Commercial Helicopter Addon vs. Logging PIC

[cgonza15]

I have a certification question that involves some regulations I was hoping someone could help out with. I'm a current Commercial Single & Multi Airplane pilot that will be soon training for my Rotorcraft-Helicopter Addon. I would like to go directly into a Commercial Rotorcraft-Helicopter. Here is what I need help with. According to Part 61.129 © - Aeronautical Experience - I will need 35 hrs. of PIC time and 10 hrs. of solo time (or acting as PIC). Can I train towards Commercial Rotorcraft-Helicopter proficiency and log PIC time each flight? What throws me off is another regualtion - Part 61.51 (e) - Logging PIC Flight Time. I don't see anywhere in that part which indicates I could log PIC if I'm not appropriately rated in the aircraft being flown. Am I missing something? Do I have to complete a Private Rotorcraft-Helicopter before the Commercial?

 

I appreciate any insight someone could give.

[eagle5]

I have seen this question before. I believe the answer was that you just get a solo endorsement in order to build that 35hrs of PIC time?

Edited June 26, 2012 by eagle5

[Flying Pig]

Yuor going to have to complete each step. Meaning there is a Private Pilot RH checkride in your near future.

[apiaguy]

ouch flying pig... where do you get this stuff? Any 1st hand experience having to do both? Cause round here we have had no problem going straight to the commercial... It is called a PIC endorsement when you already have a rating...that allows you to go and do what the heck ever you want (except carry passengers or conduct commercial ops)

Edited June 26, 2012 by apiaguy

[eagle5]

.. It is called a PIC endorsement when you already have a rating...that allows you to go and do what the heck ever you want (except carry passengers or conduct commercial ops)

 

This is for someone rated in fixed-wing who wants to fly a helicopter. Where is that PIC endorsement, I can't seem to find it?

[apiaguy]

I know...you got me... that's why this topic keeps coming up... my post was a little unclear in its verbage and was a little of a generalization on the "pic endorsement"... I guess I'm to lazy to research it more... maybe some genius like IChris could do all the foot work for us... I'm just here to say that you don't have to do the private first based on experience of people doing it that way...If you ask someone else,.. you may get a different answer.

[air_1]

Sorry I have no input on the discussion, but I want to ask the OP if you are going to obtain an instrument rating in the near future, or are you only needing a commerical and will not need your instrument?

 

Reason I ask is, I used to be dead set on just skipping the private and go straight to the commercial. I then realized I'd be wasting (for the lack of a better term) 15-20 hours just trying to get the time to get my commercial. Why not get your private, spend those next 15 to 20 hours doing your instrument, and then you'll be right at the times to be eligible to take your commercial ride?

 

This was just a way that in my opinion used those 15 to 20 hours more wisely.

*************************************************************************

I just realized you said you had your commercial single and multi. My scenario doesn't work for you unless you have your fixed wing instrument and can do an instrument rotor add on.

[BH206L3]

Gee when I did my Rotorcraft Helicopter Add-On I took a commercial check ride. Right on 50 hours as I recall, no written test. Oral and a flight check. This was back in 1983. The rewrote 61 some what and made a real mess of it too. I don't have my logbook handy from '83, I will look it up when I get back to were it is.

[Pohi]

I used to have this question fairly often. The private add on, then commercial, or straight to commercial. In my humble opinion, doing the pvt first, then commercial has its benefits. It might cost a bit more (and not all that much) but to be able to use that 35 hours of pic doing things like working towards instrument requirements or more dual instruction instead of just flying around solo is time and money well spent.

 

That being said, customers have chosen to go either way. It's just a matter of then making sure they meet the requirements and sending them up for their checkride.

 

 

[rick1128]

FP,

 

You don't have to take the private, since it is just an additional rating. It is more effective use of the time to do the private first, but it is up to the student. If you do go the commercial right off, you can not log PIC during your dual, as you are not 'rated' in the aircraft. As for the solo endorsement, it is still a solo endorsement, however, the wording is a little different than the solo endorsement for a student pilot.

[iChris]

I'm a current Commercial Single & Multi Airplane pilot that will be soon training for my Rotorcraft-Helicopter Addon.

