Logging "Mountain Time"

[Tenacious T]

On 702 helicopters website they say " During the hot summer months, the high density altitude in the Las Vegas area allows you to log "Mountain" time in your logbook; an added bonus when applying for flying jobs."

 

My flying career thus far has seldom taken me very far above sea level. Do people log "Mountain Time"? If you do, does it refer to time above a certain DA, time actually flying in and around mountains, or both? I am headed for Las Vegas and would like to know.

 

Thank you,

T

[Chopperman11]

I don't think the high DA's have anything to do with logging mountain time. I fly in foothills in Idaho and log everything as mountain time. Then log anything over 3000 DA separately.

[jimbo2181]

Mountain time is above 5000' DA for government contracts. Yes you should log it as a lot of companies ask for it now.

[280fxColorado]

Mountain time is above 5000' DA for government contracts. Yes you should log it as a lot of companies ask for it now.

 

 

From the horses mouth:

FSH 5709.16 - FLIGHT OPERATION HANDBOOK

11.22b - Experience Standards – Contract Helicopter Pilots

Additional Special Mission Requirements:

Contract Pilot-in-Command (as related to the applicable Special Mission approval):

Mountain Flying (FSM 5710.5) 200

Mountain Flying experience-Make and model 10

Long line Vertical Reference (VTR) experience 10

Annual long line VTR recurrency training 2

 

FSM 5710.5 "Mountain Flying - Helicopter Pilot. 200 hours experience operating helicopters in mountainous terrain identified in 14 CFR 95 Subpart B-Designated Mountainous Area. Operating includes maneuvering and numerous takeoffs and landings to ridgelines, pinnacles, and confined areas (*my emphasis)."

 

14 CFR 95 Subpart B-Designated Mountainous Area: http://law.justia.com/cfr/title14/14-2.0.1.3.12.2.html

 

OR, AMD (Aviation Management Directorate, Dept' of Interior): From http://amd.nbc.gov/library/opm/06-54.pdf

 

"Mountainous terrain experience is defined as: Experience in maneuvering a helicopter at more than 7,000 feet mean sea level (MSL) altitude including numerous takeoffs and landings in situations indicative to mountainous terrain. This terrain consists of abrupt, rapidly rising terrain resulting in a high land mass projecting above its surroundings, wherein complex structures in which folding, faulting, and igneous activity have taken place. These mountainous areas produce vertical mountain winds and turbulence associated with mountain waves, producing abrupt changes in wind direction often resulting in upflowing or downflowing air currents."

 

"Rough terrain experience is defined as experience in maneuvering a helicopter at

less than 7,000 feet MSL altitude including numerous takeoffs and landings in

situations indicative to rough terrain. This terrain consists of abrupt, rapidly rising

terrain resulting in a high land mass projecting above its surroundings, wherein

complex structures in which folding, faulting, and igneous activity have taken place.

Rough terrain features can disrupt smooth wind flow into a complex of eddies or

mechanical turbulence. Characteristic of this type of terrain is the higher the wind

speed and/or the rougher the terrain, the greater the turbulence. "

 

*Edit* Both USFS and AMD definitions stress the type of terrain and maneuvering, not just the DA, is the deciding factor in logging "mountain flying." Flying patterns at Rocky Mountain Metro on a 9,000ft DA summer day is certainly high density altitude flight, but not mountainous flying. Flying a straight shot cross country over the hills is also not "mountainous terrain experience."

Edited August 25, 2011 by 280fxColorado

[apiaguy]

in my experience...

no one gives a rip if you flew a robinson and logged your initial ratings as "mountain time". You are welcome to log anything you'd like and if you notice the map that shows "designated mountain areas" it is pretty much the whole western half of the country.. so if your putting around Vegas or Boise in a 22 or 44 (or anything for that matter) I'd hardly consider logging it as "mountain time".

 

If you actually spent a couple hours in the high country around those areas then SURE... log to your hearts content. The point is logging this stuff in your inital ratings isn't going to mean a hill of beans. Yes, you need to have some logged if you're going to be a gov't contract pilot as 280FX said, but that isn't going to occur right out of flight school.

 

This subject can be discussed to death... it is a little nauseating at times. I learned to fly at a field elevation of 4450... I didn't even think it was a consideration to log it seperately as I logged it when I put the departure airport into my log.

[DynamicallyUnstable]

When I flew in Vegas, I logged "High DA" in the summer months.

I have only logged "Mountain" where there was mountainous terrain.

[Parafiddle]

I fly out of Colorado Springs (KCOS field elevation 6,178') and use the terrain rule for logging time in the mountains. If I look down and I'm over the mountains (steep terrain, etc.), I log it as such. Most of my flight time would be high DA (over 5,000'), but it was also over flat or rolling terrain (east of I-25, which runs north to south through Denver and Colorado Springs). I don't consider that mountainous terrain any more than I'd consider flying over Kansas or Nebraska as mountainous terrain. For what it's worth, our military aero club defines mountainous terrain as everything west of I-25 -basically where the terrain goes from horizontal to vertical. Just my two cents.

[Firepilot]

OK, there is a lot of confusion when it comes to mountain time. 280fx posted most of the relevant information. The only employment where this is a bona fide "requirement" is for government contracts (USFS/BLM/BIA/NPS/etc).

 

Most government contracts are for fire suppression, but can vary to include things such as animal capture or short-haul. Each contract starts with the boilerplate basics that 280fx posted, but can include higher minimums. (Good examples are DOI short-haul contracts at Denali or Teton parks).

 

In reality, no one with the USFS or AMD will ever go through your logbook to look for mountain time. They are looking for competency. Unfortunately, it's pretty hard to find people that have real mountain flying experience. Flying off airport to ridges, peaks, etc aren't a well practiced procedure for most operators in the US, especially in the south-east (Region 8, in USFS parlance)

 

Because of this, the USFS/AMD had to come up with the rough terrain designation a few years ago. There were several operators in R-8 who had issues with the contracting process because few of their pilots could meet the requirements for mountain time.

 

Long story, short, it won't really matter how much mountain time you have in your logbook*. When it comes down to it, all will be decided during your checkride with USFS/AMD. If you know what you're doing, and can demonstrate that you have the skill to operate in the mountains, you'll get your card.

 

* As long as you're not an idiot. Example: If you do your training in Florida, go straight to the gulf, then show up to your first USFS/AMD checkride claiming you have XXXX hours of mountain, you're busted. (If you're unprofessional enough to do that, you don't deserve to be flying in the fire world anyway.)

[sikorskypilot]

Per Larry Roberts at the USFS. He said, you can log mountain time in areas designated in this chart.

My link

 

I know someone has already posted this. Just did my initial USFS ride this year, and that is what I was told by him. No mention of DA

[sikorskypilot]

 

 

 

 

In reality, no one with the USFS or AMD will ever go through your logbook to look for mountain time. They are looking for competency. Unfortunately, it's pretty hard to find people that have real mountain flying experience. Flying off airport to ridges, peaks, etc aren't a well practiced procedure for most operators in the US, especially in the south-east (Region 8, in USFS parlance)

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately Some USFS inspectors do.

[Firepilot]

Next time you talk to Mr Roberts, ask him how he got his "mountain time"

Or about his vast fire experience

Edited September 1, 2011 by Firepilot

[sikorskypilot]

Next time you talk to Mr Roberts, ask him how he got his "mountain time"

Or about his vast fire experience

 

lol, Right? I almost didnt get carded to fight fires in FL because I didnt have any mountain time. HA