Best Helicopter for ranch work / hog control?

[adam32]

I read on the hiller forum that the factory can make them but they need a minimum of like 10 sets for a run. Or you pay a stupidly high amount.

 

Still be cheaper then Bell 47 blades from Scotts. They are $180,000 a set.

 

For what you are doing, you could also easily use a Hiller C model with the 6v-350 Franklin. Plenty of power and cheaper then ANY of the others mentioned to operate. Blades are about $10,000 to overhaul. Very few time life parts.

[Jwrey206]

 

Still be cheaper then Bell 47 blades from Scotts. They are $180,000 a set.

 

For what you are doing, you could also easily use a Hiller C model with the 6v-350 Franklin. Plenty of power and cheaper then ANY of the others mentioned to operate. Blades are about $10,000 to overhaul. Very few time life parts.

A friend of mine has a C model but he said it would be a great fit for just tooling around but it would be severly underpower in the summer at 5-6k DA. The only upside is the cost to buy an early model. I'd appreciate anyone with hiller experience to chime in.

 

Thank you

[Spike]

All things being equal with regards to safety, there is no difference between the machines you are considering, other than the cost. That is, each machine will have a safety factor pro and con. And yes, the 500 has a higher degree of crash survivability (crashworthiness) then most helicopters. However, if you plan on bumping into things, I’d suggest you stick to ground transportation…..

The predominate helicopter being flown each year by “novices” while logging hundreds of thousands of hours, safely, is the R44….. Something to be said about that…..

Additionally, 2nd to cost is reliability and the accessibility to spare parts and, accessibility to an experienced qualified mechanic …..

Frankly, if I’m the boss and you show up with a machine that I just paid crap load of money to purchase and within a short period of time, I need to come up with another bag of cash to pay for whatever, my opinion of your choice of machine may reflect upon your further employment……

Edited December 5, 2014 by Spike

[lelebebbel]

Spike is absolutely correct, the R44 is the most economical and practical solution. More hogs are shot and more cattle is mustered in R22s and R44s every year than any other type, since all of Australia runs on them. They have almost completely replaced the S300, Hillers, and B47s that where used for this same work two decades ago. For good reason. Like Robinson or not, they are simply 30+ years more modern than those other types, and it shows when you look at fuel burn, maintenance, speed and reliability.

 

The R22 does ok as a mustering machine, but it is marginal both in cabin space, as well as power, once you add a shooter+ammo. Especially when you have hot weather and brush type country that may require you to hover while shooting. The R44 works very well for this work. A Raven 1 will cost less to buy and run, and it doesn't sound like you need the slightly better perfomance of the Raven II.

 

Mast bumping is absolutely not a concern unless the pilot is completely hopeless, and in that case they will find a way to crash any kind of helicopter doing this kind of work. Hogs run around 20mph max, and only for a short time, so if someone manages to induce a low-G situation while chasing them then you really can't blame it on the machine. An R44 with only two people on board has pretty good autorotation characteristics as well, if you are worried about that. Most importantly, they simply tend to not have engine failures, as long as you don't run out of gas.

 

The one potentially relevant thing that they aren't all that great at is impact/crash protection. If that worries you too much, I would suggest an old Jet Ranger II instead.

 

 

I'm far from the most experienced mustering/shooting pilot out there, but I do speak from personal experience.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2014 by lelebebbel

[eagle5]

Too bad his boss isn't a fan of the 44.

[Jwrey206]

I appreciate the input and advice from you all. The 44 isn't completely out of the question and I do tend to agree that maintenance would be easier on a Robbi.

 

However, I still have an issue saying that the 44 is as safe as the enstrom/47 when you are operating down low and slow. I'm only speaking of the autorotation capability. If I'm missing the point I apologize, and I'm not trying to start a Robbi vs everyone war. I'm simply trying to pick the safest helicopter for our operation.

 

As I've said before, I'm new to this side of the house and only have a desire to learn.

[lelebebbel]

The R44 doesn't have the highest inertia system ever, but it isn't terrible either. Note that the H/V curve are based on a machine at max takeoff weight, things change significantly in your favour when operating 400 pounds below that.

 

Also, the chart shows at what speed/height you can expect to land without damage to the machine on a flat hard surface directly in front of you. If you are flying over trees for example, it becomes a lot less relevant.

