An introduction to me and...There is still money out there

[ABarnes]

First, I know this isn't really a school review but I figured this would get more views from potential students in here than the main forum.

 

I've been meaning to do this for a couple weeks now but am just now getting around to it. First off, everyone knows that getting money to get trained is a PITA these days. But I just wanted to let people know that if you're persistent, and are willing to make some compromises, that the money IS out there.

 

And let this serve as your "wall of text" warning. Sorry

 

First a short background. I'm 37. Been out of the military (non-flight related) for 12 years or so. Been more or less struggling since then trying to figure out wtf I wanted to do when I "grow up". I was an air force brat growing up so I was always around aircraft in one form or another. But I was always fascinated with helicopters. Maybe it came from growing up watching MASH reruns, Blue Thunder, Airwolf, and Riptide as a kid. When I was stationed in Germany I would drive over to Fliegerhorst and watch the Apaches, Blackhawks, and Kiowas flying. I had the chance to try to get into the Warrant Officer program for flight training and I never followed through. I kick my own ass every day for that. EVERY day. I figured that was pretty much my only chance to fly. So, fast forward to last year and I was sitting at work chatting with a friend online while waiting for a job to process. His sister's husband had just gone through helicopter training and told me I should look into it. I did and was surprised that it might be obtainable. So I set a weight related goal and made the reward a discovery flight during a visit to my parents living in Texas.

 

As all of you who fly can attest, your first helicopter flight is something you'll never forget (much like my first bungee jump, skydive, or jump out of the back of a CH-47 Chinook into a river). I flew with Sean at Summit who made quite a few very encouraging comments during the flight. During the flight, while hovering, he made comments along the lines of me being only the second new flyer he'd flown with that was able to hold a stable hover with 5 minutes of flight time - to include left/right 360 ATP turns (he worked the pedals in the hover though). He also made the comment about me being his first first-time student that he felt 100% comfortable with me flying the aircraft in a hover (minus the anti-torque pedals though). After the flight he told me that I was a natural and that "You need to do whatever you can to get trained. This is what you need to be doing." Now I know that it was probably part of his job to encourage me or talk me up. After all, without students, you've got no business. But I'd like to think his comments were genuine as he seemed to be a pretty genuine and straight-forward dude. Regardless, that was the point that I decided "Yep, after all these years I've finally found what I wanted to do."

 

The next six months SUCKED. I tried every thing I could think of to get loans. My goal was to train full time to get all my tickets in as little time as possible so I could start teaching. However, with the way the economy is these days, the SSH fiasco, and other factors - well, you can guess how that went. I don't make much money at work. I live in a tiny little rental apartment. I drive a 6-year old used car (although at the time it was two motorcycles which were stolen since then @#$#@!%@# thieves). I don't own any property or homes. And, being 37 and single, I don't have anyone to cosign for me. I tried for six months to get full-time training financed. Denied. Denied. Denied. When you aren't applying for student loans they don't look at what you'll be potentially making when you finish training. They look at what you're making now. So after six months of trying I gave up.

 

OK, here's where you start reading again if you just skimmed all that boring stuff. In the 3 months or so after I had given up, Summit had updated their website with some new info about how the process works with UVU. Prior to that it mentioned UVU but there were no serious details. And since UVU doesn't have a helicopter degree, they're light on details as well. But apparently Summit had hired someone who knew their stuff and put it on the website. Basically, how it works is this. You attend classes through UVU online. You need to take 6 credits (half-time) in order to qualify for financial aid and most private student loans. UVU certifies up to $14,300 per semester. They take what they need for tuition and fees (for my first semester it ended up being around $1300 since I took 7 credits) and they cut you a check for the rest. So, essentially you end up with about $13,000 per semester to use for flight training. You get $13K at the beginning of the school year (Aug 26 this year), another $13K Dec 15, and the last around Apr 15. $39,000 per year basically. Over the course of two years you're looking at $78K to get all your tickets. On the plus side, you are a student so you are eligible for student loans. Stafford loans are available (9500 as a freshman, 10500 as a soph, 12500 as a junior) and they're FIXED low interest loans. They come subsidized which means the government pays for the interest while it's deferred - while you're in school - and unsubsidized where you pay for the interest (if you're smart). And, since you're a student, you are much more likely to get approved for a private student loan. They only dole out so much per semester and they can look at your future employment rather than what you're doing now. Less of a risk for them than giving you all the money at once. On the minus side, you take two years to train rather than the mythical 6-9 months. AND, the big minus, is you risk them not giving you the money for the second year. But since it's a student loan you've got a much better chance of getting that second year of money than if it was just a normal private unsecured loan.

