How does a previous B.S. affect financing?

[CrashC]

Hello all,

 

I'm in my late 20's with a previous Bachelor's Degree in an unrelated field. I have 6 years of experience in my current line of work and am currently employed, but do not earn enough to leave money left over for flight training even after minimizing expenses (sold house, selling car, cut any extraneous spending and already work a second job). I have a cosigner (significant other) available with good credit if necessary. The Army flight physical stopped me from joining the military (medical history that has since gone away), but I can pass an FAA physical with flying colors. My significant other and I are willing and able to relocate to anywhere necessary for training and subsequent jobs for the foreseeable future. An EMS position would be the end goal many years from now.

 

Also, my education, experience and current line of work is in design and marketing. The thought crossed my mind that I may be able to offer my expertise to the school I choose to train and hopefully work with as a CFI.

 

My main question is in regard to how my B.S. affects eligibility for student loans. May I receive federal or private student loans for an Associate's degree to fund my ratings? I attempted contacting SLM but the rep was less than helpful.

 

(This post was edited to slim down the info to just the essentials as not to waste anyone's time.)

Edited April 16, 2010 by CrashC

[r22butters]

You have just joined a very long list of desperate pilots willing to do just about anything for an hour in the air, or a chance at a job. Good luck.

[ADRidge]

Good luck. I'm not gonna be the one to rain on your parade. It sounds like you've definitely got the drive to succeed. It's really hard out there right now in any career field. Doubly so in aviation. One of the reasons I'm getting out of the professional side while I still can. You can take my place.

 

Seriously. Good luck.

[CrashC]

Thanks for the responses (and the PMs). I welcome any advice, good or bad.

 

I'm also a little fuzzy on my options if I were to go through a flight school that is attached to an accredited university. Since I have a B.S., can I get federal student loans to put toward a Masters rather than another Associate's? I don't care which degree I would get...it has more to do with the fact that I believe I can get more loan money per semester for a graduate degree. I attempted to ask a SLM rep by phone and they seemed to be clueless (no offense to any SLM employees that might read this).

Edited April 8, 2010 by CrashC

[Eggbeater]

I would venture to guess that the only trade the flight schools want for hours is cold hard cash. Companies in this type of business rarely want to trade services for their products.

[CrashC]

I would venture to guess that the only trade the flight schools want for hours is cold hard cash. Companies in this type of business rarely want to trade services for their products.

 

Completely understandable. Although, I've had success in grass roots/social media marketing particularly for small businesses in industries that are highly dependent on word of mouth and referrals (i.e. Realtors, insurance agents or training services). It's a relatively cheap way to make connections/prospects one individual or group of individuals at a time. It tends to be a more profitable investment of time and money for businesses with higher revenue per unit (per student in this case) if done correctly, but there are many, many ways to waste your time. Regardless, that was more of an off-the-cuff after thought.

 

My main questions are regarding what financing options are available at this point given A) already having a B.S. degree and B ) the recent changes to federal lending. I've been in contact with a couple of flight training schools, but of course I'm hesitant to take their word for it. I don't want to take out a loan now only to find that the loans are cut off in 6 months.

 

Thanks again for the responses. They are greatly appreciated.

Edited April 8, 2010 by CrashC

[Goldy]

I guess I am the only one that mis-read the "Have BS- Will fly for food" line.

 

Shame on me.

 

Goldy

[klas]

...Since I have a B.S., can I get federal student loans to put toward a Masters rather than another Associate's? I don't care which degree I would get...it has more to do with the fact that I believe I can get more loan money per semester for a graduate degree. I attempted to ask a SLM rep by phone and they seemed to be clueless (no offense to any SLM employees that might read this).

 

You would have to ask your schools financial aid dept if you can get fed loans for an assoc degree if you already have a BS. When I was in college way back in the early 80's, the feds would only give you financial aid for one bachelor's degree; if you had one already, they would not give you more to get a 2nd bachelors. I would assume that since an assoc. degree is lower than a bachelors, this rule would still be true. But, rules may have changed in the last almost 30 yrs....

 

And pls pay off your SLM loans before taking on more.

[CrashC]

I guess I am the only one that mis-read the "Have BS- Will fly for food" line.

 

Shame on me.

 

Goldy

 

 

Post title changed. My apologies for any confusion.

