How Does a CFI Maintain Pax Carrying Currency

[C of G]

Since I think we're done with the flight time....

 

Anyone wanna hit another basic regulation?

 

 

How does a CFI maintain passenger carrying currency?

 

 

Does acting as PIC for the landings conducting on a training flight meet the regulatory requirement if (s)he doesn't perform the landing?

 

 

Does a CFI need to maintain pax carrying currency for a training flight?

 

Does it matter if the pilot undergoing training is rated or not?

 

 

Does the landing need to be anything more than a pick up/set down?

[Beatle1967]

Only the pilot flying can log the landing. While giving instruction the CFI can log the time as PIC, but cannot log the landing unless he is the pilot flying.

 

Interestingly the pilot receiving instruction is not considered a passenger by the FAA. Therefore a CFI does not need to meet the 90 recency requirement to give instruction.

[eagle5]

A school I was at for a while would actually let their cfis take the helicopter out once every three months, solo, for free, to maintain their currency!

 

My cfii counted my instrument approaches as his ifr currency.

 

When I maintain currency I fly around the pattern then touch the ground for each "landing".

 

Here's a question; other than making sure you have 3 landings every 3 months, do you all even bother to count/log landings,...post ratings?

[nightsta1ker]

Only the pilot flying can log the landing. While giving instruction the CFI can log the time as PIC, but cannot log the landing unless he is the pilot flying.

 

Interestingly the pilot receiving instruction is not considered a passenger by the FAA. Therefore a CFI does not need to meet the 90 recency requirement to give instruction.

 

Whether the FAA considers them a passenger or not, the reg states pretty clearly that no person or property is allowed in the aircraft unless required for the flight. I don't think a student counts as a required person to execute the flight.

 

 

 

§ 61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.

 

(a) General experience.

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers or of an aircraft certificated for more than one pilot flight crewmember unless that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings within the preceding 90 days, and—

(i) The person acted as the sole manipulator of the flight controls; and

(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required), and, if the aircraft to be flown is an airplane with a tailwheel, the takeoffs and landings must have been made to a full stop in an airplane with a tailwheel.

(2) For the purpose of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a)(1) of this section, a person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft under day VFR or day IFR, provided no persons or property are carried on board the aircraft, other than those necessary for the conduct of the flight.

(3) The takeoffs and landings required by paragraph (a)(1) of this section may be accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device that is—

(i) Approved by the Administrator for landings; and

(ii) Used in accordance with an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

 

 

HOWEVER the flight instructor does not need to maintain currency or even a current MEDICAL as long as the student is rated to operate that aircraft as PIC. So as long as the student has PIC authority for that flight, they can log PIC and you can instruct, but you can't log PIC unless you are current, and you can't count the flight with them as currency. That's my take on it anyway. Fire away if you think I'm wrong.

Edited August 3, 2012 by nightsta1ker

[Beatle1967]

To conduct flight training, there needs to be a CFI and person being trained. The FAA issued a letter of interpretation on this specific issue. I'll dig it up tomorrow.

[iChris]

Interestingly the pilot receiving instruction is not considered a passenger by the FAA. Therefore a CFI does not need to meet the 90 recency requirement to give instruction.

 

 

To conduct flight training, there needs to be a CFI and person being trained. The FAA issued a letter of interpretation on this specific issue. I'll dig it up tomorrow.

 

 

Correct, Neither the instructor nor the student is passenger with respect to the other.

 

'We agree that, for purposes of section 61.57(, an authorized instructor providing instruction in an aircraft is not considered a passenger with respect to the person receiving instruction, even where the person receiving the instruction is acting as PIC. (The instructor must be current, qualified to instruct, and hold a category, class and type rating in the aircraft, if a class and type rating is required.) The instructor is not a passenger because he is present specifically to train the person receiving instruction. Neither is the person receiving instruction a passenger with respect to the instructor. This training may take place, even though neither pilot has met the 61.57( requirements.