 

So, where do you apply for loans? EVERYWHERE. I applied with all the big lenders. Sallie Mae. Chase. Discover. Wells Fargo. Citibank. and a few others that I can't think of off the top of my head. You know, honestly, I was expecting the same results as when I was applying for the full amount as a non-student. I was wrong. Well, except for Sallie Mae. The immediately said DENIED as usual along with the standard "Try again with a cosigner." But every single other lender approved me. Of course the interest rates varies widely. But overall they were much lower than I expected! The highest was in the 12's. There were two 10's, a 9, and.....SEVEN percent. 7.0. Prime + 3.75%. Granted it's variable so if/when prime changes, my rate will change. But that's half of what I expected. I'm 37, good credit, no real assets, and no cosigner. I did not expect 7%. So after a lot of thought I decided to go for it. I can't spend the rest of my life wondering "what if" like I have for the last 12 years. Will it be easy? Hell no. I'll be in debt for a long time. Will it be as hard as some people want you to think? I don't *think* so. I've lived for many years on wages that some of my friends can't believe. One person on the forum mentioned something about questioning the risk of going to school for two years to struggle on instructor wages for a year or two and then starting with a measly 53K a year or so after that. Even with 80K in loans I could live like a freakin' king on 53K! So I think I'll be OK. Besides, I'm not really doing it for the money. I've always wanted to fly. And as long as I can 1) make ends meet and 2) fly, I'm golden! When I took my discovery flight and we (I!) were flying toward where we were going to do some hovering, we flew over a fairly large section of railroad tracks. You could see people working all over the tracks. Sean made a comment along the lines of, "Look at all those people working on the railroad tracks down there. It must suck working on a holiday weekend. Then again, I'm working on a holiday weekend. But who cares? I'm flying a helicopter!" And THAT'S the feeling I want to have when I go to work each day.

 

 

Now, my only problem now is that I've got the money for the first year at least. Now I need to find a real job and choose a school. Since the school I was planning on attending (Summit) closed that really threw a wrench in my plans. So instead of Texas I'm looking at possibly moving back to Oregon and flying at Hillsboro Aviation. I just need to find a decent job in that area so I can afford rent and interest payments. The anticipation is killing me. I can't wait to start flying even if it's only once or twice a week!

 

Well, that's about it for now. Again, sorry for the wall(s) of text. I tend to just type and make paragraph breaks where I feel like it. If I've left anything out or if you've got questions, ask away and I'll do what I can to answer them.

 

Happy Flying,

 

Alan

[Hovergirl]

Welcome to the addiction Alan! Looks like you've already cleared your first major hurdle -- getting funding, and are well on the way to conquering that hover. Enjoy every minute of it and let us know how training goes.

 

Check out this thread if you haven't already -- good stuff in here:

http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.c...showtopic=10871

 

Happy flying to you!

 

HVG

[deanathpc]

Congrats! I envy you... Live the dream....

[Hedge36]

Alan, with Summit's closure I'm in precisely the same situation as you. Thanks for the info, as I had just started looking at this as my path forward.

 

PM me your contact info - when I get back to TX (I'm in NorCal now, with a short stay in AL coming up), beer's on me.

