135 Reg Interpretation Question

[flyingbasti]

I was wondering if anybody has some input on an interpretation question I have regarding

135.243 PIC qualifications for 135 operations

 

I am looking at -Rotorcraft -VFR operations

(I am aware that the requirements change for IFR)

 

The regulation states that:

( B ) Except as provided in paragraph (a) of this section, no certificate holder may use a person, nor may any person serve, as pilot in command of an aircraft under VFR unless that person:

(1) Holds at least a commercial pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings and, if required, an appropriate type rating for that aircraft; and

(2) Has had at least 500 hours time as a pilot, including at least 100 hours of cross-country flight time, at least 25 hours of which were at night; and

 

My understanding is that, for part 135,

Cross-Country flight time

is defined as a flight that involves a landing at a point other than the point of departure and it does not matter what the distance is (e.g. it does not have to be miniumum 25 NM).

 

My argument is based on the cross country definition of part 61, which, in my opinion, excempts part 135 from the mileage requirement, as 135 is not a pilot certificate.

 

(4) Cross-country time means—

(i) Except as provided in paragraphs ( C )(4)(ii) through ( C )(4)(vi) of this section, time acquired during flight—

( A ) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;

( B ) Conducted in an aircraft;

( C ) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and

( D ) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(…)

(v) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for any pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category rating or an instrument-helicopter rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges, in a rotorcraft, under §61.101 ( C ), time acquired during a flight—

( A ) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

( B ) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

( C ) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

 

 

Any input is appreciated.

[eagle5]

So, you're saying that those 100 cross country hours you need for 135 don't have to be at least 25nm?

 

Well, I guess I'll put my money on, you're correct, but we'll probably have to wait for iChris' interpretation!

[flyingbasti]

So, you're saying that those 100 cross country hours you need for 135 don't have to be at least 25nm?

 

Yes, as far as I read it there is no distance requirement for the 135 XC requirements.

[iChris]

Yes, as far as I read it there is no distance requirement for the 135 XC requirements.

 

 

That’s a correct read of the meaning of cross-country under FAR 61.1. The key part is that statement, “Except as provided in paragraphs [4][ii] through [4][vi].”

 

Paragraphs [4][ii] through [4][vi] provide for meeting the aeronautical experience of certain pilot certificates, which requires specific distances. The general meaning of cross-country given in 61.1 [4][ i ] doesn't require any specific distance.

 

61.1 [4][ i ] Cross-country time means—

 

Except as provided in paragraphs [4][ii] through [4][vi] of this section, time acquired during flight—

 

[A] Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;

Conducted in an aircraft;

[C] That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and

[D] That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

 

REF:

 

“It is important to note that the § 61.1 [3] definition of cross-country time (the general definition) is applicable to the § 135.243 [2] requirement because that cross-country time is not being used to meet the aeronautical experience requirements for a certificate or rating.”

 

Legal Interpretations & Chief Counsel's Opinions - 2009/Glenn

Edited July 28, 2012 by iChris

[rick1128]

Many years ago the FAA changed the requirements for at least the ATP. You no longer had to land at another airport. The reason was that there were many military pilots that were doing long range military mission and never landed. SAC used to run B52s from a SAC base in the US all the way around the world and land back at the same base and the crew couldn't claim any cross country time. So the FAA dropped the requirement for the landing. It appears that they have reinstated it but added an exception for military pilots.

 

You know what is really scary. A pilot who came out of the airlines or the military after flying strictly big iron airplanes, got a commercial add-on at 50 hours. That pilot meets the Part 135 VFR and IFR requirements in a helicopter.

[zippiesdrainage]

Mind = Blown

[ridethisbike]

So this begs the question of how it's going to affect everyone's log books? Do you guys plan on changing your XC times?

[flyingbasti]

Thanks for the replys guys (and for confirming ).

 

So this begs the question of how it's going to affect everyone's log books? Do you guys plan on changing your XC times?

As to ridethisbike:

 

What I have been doing for a couple of years already is that I have two columns in my logbook:

"25 NM+ XC" and "XC".

This way I still have documentation of my "regulatory" XC time for the purpose of getting additional certifictaes and ratings.

[Pohi]

So this begs the question of how it's going to affect everyone's log books? Do you guys plan on changing your XC times?

 

Not going to change a thing

[Flying Pig]

The FARs are the classic example of what happens when you get a room full of government administrators together!

[aeroscout]

So this begs the question of how it's going to affect everyone's log books? Do you guys plan on changing your XC times?