 

(2) Your second hypothetical concerns whether an authorized instructor may give another pilot dual instruction in a Robinson R44 helicopter to comply with SFAR73, even though the instructor does not meet the currency requirements of SFAR 73(2)(d). SFAR 73(2)(d) prohibits someone from acting as pilot in command for a passenger carrying operation in a Robinson model R-22 or R-44 model helicopter unless the pilot in command has met the Recency of flight experience requirements of §61.57 in an R-22 or R-44 as appropriate.

 

In this question, you also believe the instructor should not be considered a passenger for purposes of SFAR 73(2)(d) with respect to §61.57(, because the instructor would be providing instruction. We agree with your analysis, that a neither a properly trained and qualified instructor nor the person receiving instruction is a passenger for purposes of SFAR 73(2)(d).

 

We note that this interpretation is limited to the specific circumstances of §61.57( and SFAR 73(2)(d). We also note that our interpretation of passenger is limited to the instructor scenario. Absent the instructor scenario above, except where any individual is a required flight crewmember, the person would have to meet §61.57(.

 

We trust this interpretation has answered your questions. This was prepared by Douglas Mullen, Attorney, Office of the Chief Counsel and coordinated with Flight Standards Service.'

 

REF:

Legal Interpretations & Chief Counsel's Opinions

 

Legal Interpretations & Chief Counsel's Opinions

Edited August 3, 2012 by iChris

[ridethisbike]

How about this one... We all know currency landings made during the day do not count towards night currency, but do night currency landings count towards day currency?

 

I say it does because the reg doesn't state a time during the day that those landings must be completed the way it does for night. I've asked this of a handful of instructors at my school and they seem to be split 50/50.

 

 

HOWEVER the flight instructor does not need to maintain currency or even a current MEDICAL as long as the student is rated to operate that aircraft as PIC. So as long as the student has PIC authority for that flight, they can log PIC and you can instruct, but you can't log PIC unless you are current, and you can't count the flight with them as currency. That's my take on it anyway. Fire away if you think I'm wrong.

 

You're right on that one. I feel like he should have one if he's getting paid for that instruction though...

[lelebebbel]

 

 

How does a CFI maintain passenger carrying currency?

Hopefully any CFI would actually demonstrate at least three landings over the course of 3 months....

 

 

Does acting as PIC for the landings conducting on a training flight meet the regulatory requirement if (s)he doesn't perform the landing?

Already answered - no.

 

 

Does a CFI need to maintain pax carrying currency for a training flight?

Already answered - no.

 

Does it matter if the pilot undergoing training is rated or not?

Already answered - no.

 

 

Does the landing need to be anything more than a pick up/set down

Yes. The regs say it has to involve a pattern/circuit in between the landings.

[iChris]

Only the pilot flying can log the landing. While giving instruction the CFI can log the time as PIC, but cannot log the landing unless he is the pilot flying.

 

HOWEVER the flight instructor does not need to maintain currency or even a current MEDICAL as long as the student is rated to operate that aircraft as PIC. So as long as the student has PIC authority for that flight, they can log PIC and you can instruct, but you can't log PIC unless you are current, and you can't count the flight with them as currency. That's my take on it anyway. Fire away if you think I'm wrong.

 

 

Which one is correct ?

Edited August 3, 2012 by iChris

[nightsta1ker]

For the purposes of instruction, the instructor does not need to be current to fly with the student. This we have already covered. However, for the purposes of carrying passengers, flight instruction does not count as currency requirements. Regarding the highlighted question iChris posted above, I think beatle is right on this one.

[Bobsyouruncle]

Whether the FAA considers them a passenger or not, the reg states pretty clearly that no person or property is allowed in the aircraft unless required for the flight. I don't think a student counts as a required person to execute the flight.

 

 

 

§ 61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.

 

(a) General experience.

