mountain flying

[JDM]

what is the best turbine helicopter for rocky mountain flying priced under $600,000

[apiaguy]

the one you can afford to operate after purchase. Purchase price is the biggest misconception in aviation ownership. Beyond staying in your "budget" it should be one of the last things considered when comparing different aircraft.

[DS_HMMR]

what is the best turbine helicopter for rocky mountain flying priced under $600,000

 

http://www.ravco.com/leadville_mountain_training.php

 

Talk to these guys.

 

RAVCO's Mountain/High Altitude Training and Test Site (M/HATTS) is the most challenging training course that you'll ever take. Our training facility in Leadville, Colorado, is located in the middle of the Rocky Mountains and is the highest airport (9,927 ft.) in the continental United States. We start where others leave off.

 

Their favorite bird to fly in these conditions is the BO105.

 

 

and just an opinion here, but I believe cost to operate has very little to do with. If your client cant pay for your bird to fly that mission, that's not your problem. YOUR problem starts (as a Pilot) when you are in those conditions and your bird isnt up to the mission. So while I would agree that purchase price isnt necessarily a determining factor, it's the question the OP asked. So, let's just answer it rather than trying to take him to task for not asking the question we might think he should have asked.

Edited June 25, 2013 by DS_HMMR

[Cineron]

Maybe a 530F or BO-105

[adam32]

Its a very vague question, but hands down it would be a SA-315B for general mountain flying...

 

But apiaguy is very correct, purchase price is a factor but not the one that matters the most. If you can't get parts for your $300,000 helicopter then it won't do much good in the hangar...or if you can get parts but the blades cost more then the purchase price you may have a financial setback...

Edited June 25, 2013 by adam32

[JDM]

It's just a general question has anyone had experience flying an enstrom piston or R44 in the Colorado rockies or what turbine would work best and not break the bank. Everyone has a budget mine is around $600.000.

[apiaguy]

ok.. second go around...

you can buy ALOT of helicopter for $600k... No helicopter except an R44 would be "new" for that price.

Astar

Jet ranger

Longranger

gazelle

Huey

500

480

EC120

BO-105

Jeez... with all the available options one needs to really consider what they're asking...

Between an R44 and an Enstrom I'd have to give it to the Enstrom for true mountain flying... but the R44 would do pretty good up to 8500 in comparison... above that it is hands down the Enstrom. Unless you need 4 seats.

[DS_HMMR]

Its a very vague question, but hands down it would be a SA-315B for general mountain flying...

 

But apiaguy is very correct, purchase price is a factor but not the one that matters the most. If you can't get parts for your $300,000 helicopter then it won't do much good in the hangar...or if you can get parts but the blades cost more then the purchase price you may have a financial setback...

 

Well, if the cost is the question, I'd certainly steer clear of the Lama, and I'd still go with a 105 with -4 blades, even over the 530.

 

the 105 only gives up 700ft in service ceiling to the Lama, but has 500lbs more MTOW and over 400FPM more rate of climb, and its rated for 1 more passenger plus a 4 foot wide cargo compartment. and cost to operate is just that "cost to operate". If this is a bird your buying to fly for shitsNgiggles, then Cineron is right, go get a 500 and have yourself an absolute blast. If you want to "work" that helicopter day in, and day out, in true "mountain" conditions, you wont choose a 500 or a Lama over a 105. And believe me when I say that if a 500 could do it...... I'd be buying one right now, because I love them; and they do have distinct advantages in some key areas. But a 105 in a NON EMS configuration, -4 blades, C20B's, as close to 2800lbs (dry) as you can equip it for your mission, man.........that's a bird that will get the job done.

 

The Lama's single engine, 4 passenger, and only slightly faster than an R22. turbomeca engine... when that engine needs an overhaul your flat out DONE unless you bought it with a backup engine as part of the deal.

 

With the MD, you've got the clear benefit of having an RR engine so service on it is a snap, but as far as getting parts for the bird from MD, just ask AVBUG how royally FKT you'll be waiting for parts from them. Add to that the short tail and lots of opportunity to try to push the left pedal thru the floor in High DA situations, I"d opt for something other than the 500 (which is a bird I TRULY Love, dont get me wrong).

 

And when you say "mountain flying", I'm assuming you mean real mountains, 10,000ft and above. the service ceilings on the Lama and the 105 read 17000+, which means you can fly the 105 full fuel + camera crew at 11000 feet on a 15c day. your not doing that in anything except the 530F, and that's with one passenger and full fuel (iChris, am I reading that right)?

Edited June 25, 2013 by DS_HMMR

[JDM]

So your saying you would and could and have flown all the above mentioned helicopters over Colorado mountain passes? Which one did the best?

