Carpenter Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) I am never short of amazed at the lack of professional integrity by employers in this industry. Upon continual overview of job ads posted here and elsewhere, I see some absurd and unlawful questions and preferences posted. How long can an industry sustain itself with pilots willing to be subjected to this nonsense? Some examples are: *a recent job application asked what your age is, which is against equal opportunity Federal law, *another job ad asked if you were "an anal workaholic", * multiple jobs that aren't paying minimum wages (much less overtime) which is against Federal law, * several recent job ads asking applicants to list "non-aviation" skills. Seriously folks, I find this behavior repulsive. I would like to ask those of you out there to strive to become better than this in our work industry. To all employers and employees alike, we can do better than this. In addition I see a lot of ads with weight restrictions for pilot employment at flight schools which to a degree I can understand, but how many of these same schools will take money from aspiring pilots heavier than their hiring limits knowing that the pilot will never be hired within the organization much less elsewhere? Let's do more, let's be more! Thank You Edited February 10, 2015 by Carpenter 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_P148 Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 May I ask why non aviation skills is a lack of professional integrity? Isn't a loaded question, I'm just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UH60L-IP Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 An "anal workaholic." Inappropriate? Probably. Illegal? Certainly not. It's their company. They can represent it the way they want. "Non-aviation skills" Quite appropriate. Management experience, computer experience, customer relations, writing proficiency, and the like are all very good discriminators between one applicant and another. Very few flying jobs are all about flying. Many industries require degrees that do not necessarily have to do with the job at hand. Is it wrong for someone to accept a Bachelor's degree in business if the job is in Computer Sciences? "Age" Depends. Sometimes ok and sometimes not. Many federal jobs require a maximum age of 37 due to job specific mandatory retirement at 57 (20 years minimum to retire). Many jobs require you to be a certain age, i.e. 21 for mostlaw enforcement agencies. Weight restrictions Why not? The heavier you are the more fuel you burn. That costs money. Weight is often considered by huge airlines that carry 300 passengers on board. Weight is weight. It also goes to health, which operators can legally take into account (risk factors that is). Maybe not if you were sitting at a desk typing on a computer, but definitely when acting as PIC. Operators can hold their employees to a higher standard than a Class II or Class I medical. "Aren't paying minimum wage" I agree wages are low in many helicopter job sectors. That doesn't make it illegal. There are a plethora of exceptions to minimum wage, overtime, etc. Many salaried employees work 50 hours per week with no overtime. Many of those big airlines pay their pilots by the flight hour (or at least a much different wage for non-flight time). Many sit on the tarmac making not one red cent. It is not illegal. My mother retired as a flight attendant. I remember her griping about United Airlines 20 years ago not paying her until they were in the air, but her working for an hour or more before takeoff. All that doesn't seem fair is not illegal. Yes, I'd like to see the industry work to see higher wages. That's beside the point. Capitalism (which this country still exercises - at least in theory) means that employers may post a job with wide latitude. They can pay low wages and attract a lesser applicant or higher wages and be more discerning. If there is an applicant willing to work for that which is offered I see no reason why a business should be forced to pay more. That's socialism. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carpenter Posted February 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Joe, that's a great question. An employer wants to attract talent outside flying skills like sales, marketing, supervisory, etc. This is reasonable and normal.I personally have had inquiries for employment that can only be referred to as derogatory and infamous; it is that kind of behavior that lacks the professional integrity that I refer to. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 What do you expect, we're in a pilot shortage! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 If you don't like the wage, don't apply there. Unethical employers who pay poverty wages know that there are enough applicants willing to prostitute themselves that they can get away with low wages, or charging someone to work for them. Many employers want to know what additional skills you may have, in addition to flying an aircraft. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a job application in or out of aviation that didn't ask about additional skills. It's in your best interest to cite as many skills as you can. An employee who is good with a computer, or who can turn wrenches, or has other valuable skill to contribute may have a leg up on the competition. Many employers hire contract employees that work off a 1099. What you may think of as regular labor law doesn't necessarily apply due to the work relationship. If you feel a job application violates your rights or ad advertisement isn't for you, don't apply. It's not really rocket science. Give it a miss and move on to an employer more suited to your tastes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) Applicants willing to prostitute themselves? Are we giving them sexual favors in return for flight hours now? No we low timers can't be prostitutes. Have you been to the bunny ranch? Prostitutes make like a grand an hour!...come to think of it I'd love to be a prostitute! ...but like with a recent tour job post, I'm too fat! Edited February 10, 2015 by eagle5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
500F Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 I don't have a problem with any of those questions. There are laws a against discriminating based on age, unless you have a valid reason to. There is no law that says they cannot ask. Just like there is no law that says you must consent to a search of your vehicle if you get pulled over, but there is no law that says a cop cant ask. On jobs that have a mixture of paid and non-paid time you have to net at least minimum wage in most cases. MEANING they can work make you sit for free, and pay you by the hour for flight as long as you end up making minimum wage based on your total hours worked. Its the same for waitresses, they can make less than minimum wage (in all states except Oregon) but if they net less than minimum wage after tips, the company would have to make up the difference. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carpenter Posted February 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 500F, I agree with you. Regarding minimum wage from my above post, here's the scenario from an employer: A tour job that averages about 25 hours per month; the flight pay was $25/hr. When not flying the pilot was required to perform non-flight duties at $0/hr for the remainder of six ten hour workdays per week. This schedule was mandatory. This was a job offer I had a few years ago and after querying for clarification, I withdrew my application. $2.48 an hour is less than minimum wage under Federal law. I understand free market supply and demand economics, desperate pilots, and blah blah blah. I guess I shouldn't be so naive to think this is uncommon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
