Is the magic number 2000 now?

[Wally]

The guy who did my last BFR has close to 1500hrs yet came back from Helisuccess last year with no offers and is still teaching. Nice guy, great talker (should have no trouble selling himself) and a good instructor. Hard to belive he simply doesn't have the "right attitude"?

Every career pilot has been "that guy" at some point. Every pilot taking an introductory flight today to become a professional will be "that guy" It's hard cheese, but what happens next is what determines if he remains "that guy" forever. Critique the interactions, identify and resolve issues, follow up with contacts, and then do it again. And again. Etc.

Personal presentations work better than anything else but it is not 100% effective. Face to face is the most expensive and the most challenging method to sell anything. Even the most successful sales call may not close instantly, it might take days, weeks or months for stars to align- the salesman who presented the best answer at that point will get the first call.

Know the industry, the company, the job, the introductory situation, and you're ten paces ahead of everybody else. If nothing else, you will know when the effort is a complete waste of time- like when you are nowhere near the minimums.

 

Offering to work for pizza pretty much tells the company what the market thinks you're worth.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Wally

[Whiteshadow]

The guy who did my last BFR has close to 1500hrs yet came back from Helisuccess last year with no offers and is still teaching. Nice guy, great talker (should have no trouble selling himself) and a good instructor. Hard to belive he simply doesn't have the "right attitude"?

 

I wasn't there, and I don't know the guy but I believe what you're saying. Unfortunately, there is still the human factor that fits into the equation as well. In the end, once any of us score some face time, there is still a person who has to "like you" in order for an introductory meeting to turn into something else. Who knows the reason that the guy never made it any further....besides the person he spoke to who must have decided that he didn't merit further contact.

 

I should also mention that I met with 6 operators on the same trip that landed me the interview. The one who hired me was the only one who showed any reciprocal interest. I presented myself in the exact same manner to all of them, with only one who was interested in further contact. Again, maybe the others just "didn't like me". Just the way it is. Press on until there is a mutual feeling of interest.

[r22butters]

This is all well and good, but you guys have to cut out the, "if you have the right attitude" bullshit! I've been hearing that for ten years now! That suggest that someone doing everything everyone else is doing, but still can't land a job is somehow afflicted by this "bad attitude", or some used to say, "sense of entitlement" whatever that was supposed to mean?

 

Then one day they finally land a job, and suddenly its, look what you can do with a little hard work, dedication, and "the right f*cking attitude"!,...like suddenly now they have it!

 

If you throw enough darts at the board, eventually one will hit the bullseye!

 

Just look at me, eventually even I found a job,...and no one would ever suggest that I, even after ten years, had the "right attitude"!

 

,...and "will fly for pizza", was just to show a sense of humour. I took it off once I realized commercial operators didn't have one!

[takefootoff]

Common butters...tell us how you really feel

[Whiteshadow]

This is all well and good, but you guys have to cut out the, "if you have the right attitude" bullshit! I've been hearing that for ten years now!

 

Don't you find it odd that you are the only one who seems to have a problem with this idea? Don't you also find it odd that you have, the worst attitude? You say you have been hearing this for 10 years, and for those same 10 years you have been bashing the industry for being unfair, or whatever it is you think is keeping you from being a happily employed helicopter pilot. Do you think that's a coincidence? Do you think it's a coincidence that those of us who seem to have positive attitudes towards it are finding work?

[r22butters]

Don't you find it odd that you are the only one who seems to have a problem with this idea? Don't you also find it odd that you have, the worst attitude? You say you have been hearing this for 10 years, and for those same 10 years you have been bashing the industry for being unfair, or whatever it is you think is keeping you from being a happily employed helicopter pilot. Do you think that's a coincidence? Do you think it's a coincidence that those of us who seem to have positive attitudes towards it are finding work?

I'm not a happily employed helicopter pilot because I spent ten years living in denial of what a commercial pilots life is really like. I always wanted to fly tours because I knew I would enjoy the flying, but I always glossed over the fact that I'd be flying with the general public, and have to be nice to them.

 

I am not a people person. I am an anti-social loner, which is perfect for being a long haul trucker, but rubbish for a tour pilot! Only now after having been an employed tour pilot do I finally accept that.

 

I don't think this industry is unfair, but when I see hundreds of pilots competing for just one open slot, and the guy who gets it believes that he was chosen because he had a better attitude than everyone else, or he actually has the qualities he's selling (like everyone else was just lying) is complete bullshit!

 

You got hired because someone there liked you, nothing more! Just as I was hired simply because someone there liked me and convinced the owner (who didn't like me) to give me a shot! It was she whom I thanked when I got there, and it was she for whom I felt bad about disappointing when I left!