 

Scott

[slick1537]

Sorry I didn't read your whole thread but being that you are prior military you may be eligible for some educational benefits. I don't know how it works but the new post 9-11 bill that just came into law covers 100% of flight training I believe.

[wopilot]

He's been out for 12 years, so he doesn't qualify unfortunately.

[Miles]

I'm so glad you posted this, I've been looking heavily into UVU and plan on doing exactly what you're doing! Good luck to you and keep us updated, I can't wait to enroll! Are you trying for the 2 year option or are you going to make use of the single year in loans and take out other small loans to complete your training in 1 year?

 

Almost feel like you shouldn't be telling people about this I'd go nuts if these loans dried up, too!

Edited September 12, 2009 by Miles

[mechanic]

Yep, 10 year delimit date for GI Bill Chapter 30 bene's... It got me too.

[ABarnes]

Yeah, my ten year limit has passed. I didn't even use it all. Took me too long to realize what I wanted to do in life.

 

Hi Miles. As for UVU, your best option, in my opinion, is to stick with the two year. It's got its pluses and minuses but I think the pluses outweigh the minuses. The most obvious disadvantage is that you take two years to train at most schools. They only certify 14,300 per semester (make sure you specify with the finaid office that you intend to attend fall, spring, AND summer. Six credits of out of state tuition is going to run you in the neighborhood of 1100 and there are a few other fees. So you'll get between 12-13000 every four months. Even if you have an additional direct to student loan that doesn't require the school to certify, you're still stuck in that 4 months cycle. So I think it's better to just stick to your stafford loan(s) and a private student loan. You'll have to reapply after the first year but since it's a student loan you've got a much better chance of getting that as long as you're not a screwup. If it was a plain private loan, good luck with that. If you've got some other source of money you could lessen the amount of time it takes but I'm still thinking to plan on 18-24 months.

 

Another advantage of only getting the money every four months is that if you decide it's not for you, you're not stuck with an 80,000 loan right off the bat. You're only responsible for what they've given you up to that point. Cut your losses and head back to the mundane In addition, you're not paying the interest on 80K right off the bat. It's a gradual increase as the money comes in.

Edited September 13, 2009 by ABarnes

[jras312]

This is my first semester with UVU and so far everything is going well; classes are easy and stafford loan went through with no problems. Although they only gave me $3,500 total for both semesters, I guess it it better than nothing since I got a pell grant that covered my $1,100 tuition costs. I was wondering how you were able to get the amount that you recieved. Since I'm only 20 and I'm most certain i have a terrible crest score (slowly rebuilding) I know I will have to have a cosigner. did you recieved the alernative loans at the same time as the stafford loan? Just wondering if I could still recieve more loans even though classes have started already. BTW this is a good topic for newbs like ourselves.

[ABarnes]

This is my first semester with UVU and so far everything is going well; classes are easy and stafford loan went through with no problems. Although they only gave me $3,500 total for both semesters, I guess it it better than nothing since I got a pell grant that covered my $1,100 tuition costs. I was wondering how you were able to get the amount that you recieved. Since I'm only 20 and I'm most certain i have a terrible crest score (slowly rebuilding) I know I will have to have a cosigner. did you recieved the alernative loans at the same time as the stafford loan? Just wondering if I could still recieve more loans even though classes have started already. BTW this is a good topic for newbs like ourselves.

 

Initially I received 3500 as well for the stafford (subsidized). As a freshman the max you can received (sub'd and unsub'd is 9500. 10500 for sophomore. 12500 after that). What I didn't know until it was almost too late was that you can get both sub'd and unsub'd stafford loans at the same time. So I filled out the form for that. They then bumped my status to sophomore since I've got a bucket full of transfer credits. So they bumped me up to 4500 subsidized and 6000 unsubsidized. The rest was from a single alternative loan. I wasn't eligible for a pell but that would have certainly been nice.

