Examiners failing students on purpose

[nightsta1ker]

That's true. Another one that gets me is the failures, with the re tests the next day. Well that student is just not ready...lets try again tomorrow. What the heck are you going to learn in a day???

 

That depends. If they failed a portion of the oral, they might be able to learn a lot in one day. Depends on how hard they can cram. If it's a deficiency in flight performance, perhaps the candidate was just tired or nervous and a good nights sleep can fix it. Really though, if the candidate does not feel they will be adequately prepared in a day, they don't have to reschedule. The examiners work for the FAA, yes, but they are also being paid by the candidate for their services. They don't have the authority to tell you when to re test.

 

If this is the kind if thing that is happening at your school, I would consider going elsewhere or using another examiner.

[rick1128]

I have spoken to a DPE and according to this DPE they actually DO have a quota of failures to pass that they have to meet. So according to this DPE they actually are expected to fail 20% of all check rides. It's BS and the DPE agreed that he/she would only fail someone if they thought they needed to be failed. Unfortuantly that attitude can't be said for all DPEs.

 

As far as I can find there is no such policy from Washington on failure rates. It sounds like something that a POI might come up with or an unofficial FSDO policy. It would be interesting to ask for a written copy of that policy and see what happens.

[nightsta1ker]

There may not be a written policy. There has been a lot of pressure from the FAA recently to make the tests harder. I think they are leaning towards adapting JAA or Transport Canada's certification standards. The United States has some of the lowest standards for licensing pilots in the "western" world. Europeans think this is the "wild wild west" where we can cowboy it up and basically do whatever we want. And compared to flying in Europe, we can. Even India will soon be adapting JAA standards. I think it's only a matter of time for us before the "cowboy" days we are living in are gone forever.

[iChris]

Does anyone out there believe that examiners fail students just to show the FAA they are not too easy or that they are doing their job? Just talked to a guy at my school who took his CFI check ride last summer. It was 17 hours of oral, and then he flew the next morning.

 

I have spoken to a DPE and according to this DPE they actually DO have a quota of failures to pass that they have to meet. So according to this DPE they actually are expected to fail 20% of all check rides.

 

That’s a little misleading and not part of the FAA guidance. If you have an issue with any DPE, pass the information along to your local FSDO. The DPE is there to serve you. Conducting 17 hour orals is a waste of your time. If enough like-minded people inform their FSDO of these issues they’ll see some changes.

Remember, your DPE is held to a written standard too.

 

13-504 INSPECTION.

 

A. Annual Inspections. All examiners must undergo inspection at least once a year. National and regional guidelines may require more frequent inspections.

 

B. High Activity DPE. In addition to the annual inspection described above, high activity examiners will undergo evaluation at least one additional time during the year. This additional inspection requires that an inspector observe the examiner administer at least one complete practical test.

 

(High Activity DPE. An examiner who conducts 50 or more practical tests during a given quarter.)

 

C. Other Inspections. In addition to the inspections and surveillances described in subparagraphs 13-504A and B, an aviation safety inspector (ASI) may want to consider additional inspections and surveillance of examiners under the circumstances listed below.

 

An examiner whose practical test passing rate exceeds 90 percent;

 

An examiner who conducts three or more complete practical tests on a given day;

 

An examiner who tests a student trained by that examiner without approval from the supervising field office or FAA office;

 

An examiner whose certification file error rate exceeds 10 percent;

 

An examiner who is the subject of a valid public complaint; or

 

An examiner who has been involved in an accident, incident, or Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) violation.

 

NOTE: ASIs, in consultation with their FSDO management, may use their discretion and judgment in the kind and frequency of monitoring and inspections of their individual examiners. For example, an ASI should consider the difference between a pass rate exceeding 90 percent for a DPE that has conducted very few practical tests, and a pass rate exceeding 90 percent for a high activity DPE.

 

Similarly, if a DPE’s error rate is above 10 percent, the ASI should consider whether the DPE has conducted very few practical tests or is considered high activity.

 

Also, in a case where a DPE may have an excellent record for serving the public, and one applicant files a complaint, the ASI may want to discuss the complaint with the DPE, but the depth and detail of the monitoring / inspection / surveillance may not have to be significant. Again, we expect ASIs to use their discretion and judgment and be professional.

 

REF: Vol13, Ch6, Sec1

Edited April 26, 2012 by iChris

[Shaun]

I know a DPE in Florida who passes everyone until he feels he needs to meet his imagined quota. It's like clockwork really.