 

Can I train towards Commercial Rotorcraft-Helicopter proficiency and log PIC time each flight? What throws me off is another regualtion - Part 61.51 (e) - Logging PIC Flight Time. I don't see anywhere in that part which indicates I could log PIC if I'm not appropriately rated in the aircraft being flown. Am I missing something? Do I have to complete a Private Rotorcraft-Helicopter before the Commercial?

 

 

 

rick1128's post above is correct.

 

Since you don't hold the appropriate ratings on your pilot certificate, to act as PIC, you need a CFI endorsement per 61.31 [d] [2].

 

d) Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations on operating an aircraft as the pilot in command. To serve as the pilot in command of an aircraft, a person must—

 

1) Hold the appropriate category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown; or

 

2) Have received training required by this part that is appropriate to the pilot certification level, aircraft category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown, and have received an endorsement for solo flight in that aircraft from an authorized instructor.

 

You don’t need a private rotorcraft helicopter rating per 61.123 [h]

 

To be eligible for a commercial pilot certificate, a person must:

 

(h) Hold at least a private pilot certificate issued under this part or meet the requirements of §61.73; and

 

You can log your solo time as PIC per 61.51 [e] [ii]

 

You can also log 10 hours of PIC time (Dual with a instructor onboard) per 61.129 [c] [4]

Edited June 27, 2012 by iChris

[Flying Pig]

FP,

 

You don't have to take the private, since it is just an additional rating. It is more effective use of the time to do the private first, but it is up to the student. If you do go the commercial right off, you can not log PIC during your dual, as you are not 'rated' in the aircraft. As for the solo endorsement, it is still a solo endorsement, however, the wording is a little different than the solo endorsement for a student pilot.

 

Probably one of those many times in my life I shouldnt have been so quick to answer (ass-u-me)

Edited June 27, 2012 by Flying Pig

[FlyingBuma]

Don't forget that not getting an instrument-helicopter rating will limit your commercial privileges as listed in 61.133 Commercial pilot provileges and limitations. This could have an impact on your employment depending on the job requirements.

 

61.133( Limitations

(1) A person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category or powered-lift category rating and does not hold an instrument rating in the same category and class will be issued a commercial pilot certificate that contains the limitation, "The carriage of passengers for hire in (airplanes) (powered-lifts) on cross-country flights in excess of 50 nautical miles or at night is prohibited." The limitation may be removed when the person satisfactorily accomplishes the requirements listed in Sec. 61.65 of this part for an instrument rating in the same category and class of aircraft listed on the person's commercial pilot certificate.

 

Helicopters fall into that "powered-lift" category. =)

[C of G]

Find a 141 school with a commercial add on, and you can circumvent the PIC requirements.

[apiaguy]

Helicopters do not fall into the powered lift category...commercial is all u need to carry in the heli. Not that there r manta heli flights that need to go over 50nm....time to get an airplane if u need to go that far

 

[FlyingBuma]

Helicopters do not fall into the powered lift category...commercial is all u need to carry in the heli. Not that there r manta heli flights that need to go over 50nm....time to get an airplane if u need to go that far

 

Then why was that highlighted as part of my training??

 

As for the 50nm, I bet some of the GOM guys have longer trips than that...

[Pohi]

Powered-lift means a heavier-than-air aircraft capable of vertical takeoff, vertical landing, and low speed flight that depends principally on engine-driven lift devices or engine thrust for lift during these flight regimes and on nonrotating airfoil(s) for lift during horizontal flight.

 

 

Rotorcraft means a heavier-than-air aircraft that depends principally for its support in flight on the lift generated by one or more rotors.

 

 

And yeah, I agree. 50nm is nothing for a helicopter. 500nm, then yeah, time for an airplane

 

 

 

[jjsemperfi]

You don't have to take the commercial rotorcraft written, all you need are those required hours that say "in a rotorcraft" and your checkride will be out of the commercial add on matrix in the PTS. The requirement that negates a private pilot helicopter rating in order to obtain a commercial rating is that you "hold at least a private pilot certificate". And you've already got that with your airplane. So there you go.