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers or of an aircraft certificated for more than one pilot flight crewmember unless that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings within the preceding 90 days, and—

(i) The person acted as the sole manipulator of the flight controls; and

(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required), and, if the aircraft to be flown is an airplane with a tailwheel, the takeoffs and landings must have been made to a full stop in an airplane with a tailwheel.

(2) For the purpose of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a)(1) of this section, a person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft under day VFR or day IFR, provided no persons or property are carried on board the aircraft, other than those necessary for the conduct of the flight.

(3) The takeoffs and landings required by paragraph (a)(1) of this section may be accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device that is—

(i) Approved by the Administrator for landings; and

(ii) Used in accordance with an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

 

 

HOWEVER the flight instructor does not need to maintain currency or even a current MEDICAL as long as the student is rated to operate that aircraft as PIC. So as long as the student has PIC authority for that flight, they can log PIC and you can instruct, but you can't log PIC unless you are current, and you can't count the flight with them as currency. That's my take on it anyway. Fire away if you think I'm wrong.

 

Surely they don't mean that any flight with a person or equipment on board doesn't count at all. It would seem silly to say a person qualified to carry passengers spends 3 months carrying around passengers and then becomes uncurrent because all their takeoffs and landing had passenger which is more than the minimum required for the flight. That's how it reads but it doesn't make sense to me.

[Gomer Pylot]

There is no requirement for day landings, just total landings and night landings. You could make all your flights at night for years and still be perfectly legal to fly during the day. Any activity done at night suffices for day minimums, as long as the other requirements are met.

 

Bobsyouruncle, I think you're misunderstanding the issue. You have to make 3 takeoffs and landings in the past 90 days in order to carry passengers. It makes no difference whatever whether those flights carried passengers, or anything else. You just have to make the takeoffs and landings. If you haven't logged them, then you have to make them without passengers before you can carry the passengers.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Gomer Pylot

[Bobsyouruncle]

There is no requirement for day landings, just total landings and night landings. You could make all your flights at night for years and still be perfectly legal to fly during the day. Any activity done at night suffices for day minimums, as long as the other requirements are met.

 

Bobsyouruncle, I think you're misunderstanding the issue. You have to make 3 takeoffs and landings in the past 90 days in order to carry passengers. It makes no difference whatever whether those flights carried passengers, or anything else. You just have to make the takeoffs and landings. If you haven't logged them, then you have to make them without passengers before you can carry the passengers.

If a CFI were to accomplish 3 landings and takeoffs in 90 days during flights he was instructing it would seem those would count. It certainly sounded to me like somebody brought up whether those could count since the instructee on board is not necessary for the flight. I was making an examle why that didn't make sense to me.

[nightsta1ker]

Gomer is right. You are only required to be by yourself if you exceed the 90 day currency. Let's just say you are Joe CFI. You have spent the last 90 days instructing but have not actually flown 3 take offs and three landings. You decide you want to take your Mom up for her birthday or something. Before you can legally do that, you would need to go up by yourself and do three take offs and landings with a traffic pattern in between each.

 

Edit:damn you autocorrect!

Edited August 3, 2012 by nightsta1ker

[Pohi]

 

My cfii counted my instrument approaches as his ifr currency.

 

 

Interesting, as long as a person is in the aircraft, that counts as "performing" the maneuver for currency? And here I thought currency required manipulating controls.

 

If that's the case, the weather was really crappy when we landed in Atlanta last night.... One approach down :-)

 

Edit: I'm not saying anything about you, just the CFI

Edited August 3, 2012 by Pohi

[nightsta1ker]

The reg states that in order to count for currency the pilot must be the "sole manipulator of the controls", so a CFI that logs a students approaches as currency is breaking the rules.

[jimbo2181]

Where does it say you need a pattern in between each takeoff and landing?

[nightsta1ker]

It doesn't but it is implied. Once again the reg was written with fixed wing in mind. Unless you have a 10,000 foot runway you can't do more than one takeoff and landing without a pattern in a fixed wing. Helicopters are held to the same standards. Asked a DPE about this one. I do believe there IS something in writing too somewhere but I can't find it at this time.