500F Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 As an alternative, you could agree to the job, work the hours, log your hours and force them to reimburse you for the difference. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymous??? Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 I am just going to wait for the Vietnam era pilots to retire..... Then the industry will be dying to hire me at my 400 hours... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 500F, I agree with you. Regarding minimum wage from my above post, here's the scenario from an employer: A tour job that averages about 25 hours per month; the flight pay was $25/hr. When not flying the pilot was required to perform non-flight duties at $0/hr for the remainder of six ten hour workdays per week. This schedule was mandatory. This was a job offer I had a few years ago and after querying for clarification, I withdrew my application. $2.48 an hour is less than minimum wage under Federal law. I understand free market supply and demand economics, desperate pilots, and blah blah blah. I guess I shouldn't be so naive to think this is uncommon. There are PLENTY of jobs in aviation which include additional duties and hours, and which are not paid on an hour for hour basis. When I worked international long haul, I was gone typically 17-35 days at a time. That's 24 hours a day, seven days a week, away from my home and my bed, usually in some foreign country. I wasn't paid by the hour that I was gone. If you figure a work day as a day at the office, I left for the office and returned after 840 hours at the office. Think about that when you're asked to do a few extra things when not flying. You must not have flown corporate, when one does considerable waiting for passengers, or fire when one stands by up to 14 hours a day, washes the aircraft, and in many cases, performs field maintenance (depending on the employer). Ever flown ag? There's generally no pay for keeping the machine running, cleaning nozzles, mixing chemical, or doing any of the other functions typical of an agricultural operation, but if they don't get done, the aircraft doesn't fly and you don't get paid. It's common at grand canyon operations to have additional duties. Get over it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_P148 Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 I am just going to wait for the Vietnam era pilots to retire..... Then the industry will be dying to hire me at my 400 hours...Lol, You forgot about the OIF / OEF guys and gals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 As an alternative, you could agree to the job, work the hours, log your hours and force them to reimburse you for the difference. I don't know how some people sleep at night. Raping, pillaging and enslaving must become just another job.Wally, a happy union member. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_P148 Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 I don't know how some people sleep at night.Easy, don't drink coffee after 8pm. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
500F Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 In this life everyone gets what they are worth as long as they fight for it Wally. As a 500 hour wonder, the risk to the employer outweighs the reward, and supply far exceeds demand. You are going to have to work for cheap. If you are any good, and have any ambition, you will get a raise, a promotion, or move to a better job within a year, two max. If you are going through this at 20 or 21 good on you, Think of it as a stepping stone, you'll be making 100k per year by the time you are 30 if you don't let yourself stagnate. If you are going through this at 41, don't blame the system, blame it on the mistakes you made 20 years ago. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) [quote name="500F" post="163428" timestamp="1423673843 If you are going through this at 41, don't blame the system, blame it on the mistakes you made 20 years ago. You have it backwards. Getting into this when you're older is much better. You have a well established career to fall back on (or support you after you take the $400/mo. job). You have a well lived life to look back on (i.e. you didn't sacrifice 5 girlfriends and 2 marriages to fly anywhere you could just to build exp. Not to mention that at 41 the kids are gone and the house is paid off giving you money for training). Plus if the career change doesn't work out your still a pilot, but unlike a 20 year old you have a good paying job to go back to that will allow you to continue flying...so you'll never be that kid who posts, "I haven't flown since my cfii ride 2 years ago!" Edited February 11, 2015 by eagle5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_P148 Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 You have it backwards. Getting into this when you're older is much better. You have a well established career to fall back on (or support you after you take the $400/mo. job). You have a well lived life to look back on (i.e. you didn't sacrifice 5 girlfriends and 2 marriages to fly anywhere you could just to build exp. Not to mention that at 41 the kids are gone and the house is paid off giving you money for training). Plus if the career change doesn't work out your still a pilot, but unlike a 20 year old you have a good paying job to go back to that will allow you to continue flying...so you'll never be that kid who posts, "I haven't flown since my cfii ride 2 years ago!"I 2nd you on that only because I would only accept a job like that if I have a military retirement to fall back on. Since most retired pilots have a few thousand hours I don't expect to have to worry about scraping by for 400 a month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
500F Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 It doesn't take till 40 to have a contingency plan. I started flying at 25 and already had 2 careers before that to draw experience on. I could go back to either if I wished it, and live comfortably. No kids yet.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apacheguy Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 It doesn't take till 40 to have a contingency plan. I started flying at 25 and already had 2 careers before that to draw experience on. I could go back to either if I wished it, and live comfortably. No kids yet.... That's smart for everyone, not just pilots. It's always good to have skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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