Helicopter "add-on"

[helonorth]

It appears to me to be very simply put in the FAR's:

 

"40 hours of flight time (if it is an add on, then they have that) that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in 61.107((3) of this part...........

 

If they have less than 30 hours of total helicopter time they do not meet the requirements of this part.

 

Simple as that.

[/quote

The FAA does not agree with you. Certain FSDO's, maybe. Oklahoma City, no.

Edited January 6, 2010 by helonorth

[R22139RJ]

Here's the link:

 

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headqu...ia/aero-exp.doc

 

If anyone is using this checklist for commercial add-on ratings, it is incorrect. The new regs were updated on October 20th and include changes to commercial pilot aeronautical experience requirements.

 

Thanks again for the find NC.

[Vaqueroaero]

After a brief call to Airmen Certification this afternoon it would appear that in order to obtain a rotorcraft helicopter add on certificate at the private level then you must have a total of 30 hours of helicopter time logged, of which 20 must be dual received and 10 must be solo, as is stated very clearly in 61.109 ©.

 

The examiner who I spoke with (i.e. one of those who process the IACRA/8710 applications and then issues the certificates) was mystified as to how it would be possible to have a certificate issued with any less time than that showing on the application.

 

There you have it straight from Oklahoma.

[IFLY]

§ 61.63 Additional aircraft ratings (other than for ratings at the airline transport pilot certification level).

(b ) Additional aircraft category rating. A person who applies to add a category rating to a pilot certificate:

 

(1) Must complete the training and have the applicable aeronautical experience.

 

(c ) Additional aircraft class rating. A person who applies for an additional class rating on a pilot certificate:

 

(3) Need not meet the specified training time requirements prescribed by this part that apply to the pilot certificate for the aircraft class rating sought

 

 

 

§ 61.109 Aeronautical experience.

 

(c ) For a helicopter rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107(b )(3) of this part, and the training must include at least—

 

(1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a helicopter;

 

(2) Except as provided in §61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a helicopter that includes—

 

(i) One cross-country flight of over 50 nautical miles total distance; and

 

(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.

 

(3) 3 hours of flight training with an authorized instructor in a helicopter in preparation for the practical test, which must have been performed within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test; and

 

(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a helicopter, consisting of at least—

 

================================================

For an additional Catagory you need to meet the time requirements.

For an additional Class you don't need to meet the time requirements.

 

For the time requirements under 61-109 c it says authorized instructor but in c 3 it specifies an authorized instructor in a helicopter.

If it has to be in a helicopter it says "in a helicopter"

 

19 hours.

 

Jerry

Edited January 6, 2010 by IFLYEVERYTHING

[yzchopper]

Jerry you beat me too it on the posting.

 

I would think 61.109 only applies if you do NOT hold any certificates, and 61.63 is what needs to be followed. Also the flight time posted of the 20 dual and 10 solo is if you want to fly the R22 or R44. If I read SFAR 73 correctly you only need 20hrs dual in the R22 and an endorsement. If you read section C (3) below, you do not need the solo time due to this being an add-on. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Here is what I read today on the FAA website.

 

Code of Federal Regulations

 

 

Sec. 61.63

 

Sec. 61.63

 

Part 61 CERTIFICATION: PILOTS, FLIGHT INSTRUCTORS, AND GROUND INSTRUCTORS

Subpart B--Aircraft Ratings and Pilot Authorizations

 

Sec. 61.63

 

Additional aircraft ratings (other than for ratings at the airline transport pilot certification level).

[(a) General. For an additional aircraft rating on a pilot certificate, other than for an airline transport pilot certificate, a person must meet the requirements of this section appropriate to the additional aircraft rating sought.

( Additional aircraft category rating. A person who applies to add a category rating to a pilot certificate:

(1) Must complete the training and have the applicable aeronautical experience.

(2) Must have a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor attesting that the person was found competent in the appropriate aeronautical knowledge areas and proficient in the appropriate areas of operation.

(3) Must pass the practical test.

