Autos

[r22butters]

In the Robinson POH for the R22/R44, under autos above 500'agl, one of the steps is to "...turn off unecessary switches, and shut off fuel". I have done a lot of practice autos over the years, but I must say, I've never taken my hand off the collective, not even to scratch my nose.

 

Seeing how easy it is to inadvertantly nudge the cyclic while reaching for things in normal flight, in an auto, it must take some practice to be able to reach around to shut off the fuel without causing the RPM to do something undesireable?

 

So my question is; Do any of you CFis simulate this step with your students while practicing autos?

 

One more thing. What exactly are the "unecessary switches"?

The usual choices are:

master

alt

strobe

nav lts

radio

GPS

transponder

landing light (yes, I know, off until below 1000')

[R22139RJ]

I don't teach autos yet, but I was never taught to do that at my school, which is where i now work.

 

If i had my collective set and my glide established I wouldn't turn off anything but the fuel. Time permitting and I had my spot picked I would change my transponder to 7700 and make a mayday call on the radio. I got that idea from the man Tim Tucker. Otherwise I would really concentrate on hitting the spot.

[Goldy]

I would change my transponder to 7700 and make a mayday call on the radio.

 

I agree hitting your spot is number one. For those that dont know, IF you are in range of a radar, even just one sweep picking up your 7700 code will literally set off alarms at several ATC stations and will give them fairly accurate location data.

 

If your out in the boonies....it will do nothing. As suggested, if you have time, do them all.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Goldy

[R22139RJ]

I guess there is a benefit to flying around California, most of the time you are in radar contact.

[jaredsega]

I teach Autos and have had to do them, Due to Engine failure, if you have time to do anything but get RPM it is a miracle, unless the rare flight when u fly at a few 1KFT AGL! I do teach a restart and you dont need your left hand, control rpm with cyclic. getting 7700 in?!?!?! I have a hard time believing anybody has got that in, and saved there life !!

[Inferno]

Unless youre up in the mountains... Then no one will hear you scream.... And noone will see you crash, and if you crash and survive, there's no cell reception and its a 3 day hike to the nearest form of civilization.... Plus there's bears and mountain lions. Sounds like a fun time to me.....

 

It would be a good policy to always keep the radio with the emergency freq in standby so you could try and let airliners know about your problem....

 

For butter's question, i agree with everyone else. Fly first. If you can (or even better have a copilot who can) try and shut the fuel off and do the other bits while you shoot for the spot... That should only be secondary, and I wouldn't even try and do it in a solo condition unless I had plenty of altitude and was stabilized in the auto. Theres a lot going on in that situation, and a little lapse is concentration trying to flip a switch could ruin an otherwise flawless auto.

 

I guess there is a benefit to flying around California, most of the time you are in radar contact.

[R22139RJ]

getting 7700 in?!?!?! I have a hard time believing anybody has got that in, and saved there life !!

 

I have never done it, nor do i posses the skill to pull that off. It was a Tim Tucker suggestion and he is god in my book. I have heard from our DPE that a student pulled the mixture instead of carb heat on the downwind and the instructor was able to enter the auto and get the engine restarted and recovered. I've also heard that air restarts were no big deal back in the day before carb heat was figured out.

[C of G]

I had the occasion that I needed to shut down an engine (single engine helicopter) in flight and I had another pilot on board, so I pre-briefed him to pull the mixture, shut the fuel valve and kill the electrics crossing the threshold. I do not believe I could have done that on my own, and that was a planned engine off landing. With a sudden catastrophic engine failure, I sincerely doubt any but the most proficient could get that accomplished.

 

I had a few thought run trough my head, one of which is that most pilots recognize an engine failure by the throttle moving through their hands and not the actual indications of the engine shutting down, two: the engine shuts down very quickly with the mixture pulled, much faster than on a normal shutdown and three: communications are very important.

 

In my time as an instructor I have not emphasized "cleaning up the cockpit" so much as I am looking for a May-Day call from the pilot. If properly practiced, it is not distracting at all from the maneuver. Not practiced it can be a handful, just like anything else. I would strongly recommend that you establish an autorotation and then get out a basic mayday as soon as possible, and if time permits, more than one. The rest is to limit a post crash fire, but without a second person on board, from 500 agl, that is not likely to get accomplished.

[JDHelicopterPilot]

I would like to touch on the original question. As a CFI I would review of course what to do during an Auto. Such as, time permiting turning off the master and fuel shut off switches. However, I would not actualy do this during practice autos.

 

One reason being, normaly I am in radio contact with ATC and need to stay that way. Two its not smart to shut the fuel off as the engine is now not running. All that for a practice autorotation in which real life autos are fairly rare. The risk vs reward says it's not a good idea.

 

In reality, there really isn't much time to try a restart, shut off switches and fuel, make a mayday call and swq. 7700. Remember, the first thing to do is AVIATE. Everything else is second.

 

Even at 1000 feet agl when caught by suprise you won't have time to do all of the above.