 

Yeah, I applied for the alternative loan at the same time but I didn't do that through the school. I hit the websites of all the lenders I listed in my first post and filled out the online forms. I was expecting denial after denial but only Sallie Mae turned me down. I guess it was approved since it's an actual student loan rather than a plain private unsecured loan. When I applied for the private unsecured loans last year, even trying nearly the same amount I asked for this time, I was turned down. So being a student definitely makes a difference. Of course, there is zero guarantee that I'll get approved for the second year but right now I think I can swing private, commercial, and CFI and then hope like hell I can get the funds for the second year for instrument and CFII. We'll see though. The adventure has definitely started!

[Fullhouse]

Hello Abarnes,

 

Thank you very much for sharing this information!I am considering taking this same route,and as you seem to be several steps ahead of me the info seems to be just what i am looking for.

 

Could you tell me what Degree you decided to pursue?And please keep us informed as to how the actual online classes work out for you.

 

Good luck!

[Heliboss]

Alan,

 

If you're moving to the Portland area take a look at Precision Helicopters in Newberg and Sunset in Aurora. As a former student and now an employee of Precision I have a clear bias, but both schools are worth a look. Precision has two 300Cs and a 300Cbi. Stop by some time and we can show you around. http://www.flyprecision.com

 

Eric

Edited September 14, 2009 by Heliboss

[John90290]

I wish you good luck but I would do the math and figure out if someone with zero assets and minimal income should be looking to get into 50k of debt. (btw, what caused current financial crisis in the US ) There are many loan caluclators on the internet that can help you make the determination if working as a CFI can pay off the bills.

 

Just because you can get a loan does not mean that you should.

 

Not being Debbie Downer here, just trying to give you something to think about. I know the addiction well and how it makes it possible to rationalize any decision.

[ABarnes]

It's all about how you choose to live your life. I have become quite adept at living frugally over the years. I also have no debt other than the standard rent, cable/internet, electric, etc. I paid off my vehicle loans, credit cards, etc. I wouldn't be borrowing money if I didn't think I could afford it. I could almost afford the loans on what I make now which isn't much (not due to my abilities, more due to where I live. Low cost of living area = lower pay). I could live pretty darn well on what a lot of people on VR complain about being not enough money. I'm not doing this to get rich, I'm doing this to fly. I've always wanted to. I had the chance to in the military and I passed it up. And damnit, I'm not going to pass it up again. As long as I have enough money to pay the rent, put gas in the car, and afford loan payments once they kick in, I'll be happy. If I have to eat Ramen and ride the bus for two years then that's what I'll do. Besides, I need to lose a few pounds anyway

 

I wish you good luck but I would do the math and figure out if someone with zero assets and minimal income should be looking to get into 50k of debt. (btw, what caused current financial crisis in the US ) There are many loan caluclators on the internet that can help you make the determination if working as a CFI can pay off the bills.

 

Just because you can get a loan does not mean that you should.

 

Not being Debbie Downer here, just trying to give you something to think about. I know the addiction well and how it makes it possible to rationalize any decision.

Edited September 14, 2009 by ABarnes

[BOATFIXERGUY]

Alan,

I am doing the UVU thing right now also. Someday I would enjoy being a chief pilot for a major 135 operator, and all of them require a Bachelors degree.

 

Go WOLVERINES!!!

[Zona25]

Alan ,

 

Just curious which lender offered the best rate in your case? Also, do you by chance know if going to school full time or part time affects the amount and interest rate you are given in terms of the loan?

 

Thanks

[ABarnes]

Alan,

I am doing the UVU thing right now also. Someday I would enjoy being a chief pilot for a major 135 operator, and all of them require a Bachelors degree.

 

Go WOLVERINES!!!