[jjsemperfi]

I do beleive that this DPE is going to make our school better by ensuring that we churn out some top notch CFI's. He definetly knows his stuff and is a huge asset to the FAA for sure. But that said, it's still anoying knowing that no matter how hard you study, if they feel like it, they can fail you.

[eagle5]

No, we fly 300C's. And there is nothing in the POH about the OAT. He obviously found something somewhere on it, otherwise he couldn't have failed the guy. Still, that is a pretty petty thing to fail someone over. I understand the issue, well if you're on a cross country how can you tell if the temp changed at altitude without the OAT. Well there are other ways to tell, AWOS, stick your arm out the side, estimate, obviously you would know if you took off in 20C and it gets warmer, hey wouldn't you know my Vne is going to be lower. I just hate the petty little things that these guys are failing people for. And the one that really bugs me, and I think someone said it already, is people being failed because of their teaching style. That is BS. If you know the information, but you aren't teaching it the exact way the examiner wants it, that is the examiners problem, not yours.

 

Did the student at least put an INOP sticker on it?

[nightsta1ker]

 

 

 

 

That’s a little misleading and not part of the FAA guidance. If you have an issue with any DPE, pass the information along to your local FSDO. The DPE is there to serve you. Conducting 17 hour orals is a waste of your time. If enough like-minded people inform their FSDO of these issues they’ll see some changes.

Remember, your DPE is held to a written standard too.

 

13-504 INSPECTION.

 

A. Annual Inspections. All examiners must undergo inspection at least once a year. National and regional guidelines may require more frequent inspections.

 

B. High Activity DPE. In addition to the annual inspection described above, high activity examiners will undergo evaluation at least one additional time during the year. This additional inspection requires that an inspector observe the examiner administer at least one complete practical test.

 

(High Activity DPE. An examiner who conducts 50 or more practical tests during a given quarter.)

 

C. Other Inspections. In addition to the inspections and surveillances described in subparagraphs 13-504A and B, an aviation safety inspector (ASI) may want to consider additional inspections and surveillance of examiners under the circumstances listed below.

 

An examiner whose practical test passing rate exceeds 90 percent;

 

An examiner who conducts three or more complete practical tests on a given day;

 

An examiner who tests a student trained by that examiner without approval from the supervising field office or FAA office;

 

An examiner whose certification file error rate exceeds 10 percent;

 

An examiner who is the subject of a valid public complaint; or

 

An examiner who has been involved in an accident, incident, or Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) violation.

 

NOTE: ASIs, in consultation with their FSDO management, may use their discretion and judgment in the kind and frequency of monitoring and inspections of their individual examiners. For example, an ASI should consider the difference between a pass rate exceeding 90 percent for a DPE that has conducted very few practical tests, and a pass rate exceeding 90 percent for a high activity DPE.

 

Similarly, if a DPE’s error rate is above 10 percent, the ASI should consider whether the DPE has conducted very few practical tests or is considered high activity.

 

Also, in a case where a DPE may have an excellent record for serving the public, and one applicant files a complaint, the ASI may want to discuss the complaint with the DPE, but the depth and detail of the monitoring / inspection / surveillance may not have to be significant. Again, we expect ASIs to use their discretion and judgment and be professional.

 

REF: Vol13, Ch6, Sec1

 

So basically, they are encouraged to fail more than 10 percent, lest they be subjected to more scrutiny. Hey, that works.

[Spike]

Study

 

That’s awesome and I’ll add have your proverbial poop together….

 

Why should anyone care how many times DPE’s fail applicants? That is, as long as he doesn’t fail me… However, if I do fail (which I did), I’m quite sure I deserved It (and I did)….

 

I believe the possibility of having perfect applicants every single check-ride is rather slim. In fact, I’d bet the odds are in favor of failing more applicants then passing. I’d also bet, if the oral is lengthy, the examiner is providing an opportunity for the applicant to increase his or her correct answer percentage. Simply put, if you answer all of the questions accurately and correctly, then the oral should be completed in a reasonable amount of time, albeit that amount of time is up to the DPE….

 

Story;

 

A number of times I choose to sit in on some of my students check-rides. One student, who I thought was going to nail it, crumbled on one question. The question was something to the affect, “what does a solid green light from the tower mean while flying with a radio failure?” the kids answer was something like “pizza popcorn and gummy bears…” We, including the applicant, were shocked what came out of his mouth… After the silence broke and the subsequent laughter, the applicant pulled his head out of his rear and continued to a pass.

