Joint ownership

[tradford]

I'm considering going into partnership with a couple of local guys as a 1/3 owner of a used R22. We're in the process of identifying a ship and investigating hangar availability at some local airports that would be accessible by all parties (we're a bit spread out). Any advice from those of you who are experienced with partnerships like this?

 

Thanks,

 

Tony

[aeroscout]

Get one partner who is an A&P. If he was IA, that would be even better.

[Rich1]

I'm not an attorney, however, from a practical perspective and as a long time aircraft owner, I would make absolutely sure that regardless of how many partners you have, just make certain that you have the financial resources avail to make the entire monthly payment, the entire hull/liability insurance should the other partners, for what ever reason, be unable to pay their share. Could be a job loss, divorce, illness, loss of flight medical, or just a partner who needs out of the partnership....The bank and insurance company care little about the financial maladies or circumstances of an individual partner, much like co signing on a loan, you are on the hook.

 

Also critical that you are all prepared for the shared expense of the unexpected, the top end overhaul, an upper sheave that has to be replaced, blades that have to be re painted, or an AD on bladders (20k) or a new set of blades(45k)....especially important w an older or higher time machine.

 

Lastly, be sure to protect yourself from liability...be prepared that in the event of an accident/fatality or severe injury, the litigators or victims estate will come after everyone listed as an owner, or whoever has the most assets, etc.. Regardless of which partner was at the controls...seen it too many times... Even forming an LLC for you personally may be very wise.

 

It's worth a 500.00 visit w your attorney would be very cheap insurance before jumping into this partnership arrangement.

 

I don't want to throw water on your dream, but want you to have your eyes wide open...ownership can be great fun, or a great burden. As someone who rented for 20 years until I could afford to do this alone, I know the pain of waiting and the pure joy having done so...

[tradford]

Thanks Rick - all good considerations. I won't do the deal unless the helicopter is paid for up front. No financing. I'm talking to the insurance company that holds my renter's policy. Still looking for a hangar. I'll have to look into the benefit of forming an LLC. I'm surrounded by attorneys, so that's not a problem.

 

There are already two pilots looking at doing this - I'm the third wheel.

[Rich1]

No problem...glad to help! Just want to be sure that as the third wheel, you don't get run over by the other two wheels A colleague of mine was going into a partnership on an aircraft, were at closing, when the third partner suddenly got cold feet and "wanted out NOW" and it was a significant struggle for the other two to fill the gaps of annuals, repairs, insurance,...plus the dude with cold feet wanted his share covered to get out of the deal... etc.

 

Pretty messy...but it's what we do in order to be aircraft owners:-)

 

(probably a bit of an IQ test, that we all fail...lol) As my wife says, "Other folks have condos in Cabo and Hawaii...we just have stupid helicopters!"....

[cburg]

Tradford,

Some reference material in case you haven’t already looked at it:

 

http://www.amazon.com/AIRCRAFT-PARTNERSHIP-Geza-Szurovy/dp/0070633479http://www.skymachines.com/aircraft-fractional-ownership.html

 

http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/Aircraft-Ownership/Pilots-Guide-to-Co-Ownership.aspx

 

http://www.barnstormers.com/eFLYER/2008/019-eFLYER-FA01-APA.html

 

http://www.skymachines.com/aircraft-fractional-ownership.html

 

http://www.wingshare.com/

 

http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/AVWebInsider_Partners_206940-1.html

 

http://www.advocatetax.com/1308/how-to-jointly-own-an-aircraft-tax-liability-and-operational-issues-2/

 

http://www.lawwisdom.com/index.php?page=viewDetail&articleId=15

[tradford]

Thanks Cburg, that's some good stuff. If I/we go elect to go forward, we'll make sure everything is nailed down in detail.

[adam32]

Don't do it.

[cburg]

Just seems to me that a Robbie is not the best choice for recreational fly for the average working Joe...even though I like them. The useful life limitations just seem ridiculously small, as compared to say the Cabri G-2 (of course not readily available but will last MUCH longer). The local flight school ran the numbers and found they are much cheaper to operate over a long period…for example.

 

What is the real cost to fly a R22 of your own? $225?

 

I would seriously consider an enclosed gyro, such as a Zenon (derivative), Calidus, or Cavalon.

 

http://www.arrow-copter.com/

 

http://www.auto-gyro.com/en/Calidus/

 

http://www.auto-gyro.com/en/Cavalon/

 

http://www.celieraviation.pl/

 

At least fly one…

 

I promise you will have fun!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPjAp-Y08Eo

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQzI0v7WQHE

 

And now that you are Rotorcraft Category rated…a Gyro Class Add-on is nothing.

[eagle5]

If it floats, flies, or f*cks, RENT IT! That being said, I was under the impression that the 22 was supposed to be an "everyday Joe" could own helicopter? So much for that. How about leasing one, any cheaper?

[cburg]

I would seriously consider an enclosed gyro, such as a Zenon (derivative), Calidus, or Cavalon.