 

 

All of them may ask for a bachelor's degree. But, even if they use the word "REQUIRED" that doesn't necessarily mean they won't get the job. Experience means a lot more than a degree. I know several people (granted, none in this industry) that have jobs that "required" four year degrees and some of them haven't had a DAY of college. I think it's more about 1) WHO you know and 2) WHAT you know. #1 gets you more contacts and interviews via networking and #2 gets you a job (sometimes with influence from #1). That's just my personal opinion based on personal experiences. Maybe some here will say it's different but I suspect that this industry is no different than any other industry that requires a highly specialized skillset.

 

Bottom line is, if you are qualified, know other people who know you are qualified, then by all means apply for a job. Use those people as references. I don't think it's going to be easy to get a job. But I think I'll manage.

Edited September 15, 2009 by ABarnes

[spinner79]

Helicopter Academy also has training through UVU

http://www.helicopteracademy.com/financial...inancialAid.htm

[helikriewall]

Wow awesome topic,

 

I'm also going through the UVU BS aviation administration degree program. Actually just got done finishing a lecture, Flight Environment awesome class so far.

 

I did the same thing as you with the student loans. Yep I'm in debt and going to be for a looooong time, $65K but it's all worth it cause I love to fly. No regrets.

 

Well, congrats on getting the financing. The hard part is now over.

 

What classes is everyone taking this semester?

 

I'm taking Flight Physiology and Flight Environment. So far so good

 

well good luck with all your training, keep us all informed.

 

Alex

[ABarnes]

What classes is everyone taking this semester?

 

I'm taking Flight Physiology and Flight Environment. So far so good

 

well good luck with all your training, keep us all informed.

 

Alex

 

 

I'm taking 7 credits since two of them are two credit classes. AVSC-1010 Intro to Aviation Science, AVSC-1020 Aircraft Identification, and AVSC-3030 Air Traffic Control. Trying to choose the interesting ones to start with.

[ABarnes]

I've never done any sort of journal type thing but I was thinking about doing one for my flight training. I guess I could be modern and call it a blog but I'll just call it a damn journal since that's what it is Anyway, my goal, realistic or not, is to two two things. I would like to 1) record audio for all my flights which someone else in the forums has already talked about an easy way to do it (more or less the same idea I had). And 2) I'd like to get something like this http://www.vholdr.com/contourhd/features to mount on a headset and record video from each flight lesson as well. I'm not really satisfied with the quality of some of the standalone recorders like the contourHD or the GoProHD.

 

Of course, this all would depend on the school I attend and their policy toward something like that. But I think it'd really be beneficial to be able to go back over your lessons to see what you did right or wrong.

 

Anyway, it'd be nice to post a video or audio clip of each lesson that I took along with my personal notes. Because, really, there's not a whole lot of information online about how flight school is once you get flying. Sure there are clips here and there on youtube but nothing in-depth. Then again, not sure if I want my mistakes up there for everyone to see and give me a hard time for

[jras312]

I am also taking Aircraft Identification and Intro to Aviation Science as well as Aviation Law. Classes are going pretty well, not to difficult. I just really wish I could find a co-signer to jump on an alternative loan with me so I can get the 35k for Fall, Spring, and Summer semesters. Well, no one said it was going to be easy! One way or another, I will be in the air!

[IFLY]

Looks like the government is cutting Sallie Mae off at the knees...no more private school loans, only government funded ones.

 

Jerry

[ABarnes]

Looks like the government is cutting Sallie Mae off at the knees...no more private school loans, only government funded ones.

 

Jerry

 

Saw that today. It will be interesting to see how that plays out. It still has to pass the Senate.

 

If I understand it right (and I could very well be wrong) this only affects federally backed student loans. I don't think private student loans are gone completely. I just don't think there going to be a federally subsidized loans covered directly by private banks anymore. They're basically cutting out the middle man I guess. I wonder how my stafford loan will be affected next year.

 

I've got no sympathy for Sallie Mae though. Took that bailout money but they sure weren't handing any out! They can rot.

 

Regardless, I'm glad I got my loan for the first year approved when I did. Might not have the same luck next year

Edited September 18, 2009 by ABarnes