Is the magic number 2000 now?

[Astro]

Seems like I'm meeting more and more guys around 1500 hours who can't get out of teaching!

[takefootoff]

the other instructor at my school had +1300hrs last spring when he sent out resumes...better luck next year i guess

[Little Bird]

Well, when you reach 2000 surely it'll be 2500...

[Astro]

2500 hours to finally move on to flying tours in the ditch? What a disappointment that would be!

[rotormandan]

There is no magic number

[Whiteshadow]

The magic number is whatever you have (as long as it is the minimum). After you reach minimum, it is up to you at that point to tell them why THEY NEED YOU, not why you need them. There are many people in the industry that I have already met who have no idea how to truly network, or how to properly go out there and knock on those doors and show those employers what they are missing out on by not having them on their team.

 

Everyone's resume looks the same. Everyone who walks in the door, of their own fortitude does not look the same. And it is from that pool of people that new hires are actually chosen. That is when you actually make your move to stand out and get hired.

[Spike]

The magic number is whatever you have (as long as it is the minimum).

 

Not necessarily…. I’ve obtained quite a number of jobs without meeting the minimums… And, I agree, there is no magic number….. The true magic is actually, not having the time and still getting the job…..

[r22butters]

I pissed away a butt-load of money on that stupid R-44 because I thought I needed to reach a "magic number"! Turns out it was my personality that kept me from getting the job offer!,...who'd of thought huh? Everyone knows I'm such a happy-go-lucky bundle of optimism right,...HA!

 

In the end it was networking that got me the second worst job I've ever had.

 

,...but then I too have me some 1500hr or so pilots who can't seem to move up, so who knows these days, what with the trouble in the GOM and all?

[avbug]

Published minimums are not the same as competitive minimums. A company may advertise 1,500 hours. When every other applicant in the room has ten years experience and 8,000 hours, the minimums you need are those necessary to compete with the other applicants, not what the company has advertised.

 

If you have considerably less but have connections, unique qualifications (additional time in type, etc) or other reason, you may still be competitive.

 

If no one else shows up for the job, all bets are off.

[Hand_Grenade_Pilot]

1500-2000 PIC seems to be what's needed to be competitive for a turbine tour gig or entry level utility in an R44. Having the hours isn't enough though. Networking is critical, especially when the market is saturated with pilots looking for work. Networking alone won't get you a job, but will at least tip you off as to where and when you should show up to drop your resume in person. Many operators don't post openings publicly; all four of the companies I've flown for so far didn't post the job I ended up getting.

Edited August 13, 2016 by Hand_Grenade_Pilot

[Whiteshadow]

Of course, there are special cases, and there is no one single thing that gets people hired. In my opinion, you have to present a "whole package" and show them like I said before, why THEY NEED YOU on the team.

 

I got hired at 1000.2 hours PIC, when 1000.0 was required. All instructional, no turbine. A couple of friends got in touch with me after they heard that I got hired. They knew people who interviewed and didn't get hired who already had over 2,500 PIC and lots of turbine. My friends wanted to know how in the hell I could have gotten hired over those guys!?

 

They were under the impression that it was only about the numbers, whoever has the most hours wins. They wanted to know what I "did" to get the job over these others who were "obviously more qualified than me".

 

That's where the "whole package" idea come into play. I made a meet and greet trip when I had about 990 PIC to hand out resumes and shake hands. At the meet ups, I showed them:

 

- Initiative

- Motivation

- Personality

- Willingness to do more (than send an email)

- Goals for the future

- What I can bring to the table for them

- Why others would want to work alongside me

 

I got a tour of the facility at the place that ended up hiring me. I thanked them for their time and told them I enjoyed seeing the operation and meeting everyone, and that I looked forward to hearing back from them "if they think that I had a place there".

 

One week later the Chief Pilot called me and asked if I could return in 4 days for an interview. I went to the interview and walked out 2 hours later with a job.

 

I barely made the minimums

I'm not the smartest guy in the world

I'm not the greatest flyer they've ever seen

I botched several things during the oral and the flight portion of the interview

 

But I also sold them on what will make me a valuable member of the team. I explained how my employment there would be mutually beneficial. I told them verbatim, "I need this job, and you need a guy like me". That kind of confidence and personality is what actually got me the job, I believe.