[Vindicated0721]

Hey..I'm in a very similar boat or I guess helicopter in this situation. (sorry i'm corny)

 

I have my B.A. in Psychology, work a full time job to pay the bills, paying back the college loans, don't have 60,000 to 80,000 laying around so I need a loan to get through my Commercial,Instrument, and CFI ratings. I have 13.5 hours towards my private now.

 

Federal loans, unless you find a University that has aviation/flight and you are attending at least half-time, will be impossible to get.

 

Private student loan is really your only option. This web site explains a bit about it. They talk about Salie Mae which does private student loans for trade schools i.e. flight. But beware they are known to have interest rates as high as 10.5% and any payment you make to them goes straight to interest first and never to the principal making it impossible to ever pay them back.

 

Good luck man..Don't go broke over it..Like people constantly tell you and remind you around here..The potential job outlook is poor

 

 

http://www.collegescholarships.org/loans/flight.htm

[CrashC]

Hey..I'm in a very similar boat or I guess helicopter in this situation. (sorry i'm corny)

 

I have my B.A. in Psychology, work a full time job to pay the bills, paying back the college loans, don't have 60,000 to 80,000 laying around so I need a loan to get through my Commercial,Instrument, and CFI ratings. I have 13.5 hours towards my private now.

 

Federal loans, unless you find a University that has aviation/flight and you are attending at least half-time, will be impossible to get.

 

Private student loan is really your only option. This web site explains a bit about it. They talk about Salie Mae which does private student loans for trade schools i.e. flight. But beware they are known to have interest rates as high as 10.5% and any payment you make to them goes straight to interest first and never to the principal making it impossible to ever pay them back.

 

Good luck man..Don't go broke over it..Like people constantly tell you and remind you around here..The potential job outlook is poor

 

 

http://www.collegescholarships.org/loans/flight.htm

 

 

Perfect. Thanks, Vindicator!

 

A private loan would allow me to train with a CFI here in Indy while keeping my full-time job, so that's a bonus. The rates/terms are a concern, though. I'll dig into it and see what they can offer. Otherwise, my only option I'm aware of is to get a federal loan to an accredited school and move to a flight school that partners with it. Paying for room/board while training could be tough depending on where the flight school is.

Edited April 8, 2010 by CrashC

[gmsemel]

Look aviation as a whole is in the tank, and will be the last part of the economy to recover. So in 9 months or so you will be just another low time pilot looking for a seat were there are no seats and the few openings that there will be, they will have a few hundred resumes in the stack. You are 28 years old and you have a job, This is what I would do, continue working at your job and what ever contract work in your field you can get on the side, pay down the debt you have, and well put money aside for flight training. And just do a certificate and a rating at a time. By the time things improve you will be certificated and ready to go collect food stamps for the next 5 years or so with what entry level job pay. You don't want to be saddled with another 80K worth of debt or saddle who ever is going to cosign for you. Its just not the smart thing to do. Sure you are going to have to re order your life, and stop spending money were ever you can. Take the time to figure out where you money goes and for what by writing down every thing you spend money on for a few months then go through the list and stop the things you can do with out. Add it up, then you will surprise yourself that you will be able to pay as you go and not be stuck with interest payments on top of it all. So what if you are 36 or 37 when its all said and done, by that time things with the National economy should be back on an even keel and guess what no Debt. I don't think there are going to be any loans for flight training, to many gotten burned on it and it was something that should have never been done to begin with. Well what is done is done. You can do this if you really want to. And I know it can be done with out borrowing a dime too. I am an example of it.

[geddon436@gmail.com]

good post gmsemel. Got any ideas on jobs without a degree where you can make enough money to save up for training?

[Wally]

I'll second GMSEMEL suggestion that you not, repeat- not- borrow the cost of training, and instead work through it on a cash basis.

1. Getting the training and rating is the easy part. The real challenge is getting enough time to be 'widely employable': 1500-2000 hours. You want max options available until that point. Having the certificates and a significant debt load limits your options, especially if it's also tied to a co-signer.

2. Cash as earned and savings for training will cost you more as you'll likely fly less frequently. Use that extra time to your advantage: learn the industry and network, network, network. It also sucks to put the time and cost in to discover your career isn't a match. I know a fair few physicians and attorneys who freakin' hate their job, but feel as though they're stuck...