 

The question you have to ask yourself is, how should you weigh the safety provided by the higher inertia rotor system compared to other features of the machine? The most likely cause for an accident in a low level operation like this is collision with wires or other obstacles - by far.

Followed probably by over pitching and resulting loss of lift (downwind turns, loss of ETL). Engine failures appear way, way, way down the list.

 

It should be noted that the R44 can not be fitted with a wire strike kit because the cabin roof doesn't have enough support structure. If there is a reason to decide against Robinson in the name of safety, this - and the impact resistance mentioned previously - would be the one (well, do you have wires on your farm?). That also rules out the B47 as far as I know. Don't know about Hillers or Enstroms. The Bell 206 can be equipped with pretty effective wire strike protection though.

Edited December 6, 2014 by lelebebbel

[Mikemv]

I read on the hiller forum that the factory can make them but they need a minimum of like 10 sets for a run. Or you pay a stupidly high amount.

And where is that Hiller factory exactly?

[adam32]

Firebaugh, CA. Good luck getting an answer from them or just about anything. I had a friend go down, called from their parking lot saying he wanted to buy two E models from them and they wouldn't even let him in the door.

[eagle5]

I appreciate the input and advice from you all. The 44 isn't completely out of the question and I do tend to agree that maintenance would be easier on a Robbi.

However, I still have an issue saying that the 44 is as safe as the enstrom/47 when you are operating down low and slow. I'm only speaking of the autorotation capability. If I'm missing the point I apologize, and I'm not trying to start a Robbi vs everyone war. I'm simply trying to pick the safest helicopter for our operation.

As I've said before, I'm new to this side of the house and only have a desire to learn.

Which is more important, auto characteristics, or engine failure odds?

[HighCountry]

Which is more important, auto characteristics, or engine failure odds?

Depends if the engine is still running or not...

[Spike]

When you operate a machine which has a solid history of being well maintained and, a competent mechanic who continues to keep it that way, the possibility of an engine failure is reduced along with the need to perform the auto…….. Don’t do these things and all bets are off…..

[Spike]

I appreciate the input and advice from you all. The 44 isn't completely out of the question and I do tend to agree that maintenance would be easier on a Robbi.

 

However, I still have an issue saying that the 44 is as safe as the enstrom/47 when you are operating down low and slow. I'm only speaking of the autorotation capability. If I'm missing the point I apologize, and I'm not trying to start a Robbi vs everyone war. I'm simply trying to pick the safest helicopter for our operation.

 

As I've said before, I'm new to this side of the house and only have a desire to learn.

 

If you're planning on shooting from either of these machines, you'll be in the curve. If I'm gaugeing you concern accurately, the boss won’t be happy. Why? The machine you describe WILL BE the Bell 206BIII. In some circles, considered the safest aircraft there is…… Oh, and don’t go cheap. Get a newer one with low time, like just below the $1M mark…….

Edited December 7, 2014 by Spike

[iChris]

However, I still have an issue saying that the 44 is as safe as the enstrom/47 when you are operating down low and slow. I'm only speaking of the autorotation capability.

 

If I'm missing the point I apologize, and I'm not trying to start a Robbi vs everyone war. I'm simply trying to pick the safest helicopter for our operation.

 

 

If you’re really concerned about safety you need to look more at who’s going to be flying the helicopter on these missions. The aircraft is often not the weakest link.

 

Are you and your boss (low time helicopter types) planning on doing the flying?

 

According to National Transportation Board (NTSB) statistics, in the last 20 years, approximately 85 percent of aviation accidents have been caused by “pilot error.” Many of these accidents are the result of the tendency to focus flight training on the physical aspects of flying the aircraft by teaching the student pilot enough aeronautical knowledge and skill to pass the written and practical tests. - Risk Management; Introduction; FAA-H-8083-2; 2009

 

Unless you have an experience Helicopter Pilot/Mechanic readily available to help you on this, the Hiller or Bell 47 will eat your lunch on upkeep and maintenance.

 

Reasonable options:

 

R44 (SFAR requirement) (Easy to hangar)

 

Enstrom (good aircraft)

 

R66 (entry level turbine helicopter)

 

Bell 206 (Excellent aircraft) (Easy to hanger)

 

MD 500C/D (Excellent utility aircraft)

 

Or

 

Think it over some more; do we really need a helicopter?

Edited December 7, 2014 by iChris