Spike Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 (edited) After the tounament was over, he was teaching him autos, just like any other CFI would do while working with a student on a rating! This is where things get confusing… Please explain… While the student and CFI were taking pictures (of the tourney I assume), who was paying for the helicopter? Who was paying the CFI to act as PIC? During the photo mission, was the student paying for anything? Or, did the student start paying once they began the actual training (autorotations)? Edited November 23, 2011 by Spike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 (edited) So I ask you both; If someone from Australia, who built up 1000hrs mustering cattle, came here and applied for a job flying Tours or GOM, would you pass him over because he never had the CFI experience? What about someone who goes the AG route instead of teaching? Is their experience also worthless against a thousand hour CFI? Wow, we’ve taken up a lot of cyberspace with this debate,,, err -rationalization…. No one’s experience is worthless and please, don’t try to spin it that way. Hour-for-hour, in my book, the instructor has the edge. Why? A muster pilot musters. An ag pilot applies chemicals. Therefore, they don’t have 1000 hours of experience. They have 1 hour, 1000 times. I’m no different with what I do. And no, a CFI doesn’t have the same 1 hour, 1000 times. This is not to say mustering pilots or ag pilots don’t learn new things while on the job. To the contrary, they learn new things that are specific to that job (read; no freedom learn anything new outside of their normal mission profile). True story: years ago, I was hired by a well know west coast operator. During the interview and hiring process there were two of us competing for the spot. Luckily for the both of us, the operator suddenly needed 2 pilots and subsequently hired the both of us. The “other” pilot immediately complained about the salary he was offered. As it turned out, even though our total time was nearly the same, he was paid 5K less than me. Confused, I later asked the boss why. He simply said, you have experience as a flight instructor and the other guy didn’t………….. We live in a free country. If you want to believe BP, mustering or ag work will allow you to advance as a professional helicopter pilot then so be it…. My experience has shown me this industry prefers to see flight instruction as a foundation for entry level past experience….. Edited November 23, 2011 by Spike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 (edited) This is where things get confusing… Please explain… While the student and CFI were taking pictures (of the tourney I assume), who was paying for the helicopter? Who was paying the CFI to act as PIC? During the photo mission, was the student paying for anything? Or, did the student start paying once they began the actual training (autorotations)? The student was paying, the CFI was being paid (by Boatpix was my impression). I was paying $100/hr + fuel to fly my CFI around to take pictures (yes I know it sucks to have to pay for that experience, but when you're not a CFI that's the way it goes (at least for me, so far,...I've also paid to experience LE)). My CFI was getting paid, plus a hotel and rental car allowance. He also mentioned that when not taking pictures, they are given a student to train for whatever rating they need. Often times they will go to that students location to conduct said training (he was headed to Ohio to work with a guy on his Instrument, after we parted company). I'm not saying Boatpix is the way to go, but they are an option,...and in an industry so overcrowded with CFIIs, thanks to the "CFII Factory" model, some of us can't be so choosey! "No one’s experience is worthless and please, don’t try to spin it that way" I'm not trying to "spin it that way", however, put youself in my shoes and you may start to feel that anything but CFI experience is! Edited November 24, 2011 by r22butters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pohi Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 I always wondered about that, how a person with a private certificate could do commercial work and not violate the regulations. I'm guessing that's why there are two separate companies, one company whose sole purpose is training and another whose purpose is for photos. I guess therefore making the flying incidental to the job during photos and so a private pilot can do the flying. If that is the case, there is some dancing in the gray areas of the regs, IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 (edited) always wondered about that, how a person with a private certificate could do commercial work and not violate the regulations. A person with a private certificate can't do commercial work and not violate the regulations. If the primary purpose of the business involves flying, then it can't be done by the private pilot. A private pilot can be compensated for his time flying to a company meeting, because the flight is incidental to the meeting; the purpose of the flight is to get to the meeting, not to fly. Conversely, a private pilot who is paid to carry a package to another location, perhaps a box of displays to be used in a meeting, is in violation of the regulation. The purpose of the flight is is to transport, and the flight is no longer incidental to the business at hand. The flight is the business. Private pilots aren't performing the boatpix flights. That would be a clear violation of the regulation, because a private pilot can't act as PIC for compensation or hire. An ag pilot applies