[JDM]

Thanks

That's helpful

[DS_HMMR]

apologies, but not sure who you are replying to. But since no one else has, and I'm about to take off....... i'll answer:

 

No, I have not flown all of those birds over Colorado Peaks. I've never flown in a 120 or a gazelle, or the enstrom. though the enstrom is a turbo equipped piston engine.....so, not relevant to the OP's question, then again neither is the R44. But each of those piston engined birds does serve its purpose well, so long as its far below the service ceilings of the turbines.

 

Here in SoCal we have 10,000ft+ peaks that provide the additional "benefit" of being on edge of the desert, so you get 30c+ convective winds pushing up the the 10,800 and 11, 500 peaks during the summer. While its not the same exact conditions as those in Leadville, its a comprehensive test of one's Piloting abilities, way before you hit the ignitors.

 

but just in the mission planning phase, most of those helicopters are going to get lined thru, simply because they wont deliver. the 120 gets the axe as soon as the temps climb. (canadian police cant even use 'em during the summer unless is pilot only). Jetranger is nice, and a proficient pilot can make good use of that bird, plus its capabilities do match what's in the POH. the Longranger is obviously a notch up with its C28, but its not in the $600k range so...line that thru as well. The Gazelle is a sweet bird, if you can buy one with full spares for $500k, with a 100k reserve, that's worthwhile, but......your never getting one for that price unless its restricted class; so its not really going to fit into the $600k limit either. The B2 is a sweet option, but your not going over 10,000 feet in it on its best day. Great for Alaska, great for Colorado during the winter. And last, the 530F. Its a Scalpel that will allow you to get into some ridiculous places, but with that Rotor head, you are going to get your ass handed to you in the mtns. And that's fine so long as you are good with it, but you'll never get a passenger to do it with you twice. But then again, good luck finding a "D", "E", or "F" for $600k. You might be able to scare up a "C" for $6k, but then you are running a lower spec transmission and a C20B (at best, could be a C18).

 

anyway, that's about the limit of my experiences, not issuing any indisputable declarations, just citing my personal experiences along with the occasional trip to the bookshelf to crack a POH or two.

[JDM]

Thanks again

[adam32]

Just hope that the 105 has the C-20B AD done, or that's another $160,000+...

[AS350 pilot]

Okay, I'll chime in here.

 

When looking for a helicopter you have to give us your worst case scenario. You need a helicopter that will perform at: what alt., what temp, how much cargo, how far from fuel?

 

If all you have to do is cross a few ridge lines....well that's a different story.

 

People have already talked about the helicopters that would fit this profile. Sorry but I'll have to disagree with DS_HMMR here about the Astar. My only 2 cents I'll add is: the AS350 is without a doubt the mountain king. A simple google search will show it has all of the records; absolute alt, highest landing, highest rescue record.....

 

The B2 is a capable helicopter well over 10,000 ft. The B3 with another 100+ hp obviously will do even better (that's the one they landed on the summit of Everest). Unfortunately you will not be seeing many SA 315 Lama's around anymore as there parts are hard to come by.

[DS_HMMR]

Okay, I'll chime in here.

 

When looking for a helicopter you have to give us your worst case scenario. You need a helicopter that will perform at: what alt., what temp, how much cargo, how far from fuel?

 

If all you have to do is cross a few ridge lines....well that's a different story.

 

People have already talked about the helicopters that would fit this profile. Sorry but I'll have to disagree with DS_HMMR here about the Astar. My only 2 cents I'll add is: the AS350 is without a doubt the mountain king. A simple google search will show it has all of the records; absolute alt, highest landing, highest rescue record.....

 

The B2 is a capable helicopter well over 10,000 ft. The B3 with another 100+ hp obviously will do even better (that's the one they landed on the summit of Everest). Unfortunately you will not be seeing many SA 315 Lama's around anymore as there parts are hard to come by.

 

Neither a B2 or a B3 are even close to being offered under $600k. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

A BO105 can be purchased all day long in the 300k range. For 600k you could buy a restricted class 105 PAH, AND an EMS equipped 105, and have 100k left over!!!

Edited June 27, 2013 by DS_HMMR

[apiaguy]

wow.. I'm lost. Please clarify DS-HMMR the performance specs of the 105... Something isn't adding up here.

[DS_HMMR]

wow.. I'm lost. Please clarify DS-HMMR the performance specs of the 105... Something isn't adding up here.

 

 

 

Here are the specs for the lower spec'd 105 with -4 blades

MTOW: 2,500kg/5,512lb

Capacity: 1 pil.+4/5pass.

Maximum useful load (including mission fuel): 2,564lb

Sling load capacity: 2,646lb

Maximal operational weight with external load: 5,732 lb

Power plant: 2 x Allison 250-C20B

Take-off power (A.E.O.): 313 kW/420 shp

Maximum continuous power (A.E.O.): 400 shp

Fast cruise speed ( at maximum weight): 243 km/h-131 kts

Maximum endurance with auxiliary onboard tank(s): 518 n.m.