3. If your flight school fails, your instructor moves on, you have options and time to pursue them.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Wally

[CrashC]

Look aviation as a whole is in the tank, and will be the last part of the economy to recover. So in 9 months or so you will be just another low time pilot looking for a seat were there are no seats and the few openings that there will be, they will have a few hundred resumes in the stack. You are 28 years old and you have a job, This is what I would do, continue working at your job and what ever contract work in your field you can get on the side, pay down the debt you have, and well put money aside for flight training. And just do a certificate and a rating at a time. By the time things improve you will be certificated and ready to go collect food stamps for the next 5 years or so with what entry level job pay. You don't want to be saddled with another 80K worth of debt or saddle who ever is going to cosign for you. Its just not the smart thing to do. Sure you are going to have to re order your life, and stop spending money were ever you can. Take the time to figure out where you money goes and for what by writing down every thing you spend money on for a few months then go through the list and stop the things you can do with out. Add it up, then you will surprise yourself that you will be able to pay as you go and not be stuck with interest payments on top of it all. So what if you are 36 or 37 when its all said and done, by that time things with the National economy should be back on an even keel and guess what no Debt. I don't think there are going to be any loans for flight training, to many gotten burned on it and it was something that should have never been done to begin with. Well what is done is done. You can do this if you really want to. And I know it can be done with out borrowing a dime too. I am an example of it.

 

Understood. I've already sold my house at a loss, I'm in the process of selling my car and essentially everything else is minimized at this point in an attempt to do just that...save money for training.

 

My options are:

 

1) I did the math and, assuming my income stays the same (which hopefully it would increase over time), I'm looking at about 12-13 years of minimal living to get to CFI. This is with already working two jobs (day job and freelance at nights). I could take on a third job and probably will, but it will amount to less than 1 hour of flight time per month. Unfortunately, at 28, I can't afford to wait 13 years to start my career.

 

2) Alternatively, I can get a loan, get to CFII in 15 months and go back to doing what I'm doing now (except with several hundred more per month in student loan payments) until I can find a CFI job. I understand that it could be years until that happens when the economy turns around or more likely it could never happen. At least I'd be ready to take a job opportunity when it opens up rather than miss every opportunity for the next 12-13 years. If it never happens, I'm stuck with 12-13 years of payments for nothing. I'm willing to take that risk if it is the absolute last resort and only way to open the door.

 

Granted, if I can afford to swing a few hundred more per month in student loan payments after training, that's a few hundred I could put toward training every month. Unfortunately, that's one hour a month. That's 12 hours a year. That means roughly 13 years (160 hours at 12 hours a year) to get my CFI rating. If I ever want a family or enough time to build up a retirement fund, I need to act now. I'm already 6 years behind. Another 13 isn't an option.

 

The only feasible way for me to pursue my goal is a loan, just like every other student in college out there with a loan. I'm fully aware it is a massive risk, with aviation being the most risky. Fortunately, I have an education and 6 years of experience to fall back on if I'm unable to find a job after training, where as most freshmen in college taking the same loan amounts don't. This is what I've always wanted to do but never did because it wasn't the smart thing to do. It wasn't guaranteed. I listened to pilots I talked to in person that told me to run away screaming. 4 years of school and 6 years of work in which I drag myself into the office every morning later, flying is still the only thing I want to do with my life. It is the opposite of guaranteed, but if there's any way humanly possible to put myself in position to take an opportunity that comes along or create an opportunity (i.e. a job flying), I'm going to do just that. My choice is really pretty simple... I can spend the rest of my life doing something I have little interest in or I can risk a decade of loan payments while doing something I have little interest in for the mere opportunity to do something I love for the rest of my life. After 10 years of thinking about it, it's worth it to me.

 

Please let me reiterate that I truly appreciate everyone taking time out to share advice. You had no incentive to do so other than the kindness of your own heart in an attempt to save me a lot of pain, money and sacrifice. I'm not disagreeing with anything you said... in fact, I've been weighing most of it in my mind for the last 10 years. I'm merely sharing my reasoning behind considering a loan. Essentially, it's time for me to sh*t or get off the pot. If every person considering becoming a professional pilot was scared away by the risks of employment, there would be no pilots. I'd just like the opportunity to take that chance knowing full well what the possible consequences are.

 

Thanks again for your time. It truly is appreciated.

Edited April 16, 2010 by CrashC

[Trans Lift]

One of the reasons I'm getting out of the professional side while I still can.