I'll just make sure I land some place other than my original Takeoff spot.

[Pohi]

That shouldn't be a problem. Even if I try to land at the same point that I took off from, I'm usually at a minimum a few inches off.

[flyingbasti]

What I am doing is that, like I said I have two colums, "25+ NM XC" and "XC".

 

Flights that I land anywhere else than my original point of departure go into "XC"

 

Flights that I land anywhere else than my original point of departure, at least 25 NM away, go into "XC" AND into "25+ NM XC".

 

 

I'll just make sure I land some place other than my original Takeoff spot.

 

When looking at point different from departure I do not count landing at a point that is within the airport of departure. E.G. hovering to, and landing at a hover practice spot within the airport would not go into either of my columns.

[eagle5]

So this begs the question of how it's going to affect everyone's log books? Do you guys plan on changing your XC times?

 

I only log flights greater than 25nm where I land somewhere as cross country, so no!

[pilot#476398]

This discussion seems rather moot. The odds of a pilot with less than 1000hrs getting a 135 gig are pretty remote, and by 1000hrs you should have 100hrs of xc time (by the 25nm definition) by then!

 

How many hours are we really talking about anyway? You need 50hrs xc (by the 25nm definition) to get your instrument, so at most we're talking about getting the other 50hrs xc by the time you reach 500hrs tt!

 

If this is really an issue for you then go ahead and count all of your xc time using the 61.1b3i definition, but stop when you get to 100, because after that no one cares about xc time until you want your ATP, and that time has to be by the 25nm definition!

[flyingbasti]

This discussion seems rather moot. The odds of a pilot with less than 1000hrs getting a 135 gig are pretty remote, and by 1000hrs you should have 100hrs of xc time (by the 25nm definition) by then!

 

How many hours are we really talking about anyway? You need 50hrs xc (by the 25nm definition) to get your instrument, so at most we're talking about getting the other 50hrs xc by the time you reach 500hrs tt!

 

If this is really an issue for you then go ahead and count all of your xc time using the 61.1b3i definition, but stop when you get to 100, because after that no one cares about xc time until you want your ATP, and that time has to be by the 25nm definition!

 

I don't think that this is universally true.

For one, I am sure that there are people out there flying 135 with less than 1000 hours.

 

Also I disagree with the statement, that you will necessarily have 100 hours 25NM XC time, when you have 1000 hours.

As this might be true for some people, you could very well fly tours, for example, and get 1000 hours but not a single minute of XC flight time. (Neither XC, nor 25NM XC)

 

 

That being said, I don't have any issue here personally, having more than 100 hours 25NM XC time. But I believe it is worth highligthing this fact, that seems to be little known.

[pilot#476398]

I don't think that this is universally true.

For one, I am sure that there are people out there flying 135 with less than 1000 hours.

 

Also I disagree with the statement, that you will necessarily have 100 hours 25NM XC time, when you have 1000 hours.

As this might be true for some people, you could very well fly tours, for example, and get 1000 hours but not a single minute of XC flight time. (Neither XC, nor 25NM XC)

 

 

That being said, I don't have any issue here personally, having more than 100 hours 25NM XC time. But I believe it is worth highligthing this fact, that seems to be little known.

 

Sure, I suppose there could be a few pilots out there flying 135 with less than 1000hrs, and there could also be low hour pilots flying tours, but these are the extreme exceptions! Most of us in the civilian side are cfiis with at least 50hrs xc (by the 25nm definition) and to get to 500hrs tt without aquiring those last 50hrs xc, you'd have to be teaching on a 10 square mile island in the middle of the Ocean!

 

However, I too have no issue with this personally, as I also have 100hrs xc by the 25nm definition!

[iChris]

Flights that I land anywhere else than my original point of departure, at least 25 NM away, go into "XC" AND into "25+ NM XC".

 

 

 

 

That’s another twist in the interpretation, that some may miss, the legs doesn’t even have to be 25 nm long (can be less) to meet the requirements of 61.1 [4] [v].

 

There is no requirement that any specific leg must be 25 nm. The entire cross-country flight may include several legs that are less than a straight-line distance of 25 nm. As long as one leg of the cross-country flight, however long by itself, include a point that is at least a straight-line distance of more than 25 nm from the original point of departure. It's the point within the flight, not of any particular leg.

 

 

61.1 [4] [v] - For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for any pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category rating or an instrument-helicopter rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges, in a rotorcraft, under §61.101 [c], time acquired during a flight—

 

[ B ] That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

Edited July 29, 2012 by iChris