[SBuzzkill]

From those specs the B2 looks like a beast compared to the 105... What am I missing?

[DS_HMMR]

From those specs the B2 looks like a beast compared to the 105... What am I missing?

 

Sorry: Let me go back and quote the OP: what is the best turbine helicopter for rocky mountain flying priced under $600,000

 

Cost of a BO105-4 with All AD's including the engines, as was stated earlier. 300K

Cost of a B2: over $600k. (cheapest one I could find was on Controller, and was 800K.)

 

Sorry if i confused anyone by allowing for the comparison, let me edit my above post and state that the Astar does not qualify for the comparison.

 

hope this cleared up any confusion.

Edited June 27, 2013 by DS_HMMR

[JDM]

If you now take cost of ownership and hassle factor into account how does that influence the discussion on the 530F, 105 and B2

Thanks for the input

[AS350 pilot]

You're absolutely correct DS_HMMR, that you can't get an Astar of any kind under $600k. They will run from $1.5 and up. However, you get what you pay for.

 

Like I said, we need more into from the OP on the mission he is trying to accomplish. I'm a big fan of the 206B3 especially if it has a Van Horn tail rotor on it. It's a very reliable and solid platform that will make a pilot look good .

 

Also, you can buy them in the $600k range.

[adam32]

 

 

 

Here are the specs for the lower spec'd 105 with -4 blades

MTOW: 2,500kg/5,512lb

Capacity: 1 pil.+4/5pass.

Maximum useful load (including mission fuel): 2,564lb

Sling load capacity: 2,646lb

Maximal operational weight with external load: 5,732 lb

Power plant: 2 x Allison 250-C20B

Take-off power (A.E.O.): 313 kW/420 shp

Maximum continuous power (A.E.O.): 400 shp

Fast cruise speed ( at maximum weight): 243 km/h-131 kts

Maximum endurance with auxiliary onboard tank(s): 518 n.m.

• Crew: 1
• Capacity: 4 passengers or 1,135 kg (2,500 lb) slung payload
• Length: 10.24 m (33 ft 7¼ in)
• Main rotor diameter: 11.02 m (36 ft 1¾ in)
• Height: 3.09 m (10 ft 1¾ in)
• Main rotor area: 95.38 m² (1,026 ft²)
• Empty weight: 1,021 kg (2,251 lb)
• Gross weight: 2,300 kg (5,070 lb)
• Powerplant: 1 × Turbomeca Artouste IIIB turboshaft, 649 kW (870 hp) derated to 410 kW (550 hp) each

Performance

• Maximum speed: 192 km/h (119 mph)
• Range: 515 km (320 miles)
• Service ceiling: 5,400 m (17,715 ft)
• Rate of climb: 5.5 m/s (1,080 ft/min)

 

I'd take the Lama anyday over the 105...2200lbs with an 870hp engine derated to 550, now that's power at altitude...

 

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/EUROCOPTER-SA-315B/1982-EUROCOPTER-SA-315B/1283767.htm

 

With a spare engine for under $600k...

Edited June 27, 2013 by adam32

[DS_HMMR]

Hey, no argument with that!

 

 

• Crew: 1
• Capacity: 4 passengers or 1,135 kg (2,500 lb) slung payload
• Length: 10.24 m (33 ft 7¼ in)
• Main rotor diameter: 11.02 m (36 ft 1¾ in)
• Height: 3.09 m (10 ft 1¾ in)
• Main rotor area: 95.38 m² (1,026 ft²)
• Empty weight: 1,021 kg (2,251 lb)
• Gross weight: 2,300 kg (5,070 lb)
• Powerplant: 1 × Turbomeca Artouste IIIB turboshaft, 649 kW (870 hp) derated to 410 kW (550 hp) each

Performance

• Maximum speed: 192 km/h (119 mph)
• Range: 515 km (320 miles)
• Service ceiling: 5,400 m (17,715 ft)
• Rate of climb: 5.5 m/s (1,080 ft/min)

 

I'd take the Lama anyday over the 105...2200lbs with an 870hp engine derated to 550, now that's power at altitude...

 

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/EUROCOPTER-SA-315B/1982-EUROCOPTER-SA-315B/1283767.htm

 

With a spare engine for under $600k...

 

 

Hey, no argument with that! it'll do a little over 100 knots! (good luck getting it to the US and get it to pass an annual for $50k though. )

[adam32]

Hey, no argument with that!

 

 

Hey, no argument with that! it'll do a little over 100 knots! (good luck getting it to the US and get it to pass an annual for $50k though. )

 

Yeah that exact one might be a little trouble getting into the US, but there are plenty of them already here.

[adam32]

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/AGUSTA-A109K-II/1996-AGUSTA-A109K-II/1281227.htm

 

Or get this for a few hundred more and then sell off all the unneeded equipment to recoup some costs while lightening it up...then you'd have a real nice machine that's also real real fast...