 

http://www.arrow-copter.com/

 

http://www.auto-gyro.com/en/Calidus/

 

http://www.auto-gyro.com/en/Cavalon/

 

http://www.celieraviation.pl/

 

At least fly one…

 

I promise you will have fun!

 

And now that you are Rotorcraft Category rated…a Gyro Class Add-on is nothing.

You can own one of the aircraft above outright for the cost of just a share in an R22. Plus they will not depreciate as much. My neighbor has a Rotorway and a MTO gyro. He’s got about 500 hours on his 914 MTO (loves it) and has had several offers for more than what he paid for it brand new. He assembled the kit in 4 days and got in registered in a snap…51% approved kit.

 

FYI I sold my three other gyros and am building a twin-engine gyro now….when I’m not flying the delightful Mosquito turbine.

 

On my three gyros I got back exactly what I paid for them after piling on some hours…just put gas in them…car gas at about 7 gph.

[MLH]

I've owned two R44's (no partners, no banks) and found that the cost of ownership was about what it cost to rent. The only difference was the convenience of opening the hangar door and flying on a whim. Robbie's have a nasty habit of turning into pumpkins 12 years after they are granted airworthiness. You mention buying a used R22, a common strategy is to sell the ship with 4 or 5 years of the 12 remaining, this works best with a brand new ship. Have you considered an exit strategy?

 

Mike

[tradford]

Hi Mike - this is all pretty new. We looked at leasing a 22 or 44 and distributing its use amongst a few folks. Bottom line - the final cost is very close to rental cost per hour (at least for a 22). Having three of us drop $35-40k and splitting cost of ownership (maintenance, hangar, insurance etc.) is about the extent of the vision thus far. As far as exit strategy goes - I suppose it ends with a run out R22 that's worth $25-50k on the market. Question is - can we log 50-70 hours / year for several years for less than the hourly rental. Still got some number crunching to do.

[aussiecop]

Mate if you go for it (much better solution that your previous for the ability to take passengers) look at Mathis Airport, not sure where your other partners are located, but if they are over east of you by my way, that would be a good airport to be middle ground and from what I hear it's a good facility. Maybe someone else who flies out of there is on the boards here too. Good luck mate, I'll be the first to stick my hand up and take some photos for you of the new bird if you get it.

[tradford]

They were talking about Cherokee County, but that's too far for me. I suggested Gainesville and that sparked some interest. Not familiar with Mathis. They're in Blue Ridge. I plan to take a 22 up to Cherokee this weekend to meet with one of the potential partners. One challenge will be to find a hangar I think they're in short supply around these parts.

[cburg]

I used to keep my Twin Comanche down at Williston when I lived in Gainesville.

[cburg]

How about Cannon Creek in Lake City...I may know a guy you can share a hanger with.

[aussiecop]

Mathis is right off 141 and technically still Suwanee. It's just past the Kroger mall before you hit Home Depot. It's a private field, you wouldn't even know it was there if you didn't see the baubles on the power lines on 141, that's what first had me look for one when I saw those. Much closer for you, but also, only at the other end of Lake Lanier, so as far as nautical miles, you're only talking 12 miles further south. It's at the south end of Lake Lanier versus the East side of it in Gainesville.

 

I don't know much about the airpark, hangar availability etc, but I thought I would at least throw it out there for you as an option to check out

 

Cburg, looks like the other partners are in Northern Georgia in the mountains, so that would be another 70 miles south for all the partners to travel.

[Goldy]

TRadford. Do pretty much everything rich1 mentioned. I have some spreadsheets on r22 ownership and I have owned...and still own a beta 2. There is a beta for sale pretty reasonable...just saw the ad yesterday. Email me if you would like a spreadsheet to start with or any questions.......and yes...not a lot of margin with flight schools so don't think ownership is the path to significantly cheaper flying.

 

Fly safe,

Goldy

 

Stevegoldsworthy@gmail.com

[Farls]

Gday guys, please bare with me....but we're looking for some input or subjective opinion on purchase and insurance.

I have been crunching numbers on a 44 Clipper 1. We're getting close to pulling the trigger, on a midlife machine which will have had some major components replaced and all ADs taken care of, primarily for us to obtain our heli licences then fly for pleasure.

We have a company who we have commenced training with who can insure the machine under there policy, with the view that they can use it for training and commercial work when we are not using it, which will bring down the hourly fixed costs of hangar and insurance. The kicker that I'm trying to get my head around is that the company have indicated that they are not liable for the defuctable (10% of hull value) if the machine is damaged, that is left to us the owners. Is this normal practice?? It seems like they get a machine with no liability? You can't rent a car without having to cough up $$ if its damaged, unless you take out extra coverage to reduce the deductible.

Are there any insurance companies were we can insure the deductible?

And finally are there any insurance companies you might recommend, or not, for us to insure with if we decide not to take up the offer being proposed? And kerp it as a machine for private use. Much apprecite your thoughts.