[Goldy]

I do teach a restart and you dont need your left hand, control rpm with cyclic

 

I know Doug (second only to Tim Tucker in Robbie god-ness) told me he has done several auto's with full engine outs (on purpose) and successfully performed in the air re-starts from as low as 300 AGL in the 22. Funny, a lot of CFI's dont even mention re-starts anymore, let alone simulate it during an auto. One thing we all know is whatever we practice, that is exactly what we will do in a real emergency. Our brain knows nothing else at that time except what it has rehearsed.

 

Just to call out the words spot, restart (mixture full in, carb heat full on, hit the ignition) radio call would probably keep a focus on whats important.

 

Fly safe,

Goldy

[EAGLE1]

Well just a side note here on the trying to restart the engine. Usually (and I know there are exceptions to everything) the engine quit for a reason. It ran out of fuel, something seriously broke etc. So to me once it quit I think the chances of it restarting at all are slim to none even if you have 5,000 feet under you. I say fly the machine, fly the machine and then fly it some more. Use the 5,000 feet to auto/ glide to a really good spot and then grease it on! If there is time for all the other stuff then give it a try AFTER you are stabilized in a good auto.

[Inferno]

I'm with you on that eagle, but a quick check to see if "someone" pulled the mixture instead of the carb heat might save you from having to take it to the ground...

 

Beyond that, if an engine quits, it probably had a good reason: like something broke. No need to waste the time trying to start it back up....

[lelebebbel]

the engine restart procedure in the POH covers all the usual suspects for pilot or co-pilot induced engine failure:

mixture verify on, fuel verify on, magnetos verify on (by turning key).

I think students should be taught to go through that short little checklist after a simulated engine failure, and they should - at least in this simulated situation - be cabable of autorotating for a while without a hand on the collective.

Practicing things like that should also help to improve their emergency-situation management skills in general.

[Mungo5]

I...had to do them, Due to Engine failure...

 

Jaredsega - a real engine failure? What were the circumstances and what happened?

 

Was your reaction as automatic reaction as you thought it would be?

Edited January 27, 2010 by Mungo5

[Goldy]

Well just a side note here on the trying to restart the engine. Usually (and I know there are exceptions to everything) the engine quit for a reason.

 

Hey big guy, glad to see you writing!'

 

The only other situation I could think of is carb ice. I know, I know, you don't have carb heat on a 120, but some of us still have that little knob and gauge to watch occasionally!

 

Once iced over though, not sure if full heat would do much at that point with the few seconds you have, but a restart might be worth a try if you have the altitude and youre going into a good spot.

 

Otherwise, I couldnt agree more, you gotta fly it all the way to the ground and focus on a good auto as opposed to trying to figure out whats going on and why.

 

BTW- Did I ever share the photos I took of you guys last year leaving the VNY seminar? If not, I have a couple of good shots.

 

Goldy

Edited January 28, 2010 by Goldy

[EC120AV8R]

Hey big guy, glad to see you writing!'

 

The only other situation I could think of is carb ice. I know, I know, you don't have carb heat on a 120, but some of us still have that little knob and gauge to watch occasionally!

 

Once iced over though, not sure if full heat would do much at that point with the few seconds you have, but a restart might be worth a try if you have the altitude and youre going into a good spot.

 

Otherwise, I couldnt agree more, you gotta fly it all the way to the ground and focus on a good auto as opposed to trying to figure out whats going on and why.

 

BTW- Did I ever share the photos I took of you guys last year leaving the VNY seminar? If not, I have a couple of good shots.

 

Goldy

 

E-mail the photos on down! I will PM you my work e-mail

 

Rob

[MLH]

As a Raven II owner, I've found that hot restarts even on the ground and with nothing broken are not easily accomplished. Chance of getting it going again during an auto is not very likely, I'll focus on the rest of the list instead.

[gregoire28]

I agree that a restart is unlikely but in regard to taking your left hand off the collective - I think you'll find after you get proficient at autorotating you're not using your collective much (if at all) during the glide portion. RPM control is done with your cylic! If you want to change airspeed much outside say 60-75 knots (in an R-22) then collective input is necessary, but if you're doing a traditional 'flight school practice auto' (even if it's a turning auto) set the collective and forget it!

[Hedge36]

I agree that a restart is unlikely but in regard to taking your left hand off the collective - I think you'll find after you get proficient at autorotating you're not using your collective much (if at all) during the glide portion. RPM control is done with your cylic! If you want to change airspeed much outside say 60-75 knots (in an R-22) then collective input is necessary, but if you're doing a traditional 'flight school practice auto' (even if it's a turning auto) set the collective and forget it!

 

That sounds about right for an R22, but I can't recall a 269 auto where I didn't have to check the collective at least once. The nice thing about the 269, though: if you've got nothing better to do in the auto, the starter button on the end of the collective is awfully convenient.

[jaredsega]

Jaredsega - a real engine failure? What were the circumstances and what happened?

 

Was your reaction as automatic reaction as you thought it would be?

 

I lost power In a 300C a few years back. just grossed a ditch on a steep approach to a taxi way was about 50 ft and the engine gave warning, then lost power! collective went down then came up quickly and we sled onto the taxi way then into the grass on the other side! then I got a crazy Adrenaline RUSH! My reaction was the right one I guess it worked out about as good as it could of.