[helonorth]

Not to burst your bubble, but you probably came cheap, too.

[Whiteshadow]

It's salary, so everyone they hire starts the same. I make a fine salary for my experience level I'd say.

 

Also, it's impossible to burst my bubble. I know exactly where I am in the industry, I know exactly what I am worth, and I know exactly how to get to where I want to be. So far my career path has been exactly as I expected it to be, because I refuse to allow the negativity of the industry get me down.

 

I've been in the industry a few years now, and I still can't believe how many people will try to take a post like mine above, which is meant to be a positive and encouraging discussion about how low timers can make it in the industry if they have the right attitude......and turn it into something negative. I could never imagine thinking that way, but that's just me. Someone who seems to have "miraculously" found employment without any problems so far.

[r22butters]

Of course, there are special cases, and there is no one single thing that gets people hired. In my opinion, you have to present a "whole package" and show them like I said before, why THEY NEED YOU on the team.

 

I got hired at 1000.2 hours PIC, when 1000.0 was required. All instructional, no turbine. A couple of friends got in touch with me after they heard that I got hired. They knew people who interviewed and didn't get hired who already had over 2,500 PIC and lots of turbine. My friends wanted to know how in the hell I could have gotten hired over those guys!?

 

They were under the impression that it was only about the numbers, whoever has the most hours wins. They wanted to know what I "did" to get the job over these others who were "obviously more qualified than me".

 

That's where the "whole package" idea come into play. I made a meet and greet trip when I had about 990 PIC to hand out resumes and shake hands. At the meet ups, I showed them:

 

- Initiative

- Motivation

- Personality

- Willingness to do more (than send an email)

- Goals for the future

- What I can bring to the table for them

- Why others would want to work alongside me

 

I got a tour of the facility at the place that ended up hiring me. I thanked them for their time and told them I enjoyed seeing the operation and meeting everyone, and that I looked forward to hearing back from them "if they think that I had a place there".

 

One week later the Chief Pilot called me and asked if I could return in 4 days for an interview. I went to the interview and walked out 2 hours later with a job.

 

I barely made the minimums

I'm not the smartest guy in the world

I'm not the greatest flyer they've ever seen

I botched several things during the oral and the flight portion of the interview

 

But I also sold them on what will make me a valuable member of the team. I explained how my employment there would be mutually beneficial. I told them verbatim, "I need this job, and you need a guy like me". That kind of confidence and personality is what actually got me the job, I believe.

In my many years of searching for work I met many a CFII who did exactly what you did, yet still never found work.

 

Sorry to be that guy who puts a negative spin on your good fortune,...but its kinda my thing.

[helonorth]

What kind of job are you doing and what are you doing it in?

[Wally]

In my many years of searching for work I met many a CFII who did exactly what you did, yet still never found work.

 

Sorry to be that guy who puts a negative spin on your good fortune,...but its kinda my thing.

 

I'm guessing you missed the salesmanship aspect of Whiteshadow's narrative.

Whatever you think you're buying when you spend money, it's not the product you're buying, it's the pitch that motivates the purchase. I know salesmen ('salespersons'?) who could sell ice to eskimoes on a floe, as the cliche goes. It's the face-to-face that makes them killer sellers. They buy the failed sales lists of other sales forces to get that face-to-face...

 

No amount of media time or direct mail has the profit potential of the skilled, personal sales relationship. How much of your junk snail/email do you read? That's your resume, spam to a busy chief pilot. It is much more difficult to ignore people and their pitches. Even if 99% of them fail, it's the 1% that make personal sales work. I didn't get every job I've ever pursued, probably not even 10% success. But I got every job I've ever had after a face-to-face pitch that was researched and specific...

Edited August 15, 2016 by Wally

[takefootoff]

Im willing to eat rice and beans for the rest of my life. The objective statement on my resume says that ill work for less. Sometimes i just wish operators and insurance companies would wise up to hiring more low timers and save themselves some money.

[r22butters]

I'm guessing you missed the salesmanship aspect of Whiteshadow's narrative.