 

The best of students will lose about 20% of their knowledge due to the pressure of the check-ride. If a survey was conducted today, would most applicants say they’ve received 120% preparation/study/instruction? Sadly, I doubt it….

 

Moral; you go into a check ride as a fail and need to prove otherwise and, it’s all on you. Not the DPE.

 

In my opinion, of course……

[rick1128]

I work at a flight school that has a large fixed wing side. We have 2 ACR's (Airmen Certification Representatives) with a 1st time pass rate of about 85%. And our POI came in and sat in on several oral exams and did a few rides with some of the students. Our POI was pleased with what he saw and heard. From what I have heard, the FAA may be doing more of that in the near future. They are having some concerns about the quality of training over all.

[jjsemperfi]

I understand the whole "quality of training" and the US giving anybody with a pulse a pass on a check ride, I do. However, I think this is more prevalent on the fixed wing side when you can get 230 hours and get a job in the right seat for Great Lakes. This is rediculous. The examiners know that they can throw out private and commercial tickets all day long and nobody will be able to fly. You can't get any job without 1500 hours. The only one that matters is CFI, because at that point, you have the power to actually get those hours and get a real job. The fixed wing world is warped to all hell. I have a buddy who ferries MD-80's and he said his Great Lakes interview in the Beach 1900 consited of telling the interviewer what the MDA was at a specific airport, and telling him the Shaft Horsepower of the ship. That's it, that was his interview, with 220 hours.

[JDHelicopterPilot]

No, we fly 300C's. And there is nothing in the POH about the OAT. He obviously found something somewhere on it, otherwise he couldn't have failed the guy. Still, that is a pretty petty thing to fail someone over.

 

Not knowing the whole situation but from what you've posted I'll add my opinion as to what COULD have happened here.

 

While it stands that the OAT gauge to some pilots may not be a big deal if it's not working....others may dissagree. I do in the sense that if it is determined that a piece of equippment is not required for flight there are some steps a pilot or mechanic have to take to be able to list that aircraft as airworthy. It is this last part that the DPE/FAA will have the biggest issue with. If someone is willing to not follow these proceedures for and inop OAT gauge then it stands to reason they may do the same for something else.

[jjsemperfi]

That's true. I don't know all of the details either, only the examiner and that student know that. When they realized the OAT was inopThey started to take another helicopter, but then they took the one with the broken OAT and that's when he was failed. That particular examiner is also an EMS pilot and I would bet a million dollars that he would still make an EMS flight with something like an inop OAT. I understand your reasoning saying that if he would fly with that, what else would he fly with, an inop altimeter? Lights? Who knows. But still, I have had talks with examiners saying well we're missing a fastener on the cowling, I don't think the structural integrity is affected at all and I'm comfortable with flying it. They said, perfect, I'm good with it too. So I think it's very individualized and personal as well.

[Pohi]

 

That particular examiner is also an EMS pilot and I would bet a million dollars that he would still make an EMS flight with something like an inop OAT.

 

You might be mixing up AG and EMS. AG pilots will fly just about anything :-)

[JDHelicopterPilot]

There is a fine line here. In EMS the FAA is watching much more now. Ramp checks are up, more paperwork requirements and so forth. Most larger companies will have a MEL or MMEL that can be used.

 

Again not knowing the whole story, it stands to reason the pilot was failed more for decision making than anything else since the pilot had another helicopter to choose from that was in full working order. Who knows.

[jjsemperfi]

That is true, all good points.

[TXFirefly]

I've taken 6 check rides and never had an oral take more than 2-3 hours, including my CFI (with a DPE) and the CFII (with the FAA). I was really stressed over the FAA since I was the first student I knew to ever take a check ride with them and didn't know what to expect. Other than being free, it was very much by the book. I was pleasantly surprised.

 

The DPE that my school used, and who I coincidently sent all my students through as a CFI (working for another school), loved to fail cocky young males. You could count on it. I warned all my students of this propensity, and only had one fail (he choked big time and deserved it unfortunately).

 

I do know of several CFI's that have had EXTREMELY long orals, including multiple days and making them teach EVERY single lesson. It sucks that it is such a crap shoot for who you get and there is not more consistency in testing.