(4) Need not take an additional knowledge test if the person holds an airplane, rotorcraft, powered-lift, or airship rating at that pilot certificate level.

© Additional aircraft class rating. A person who applies for an additional class rating on a pilot certificate:

(1) Must have a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor attesting that the person was found competent in the appropriate aeronautical knowledge areas and proficient in the appropriate areas of operation.

(2) Must pass the practical test.

(3) Need not meet the specified training time requirements prescribed by this part that apply to the pilot certificate for the aircraft class rating sought; unless, the person only holds a lighter-

than-air category rating with a balloon class rating and is seeking an airship class rating, then that person must receive the specified training time requirements and possess the appropriate aeronautical experience.

(4) Need not take an additional knowledge test if the person holds an airplane, rotorcraft, powered-lift, or airship rating at that pilot certificate level.

[IFLY]

Jerry you beat me too it on the posting.

 

I would think 61.109 only applies if you do NOT hold any certificates, and 61.63 is what needs to be followed. Also the flight time posted of the 20 dual and 10 solo is if you want to fly the R22 or R44. If I read SFAR 73 correctly you only need 20hrs dual in the R22 and an endorsement. If you read section C (3) below, you do not need the solo time due to this being an add-on. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You do need the 10 hours solo, the 20 hours dual in the R22 is so they can solo the R22.

 

Jerry

[bossman]

After a brief call to Airmen Certification this afternoon it would appear that in order to obtain a rotorcraft helicopter add on certificate at the private level then you must have a total of 30 hours of helicopter time logged, of which 20 must be dual received and 10 must be solo, as is stated very clearly in 61.109 ©.

 

The examiner who I spoke with (i.e. one of those who process the IACRA/8710 applications and then issues the certificates) was mystified as to how it would be possible to have a certificate issued with any less time than that showing on the application.

 

There you have it straight from Oklahoma.

It is 19 hours. 61.63(3) need not meet the specified training. 19 hours, we do it all the time. This is for an "add-on private". Have processed 19 IACRA/8710's with 20 hours.

[yzchopper]

Thank you for the correction. But if you Need not meet the specified training time requirements then why would you need to solo?? I would not sign my students off for the checkride without soloing but just had to ask.

 

Steve

[bossman]

Thank you for the correction. But if you Need not meet the specified training time requirements then why would you need to solo?? I would not sign my students off for the checkride without soloing but just had to ask.

 

Steve

You know, I guess the FAA assumes that you know how to navigate and have sufficent solo time in your other rating. This does not cut out all solo time, you still need around 9 hours in the helicopter. I'm not saying that 19 hours is all that a person needs, I'm just saying that if you get right down and into the regs, 19 is all you have to have. Each person is different.

[R22139RJ]

Sec. 61.63

 

Additional aircraft ratings (other than for ratings at the airline transport pilot certification level).

[(a) General. For an additional aircraft rating on a pilot certificate, other than for an airline transport pilot certificate, a person must meet the requirements of this section appropriate to the additional aircraft rating sought.

( Additional aircraft category rating. A person who applies to add a category rating to a pilot certificate:

(1) Must complete the training and have the applicable aeronautical experience.

(2) Must have a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor attesting that the person was found competent in the appropriate aeronautical knowledge areas and proficient in the appropriate areas of operation.

(3) Must pass the practical test.

(4) Need not take an additional knowledge test if the person holds an airplane, rotorcraft, powered-lift, or airship rating at that pilot certificate level.

© Additional aircraft class rating. A person who applies for an additional class rating on a pilot certificate:

(1) Must have a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor attesting that the person was found competent in the appropriate aeronautical knowledge areas and proficient in the appropriate areas of operation.

(2) Must pass the practical test.

(3) Need not meet the specified training time requirements prescribed by this part that apply to the pilot certificate for the aircraft class rating sought; unless, the person only holds a lighter-

than-air category rating with a balloon class rating and is seeking an airship class rating, then that person must receive the specified training time requirements and possess the appropriate aeronautical experience.