Whatever you think you're buying when you spend money, it's not the product you're buying, it's the pitch that motivates the purchase. I know salesmen ('salespersons'?) who could sell ice to eskimoes on a floe, as the cliche goes. It's the face-to-face that makes them killer sellers. They buy the failed sales lists of other sales forces to get that face-to-face...

 

No amount of media time or direct mail has the profit potential of the skilled, personal sales relationship. How much of your junk snail/email do you read? That's your resume, spam to a busy chief pilot. It is much more difficult to ignore people and their pitches. Even if 99% of them fail, it's the 1% that make personal sales work. I didn't get every job I've ever pursued, probably not even 10% success. But I got every job I've ever had after a face-to-face pitch that was researched and specific...

So he was just a better salesman than all the other guys who tried before him, how awesome?

 

My resume used to say, "will fly for pizza" at the bottom,...sort of a half joke at the time. Not long ago a guy called me on an old resume, wanted me to give rides in a 44 for about $500/mo. and be on-call all the time,...no thanks. Funny how things change.

 

I don't think it costs insurance companies anything to demand higher time pilots, and no job is worth eating rice and beans for the rest of your life,...certainly not stuckup, two faced, heartless, commercial helicopter operators!

Edited August 15, 2016 by r22butters

[avbug]

Im willing to eat rice and beans for the rest of my life. The objective statement on my resume says that ill work for less. Sometimes i just wish operators and insurance companies would wise up to hiring more low timers and save themselves some money.

 

 

You may think you're doing the right thing right now by making a statement like that. You're not. You're spitting on the industry and lowering the bar and you're too inexperienced to know better.

 

Usually it's the pilots who advertise that they're willing to prostitute themselves who whine the loudest later when they can't get the wages that they think they deserve.

 

Don't tell employers you'll work for less. Don't tell employers you'll work for free, or pay them to work, just to get experience. You're defecating in the bed in which you must one day lay, and you're pissing on the industry. Stop.

[takefootoff]

...i was joking fellas

[r22butters]

 

This always cracked me up!

Edited August 16, 2016 by r22butters

[Whiteshadow]

What kind of job are you doing and what are you doing it in?

 

Grand Canyon Tours.

 

- H130B4

- H130T2

- AS350B2

- AS350B3E

 

This is also the reason that I kept emphasizing "minimums". This is my first experience landing a job outside of instruction, so this particular minimum cannot be negotiated as may be the case with operators who do not have another entity to satisfy when hiring new pilots.

[Whiteshadow]

So he was just a better salesman than all the other guys who tried before him, how awesome?

 

 

 

Butters, I do think I am good at selling my qualities. However, don't look at it so narrow-mindedly. The qualities I'm selling are real. It wouldn't be such a good thing if I "fooled them" into believing I would be good for them, only for them to find out soon after that I'm a dirtbag. The point behind my post was that if you have the right attitude, you should present that to them and prove to them that you will be good for their business. Nothing wrong with that at all.

[r22butters]

Butters, I do think I am good at selling my qualities. However, don't look at it so narrow-mindedly. The qualities I'm selling are real. It wouldn't be such a good thing if I "fooled them" into believing I would be good for them, only for them to find out soon after that I'm a dirtbag. The point behind my post was that if you have the right attitude, you should present that to them and prove to them that you will be good for their business. Nothing wrong with that at all.

 

The guy who did my last BFR has close to 1500hrs yet came back from Helisuccess last year with no offers and is still teaching. Nice guy, great talker (should have no trouble selling himself) and a good instructor. Hard to belive he simply doesn't have the "right attitude"?

[avbug]

In order to "sell yourself," you need an interview, first.

 

Having 1,500 hours may be impressive to you, but not to most employers. It's just scratching the surface, and usually is accompanied by precious little experience. Some instructing, perhaps, but those at 1,500 hours with a little instructing under their belt should remember that nearly every other pilot out there has the same...making it essentially worthless. It's just bare bones time and experience.

 

To get that interview, it's best to visit potential employers in person, where it's accepted, and where it's possible. Outside of that, fill out applications and send resumes. I've had times between employment in which I sent over a thousand resumes. If someone thinks they've reached the pinnacle of effort by attending helisuccess, then they're lazy and have a lot yet to learn.

 

The chance of finding employment is closely connected to the effort one is willing to put into securing it.