 

@ADRIDGE: Are you working as a pilot right now? Or have you not been able to find work and moving away from it? Just wondering, it was an interesting comment to make.

[ADRidge]

@ADRIDGE: Are you working as a pilot right now? Or have you not been able to find work and moving away from it? Just wondering, it was an interesting comment to make.

 

I'm not working right now. I had a job offer with a guy doing some predator control stuff that ended up really just screwing me out of a semester of college classes. It soured me, and I was already somewhat fed up with the way things have been going for the helicopter industry. I've got opportunities in other fields right now and they're actually paying out, so that's where I'm going.

 

I still fly for fun when I can, but flying as a profession doesn't really interest me at the moment.

[Rogue]

CrashC -

 

Don't limit yourself to just those two options, this isn't do or die. Listen I hear ya, I worked and I'm sure bunch of people here have worked jobs we hated but if you take more loans and then get so desperate to work as a helicopter pilot that you take a job you don't like you'll be right back in the same boat as your in already in all over again. Flying is great, flying a helicopter is awesome, flying for a living - eh, not so much. If you dive off the deep end your chances of being "one of those guys" increases dramatically. If you pay cash as you go then your chances of working a job that isn't so miserable are a lot better because if you do go somewhere you don't like what they are doing you can just respectfully tell the boss man it isn't working for you and tender your resignation. If its a half-ass good company they may try to make it better, if not no other company is going to care what their opinion of you is anyway. On the other hand if you are saddled with debt and don't like your job then you'll be one of those guys on JH forum talking smack about how bad the industry sucks because you can't leave the job you hate because you have so much debt. You say your current profession would be your fall back but why would you want to fall back on doing something you say makes you miserable ?

 

Best advice ever given to me on this website was - pay cash for your Private then re-evaluate.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Rogue

[lelebebbel]

2) Alternatively, I can get a loan, get to CFII in 8 months and go back to doing what I'm doing now (except with a few hundred more per month in student loan payments) until I can find a CFI job. I understand that it could be years until that happens when the economy turns around or more likely it could never happen. At least I'd be ready to take a job opportunity when it opens up rather than miss every opportunity for the next 12-13 years. If it never happens, I'm stuck with 12-13 years of payments for nothing. I'm willing to take that risk if it is the absolute last resort and only way to open the door.

 

That might sound reasonable at first glance, but it is not like that. Assuming you don't get lucky after you get you CFII, you will have to go back to your job like you said, and struggle from there on to make your loan payments. By doing so, you have already reduced your chances of finding a heli job in the future because you won't be able move around and go LOOK for jobs. You won't be able to afford moving somewhere to work part time as a pilot while doing something else during the week, which is how a lot of us started out. You won't be able to accept any flying jobs except a full time position with decent pay, or a part time / low paying position that allows you to keep your current job. Both highly unlikely.

 

 

Another thing - you don't have "opportunities for the next 12-13 years". If you don't fly for more than a few years after finishing your training, nobody will hire you. So you will need to keep paying for a few hours every few months to keep current. You said you could only afford 12 hours a year WITHOUT additional loan payments. Add the loan payments and it's all over.

 

Basically you can not afford flight training right now, period. Getting a loan will not improve this situation, it will make it worse.

My advise is, if you want to get into helicopter flying, find a better paying job, and do the training when you can afford it. If flying is your dream, don't ruin it by making the wrong call now.

[Trans Lift]

Flying is great, flying a helicopter is awesome, flying for a living - eh, not so much.

 

Really? I fly for a living and think it is awesome. I wouldn't want to do much else bar one or two things. It certainly beats the hell out of 99.9% of other jobs...

 

Crash C: Lelebebbel's advice is spot on. It doesn't sound like the rigt time to get into it right now. I have a lot of friends both european and american that have paid out a fortune for flight training and are working at their old jobs now with huge debts to pay. There isn't much hope for them to work as professional pilots. Most of them haven't flown in quite some time now. Sucks!!

[Eggbeater]

"Flying is great, flying a helicopter is awesome, flying for a living - eh, not so much."

 

Truer words were never spoken. Sometimes I think if every student could do a "day in the life of a helicopter pilot" they might seriously reconsider. But I guess that is something you have to discover for yourself; unfortunately by that time you will be so invested in the industry that you really won't have a choice. Don't get me wrong, sometimes it's awesome to be flying. But it's only a matter of time till the "novelty" of it all wears off.