(4) Need not take an additional knowledge test if the person holds an airplane, rotorcraft, powered-lift, or airship rating at that pilot certificate level.

 

 

Category and class are different things. Airplane/Rotorcraft/Balloon/Glider are categories. Single engine land and multi engine land are class ratings. The statement "(3) Need not meet the specified training time requirements prescribed by this part" would be for a class rating.

[Pohi]

Wow.

 

Yeah, it appears some people need to learn the definitions of category and class.

 

I guess if there is a lack of comprehension on that area, then reading the rest of the regulations might be a problem.

 

Part 1 of the regulations is definitions, which would be a good place to start.

[PhotoFlyer]

[Inferno]

ROFL. I was thinking the exact same thing....

[yzchopper]

I understand the difference between Category and Class.

Category: Rotorcraft, Class: Helicopter.

You're getting both added-on, so therefore you must meet both requirements for category and class. Am I right? You need the time requirements for rotorcraft but you do not need the specified time requirements for helicopter. So how would you accomplish these two separate tasks? Just say the heck with it and get the time requirements of a PPLH just to be safe???

[Vaqueroaero]

Well many thanks to the 'reg heads' out there! From the regs posted I would say that I stand corrected.

 

You learn something every day......over 'n' out!

[Pohi]

I understand the difference between Category and Class.

Category: Rotorcraft, Class: Helicopter.

You're getting both added-on, so therefore you must meet both requirements for category and class. Am I right? You need the time requirements for rotorcraft but you do not need the specified time requirements for helicopter. So how would you accomplish these two separate tasks? Just say the heck with it and get the time requirements of a PPLH just to be safe???

 

If a person has an airplane single engine land private certificate, and that person wants to get a rotorcraft helicopter private certificate then that person is seeking an additional category and class.

In this example, the person must have received the required training and possess the aeronautical experience prescribed by part 61 for the category (rotorcraft) and class (helicopter).

 

If this person is seeking an airplane multiengine land private certificate, then that person would be seeking an additional class only.

In this example the person need not meet the specified training time requirements prescribed by part 61 for the class rating...

 

I hope that helps clear things up a bit.

 

Either way, there is that checklist on the faa.gov website that lists the time required if there is a question.

[bossman]

PhotoFlyer,

You are right, we have beat this horse to death. It's still 19 hours minimum.

[yzchopper]

Pohi,

Thank you for the clarification. I was not 100% for sure if I had understood that correctly. I do now. Again thank you.

 

Steve

[Pohi]

PhotoFlyer,

You are right, we have beat this horse to death. It's still 19 hours minimum.

 

lol.

 

If you say it enough times, it will be true.

 

I commend your efforts.

[IFLY]

Bossman I think they are missing the fact that the 20 hours dual is not specified to be in a helicopter, only 9 hours dual are specified to be in a helicopter.

 

Jerry

 

 

§ 61.109 Aeronautical experience.

 

(c ) For a helicopter rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107(b )(3) of this part, and the training must include at least—

[R22139RJ]

Bossman I think they are missing the fact that the 20 hours dual is not specified to be in a helicopter, only 9 hours dual are specified to be in a helicopter.

 

Jerry

 

 

§ 61.109 Aeronautical experience.

 

(c ) For a helicopter rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107(b )(3) of this part, and the training must include at least—

 

61.107 ( b ) (3) is the area of operations for rotorcraft. "And" is a key word.

[bossman]

lol.

 

If you say it enough times, it will be true.

 

I commend your efforts.

It is not an effort, we do it all the time. It is true.

[MileHi480B]

Holy Crap! If all you veterans have this much discussion and confusion and disagreement ... then I don't feel bad.

 

As it turns out ... I'll have more time and training than the worst case scenario anyway ... cause that's just what I need!

 

But lovin it.

[rotorrodent]

lol.

 

If you say it enough times, it will be true.

 

I commend your efforts.

 

....now what's this about a cross country on a horse?????

 

Rotorrodent ROFL