chemicals. Therefore, they don’t have 1000 hours of experience. They have 1 hour, 1000 times. I'll have to disagree with you there, because as a long time ag and fire pilot, there are few activities in aviation that I've found which enhanced or built my skills more than doing ag work. There is no activity in aviation more demanding than single pilot IFR, but for pure hand-flying skills, nothing beats ag work. I never said I agree with their business practices, I'm just saying they're no different than any other school (they just require more hours)! In so saying, you've said incorrectly, because their practices are 180 degrees out from what any other school does. You may have mastered autos on the first lesson, but for myself (and I suspect many others as well) it took more practice! So naturally, before you could operate the aircraft, your instructor thought it best to interrupt your lesson by taking you as a passenger on a revenue-producing flight (one in which you couldn't manipulate the controls or act as PIC), before returning to giving you primary training? I didn't think so. That's not the way business is done. Edited November 24, 2011 by avbug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 (edited) I always wondered about that, how a person with a private certificate could do commercial work and not violate the regulations. I'm guessing that's why there are two separate companies, one company whose sole purpose is training and another whose purpose is for photos. I guess therefore making the flying incidental to the job during photos and so a private pilot can do the flying. If that is the case, there is some dancing in the gray areas of the regs, IMHO They only hire CFIs, so my guess is that if a Private Pilot is doing the flying, they just write it up as instruction (probably the main reason they would never hire a non-CFI like myself)? "So naturally, before you could operate the aircraft, your instructor thought it best to interrupt your lesson by taking you as a passenger on a revenue-producing flight (one in which you couldn't manipulate the controls or act as PIC), before returning to giving you primary training?" I don't believe they let actual student pilots do the boat flying? The training to which I was refering was Commercial, Instrument, and CFI. People like myself may be gullible/desperate enough to pay to work for a handful of hours, but we're not stupid enough to pay for non-PIC time doing it! I believe what you are talking about is called a "ride-along",...not sure what's wrong with that? As a matter of fact, during my Turbine Transition, I took the 206 out to the Portland Heliport one night, and one of the Private students came along for the ride. Edited November 24, 2011 by r22butters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 I believe what you are talking about is called a "ride-along",...not sure what's wrong with that? As a matter of fact, during my Turbine Transition, I took the 206 out to the Portland Heliport one night, and one of the Private students came along for the ride. This was a student of yours to whom you were providing flight instruction, while doing revenue flying? I don't think so. You're not a CFI, and wouldn't be expected to know what's professional or what's not as a pilot, or instructor. Accepting a student, then riding that student during the lesson on a separate job making money for someone else in a commercial operation, then continuing with the lesson isn't very good form. I don't believe they let actual student pilots do the boat flying? The training to which I was refering was Commercial, Instrument, and CFI. People like myself may be gullible/desperate enough to pay to work for a handful of hours, but we're not stupid enough to pay for non-PIC time doing it! Justification, they say, is the narcotic of the soul. You're an addict. It's okay to prostitute yourself, then, so long as you get to log it, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whistlerpilot Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 What was this thread about? Oh yeah buying your own helicopter to be trained in. That sounds like a risky proposition to me. It has worked for some. If you have that kind of funds why not invest it in quality training and make sure you are the top of your class? There are no shortcuts to becoming an employed pilot. There are longer roads and many dead ends but no substitute for focused and sustained hard work in my opinion. Desire to be a pilot is not enough no matter how strong, that desire has to be backed by effort to be the 1 in 5 who succeeds. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 This was a student of yours to whom you were providing flight instruction, while doing revenue flying? I don't think so. You're not a CFI, and wouldn't be expected to know what's professional or what's not as a pilot, or instructor. Accepting a student, then riding that student during the lesson on a separate job making money for someone else in a commercial operation, then continuing with the lesson isn't very good form. Justification, they say, is the narcotic of the soul. You're an addict. It's okay to prostitute yourself, then, so long as you get to log it, right? Well this is it for me on this one. You misread my posts way too much! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NORCALAP Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Good morning I am looking to by a 269a. My question is there is only 250 hours left on the main rotors, are there blades available . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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