conversion process from kg/hr to US gal/hr leave some inaccuracies displayed. The fuel flow & quantity only indicates in numbers divisible by three. Thus the 36, 33, 30, 27, 24 shown. However, knowing the change over from one indication to another happens at 1.4 going down to 1.6 gals going up, actual fuel burns could be more or less. Ever notice that VEMD Amp indications are only shown in multiples of 5? Just some info about the EC120 and VEMD for all to share! JD, are the VEMD quantity indications in EC130 the same? Fuel burn & quantities, gals in 3's, amps in 5's? Hey Mike, sitting w/the owner of the 120 at Rotors, have some comments for you. The 2% number came from the factory course. FLI at 9.2 the numbers are the same; 36gph is the same as ~240lbs per hour. (6.8 x 36= 244.8) So our numbers seem to be the same. We came across these numbers by doing hand fuel checks. (there is no fuel flow meter on this ship). These numbers are the highest we've seen. We have seen as low as 180lbs per hour with a/c on. We do our numbers in lbs per hour since our fuel meter reads in lbs. Not gals cuz we don't have a fuel flow meter. Hope this helps, thanks for your input. dp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikemv Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 Dear RM-HI, well good, somewhat in agreement. Actually it seems like the operator has done some good math especially with many variables. I still disagree with your AC on & off variance in fuel burn but he did say that it is an average and I have to agree with that. Just so you know, the VEMD in this aircraft is progamable as to the fuel quantity readout. It can read kgs, lbs, liters or US gals. Thus metric or standard both by weight or volume. It can be set by the operator and is totally independent of having a fuel flow meter or not! Having the fuel readout in lbs. makes figuring All Up Weight easy. I am fortunate in that I buy the aircraft green from AE and then do an after market completion for Paint, Interior and Avionics equipment. So I get to set readouts and info to my liking for reduced workload. No math for fuel burn averages, Lucky me. I hope that you get to fly the aircraft again and others also. It is always exciting to fly different aircraft. Good luck, be Safe, Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dav Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 what is rotors number .... or website; i can not find them anywhere..... or maybe i'm just not looking in the right places. let me know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkyMtnHI Posted August 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2008 what is rotors number .... or website; i can not find them anywhere..... or maybe i'm just not looking in the right places. let me know http://www.rotorsoftherockies.com/index.htm Rotors of the Rockies Broomfield, Colorado. Metro Airport (KBJC) dp here are some photos: http://s298.photobucket.com/albums/mm243/RkyMtnHI2/?start=0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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