[jimbo2181]

If it is not written it is not required. It is written for nvg currency. I won't be held to implied rules and regulations.

[C of G]

 

Here's a question; other than making sure you have 3 landings every 3 months, do you all even bother to count/log landings,...post ratings?

 

Generally, I will simply make sure I have the currency requirements logged, and that my records appear logical. I certainly don't log every landing in my flight log, but I do make sure the maintenance records reflect it all.

[C of G]

Where does it say you need a pattern in between each takeoff and landing?

 

As Jimbo, I'm sure knows, and this may be where he's going (dunno, and sorry for assuming), but...

 

when 61.57 was written to include NVGO, is specifically spelled it out, but it left the Day/Night Unaided unchanged.

 

 

f) Night vision goggle operating experience. (1) A person may act as pilot in command in a night vision goggle operation with passengers on board only if, within 2 calendar months preceding the month of the flight, that person performs and logs the following tasks as the sole manipulator of the controls on a flight during a night vision goggle operation—

(i) Three takeoffs and three landings, with each takeoff and landing including a climbout, cruise, descent, and approach phase of flight (only required if the pilot wants to use night vision goggles during the takeoff and landing phases of the flight).

 

 

So.... playing Devil's advocate: I have heard that it is the intention, but have not put my eyes on that ruling or whatever. Maybe it's in the pt 61 FAQ? Without seeing a reference, and seeing that there is a further explanation in the same reg, I can see it meeting the letter, but not the intent of the law. Having said that, how does the PTS describe the "landing" maneuver?

 

(OK so apparently it was a safe assumption on my part as he responded as I was typing. D'oh!)

Edited August 3, 2012 by C of G

[C of G]

Interesting, as long as a person is in the aircraft, that counts as "performing" the maneuver for currency? And here I thought currency required manipulating controls.

 

If that's the case, the weather was really crappy when we landed in Atlanta last night.... One approach down :-)

 

Edit: I'm not saying anything about you, just the CFI

 

Not so fast....

 

for two reasons. One: Being in lousy weather does not an instrument approach make, and two:

 

as per

 

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2012/Collins.pdf

 

In your request for interpretation you cite to the Legal Interpretation to Ron Levy, dated

August 7, 2008, in which Chief Counsel's office states that a CFI (instrument) may log

approaches that a student flies when those approaches are conducted in actual instrument

flight conditions, and this would count for instrument currency requirements under §

61.57©. Section 61.57© is distinguishable from section 61.57(a) and ( , however,

because section 61.57(a)(l)(i) and ( (l)(i) require that "the person acted as the sole

manipulator ofthe flight controls" whereas section6L57©(I) requires the person to have

"performed and logged at least the following tasks and iterations .... "

 

So unless you were IMC in the R22, I'd say "Not Current for the instructor"

Edited August 3, 2012 by C of G

[C of G]

There is no requirement for day landings, just total landings and night landings. You could make all your flights at night for years and still be perfectly legal to fly during the day. Any activity done at night suffices for day minimums, as long as the other requirements are met.

 

Bobsyouruncle, I think you're misunderstanding the issue. You have to make 3 takeoffs and landings in the past 90 days in order to carry passengers. It makes no difference whatever whether those flights carried passengers, or anything else. You just have to make the takeoffs and landings. If you haven't logged them, then you have to make them without passengers before you can carry the passengers.

 

To clarify Gomer's post, and again, I hope I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth.

 

 

There is a day pax carrying currency requirement. You just don't have to meet those with day landings/take offs.

[C of G]

Which one is correct ?

 

That depends on what your definition of "is" is.

 

Oh, I mean, that depends on what the definition of "Current" is. Surely there is more than just pax currency? ;-)

[Pohi]

Decending through clouds while getting vectored, and ending up lined up on the runway when finally breaking through is a pretty good indication of an instrument approach made.