 

When there's a two hour line to talk to Papillon, luck is how you get the job. You're not special, you're not better than anyone else, get over yourself!

[avbug]

 

Don't you find it odd that you are the only one who seems to have a problem with this idea? Don't you also find it odd that you have, the worst attitude? You say you have been hearing this for 10 years, and for those same 10 years you have been bashing the industry for being unfair, or whatever it is you think is keeping you from being a happily employed helicopter pilot. Do you think that's a coincidence? Do you think it's a coincidence that those of us who seem to have positive attitudes towards it are finding work?

 

 

Atititude is altitude. Quite literally.

 

If one doesn't understand how to treat a client, the duration with an employer will be short, and the wait in the unemployment line long. If one doesn't comprehend that everyone is a client, it's going to be difficult to make it as a pilot. Employers look very closely at this in a prospective pilot.

 

It's not just passengers that are the client. It's the government helicopter manager or aircraft manager. It's the secretary in the office. It's the fueler at the airport.

 

The pilot needs to understand that others in the chain look up to him (or her). The expectation is higher, somewhat in the same way that a greater expectation is placed on a doctor. A higher standard of behavior, and a higher standard of respect and cooperation between the pilot and those around him or her is crucial to survival in a job. One doesn't need to kiss posteriors, but civility, tact, and good communication with those in the employment sphere is critical to one's own survival in the business, as well as the employer.

 

The employer isn't hiring a monkey to sit in the seat and manipulate the controls. The truth is that anyone can learn those monkey skills. Judgement is critical. The ability to relate to and work with others is necessary in the field, too. Get in, sit down, strap in, shut up and hang on just doesn't cut it any more. Passengers and co-corkers and employers and others are much more comfortable with a pilot that they feel they can trust. One who's aloof and who can't get along, who can't work in the environment where the flight operations are conducted, and who doesn't strive to find ways to make the operation work in the context of what's needed by each client, doesn't belong in the field.

 

Attitude is everything. Attitude toward the aircraft, safety, aeronautical decision making the well being of the people assigned to the aircraft, who service the aircraft, who fly in the aircraft; attitude toward every aspect of the operation is observed and measured, and it's this potential attitude to which the employer looks very closely when considering a new hire. Can your attitude set you apart from the others? Absolutely, for better or for worse.

[CharyouTree]

You got hired because someone there liked you, nothing more!

 

What do you think it is that makes the person making the <interview, hiring, retention, etc Pick one> decision like you more than someone else, literally all else being equal? Because my eyes were blue? Or did I present a better attitude? Enough otherwise equal applicants, and yes... eventually it will come down to luck. Maybe you remind the chief pilot of some he hired in '08 that was a jerk, or you look like that owner's ex husband. Some other guy thinks your shirt looks stupid.

 

The good attitude is what's going to get you to the luck phase, just like having hours is a requirement.

[Wally]

I'm not a happily employed helicopter pilot because I spent ten years living in denial of what a commercial pilots life is really like. I always wanted to fly tours because I knew I would enjoy the flying, but I always glossed over the fact that I'd be flying with the general public, and have to be nice to them.

 

I am not a people person. I am an anti-social loner, which is perfect for being a long haul trucker, but rubbish for a tour pilot! Only now after having been an employed tour pilot do I finally accept that.

 

I don't think this industry is unfair, but when I see hundreds of pilots competing for just one open slot, and the guy who gets it believes that he was chosen because he had a better attitude than everyone else, or he actually has the qualities he's selling (like everyone else was just lying) is complete bullshit!

 

You got hired because someone there liked you, nothing more! Just as I was hired simply because someone there liked me and convinced the owner (who didn't like me) to give me a shot! It was she whom I thanked when I got there, and it was she for whom I felt bad about disappointing when I left!

 

When there's a two hour line to talk to Papillon, luck is how you get the job. You're not special, you're not better than anyone else, get over yourself!

If you don't want to be "a happily employed helicopter pilot", that's fine, you have standing in my eyes to express that opinion:

 

"Flying Tours in a 44 back East,...and I absolutely hated it, so I quit. Turns out I'm much happier driving a truck for a living and just renting a 22 once a month or so."

 

You tried it, you didn't like it and you quit for completely understandable reasons. Your opinion of, and experience with that operator wasn't unbelievable, lots if working pros have that T-shirt.

Life's tough and then you die. Now, "get over yourself", it would be productive if you could tell new pilots how you got that job...

 

One doesn't have to smooch behind to succeed in this field. All you have to do is respect the people you work with, communicate clearly and in a non-confrontational manner, and do the job when, where and however it needs to be done- every time. Show up prepared to work entire duty period, give 100% until the shift is over and then leave it behind. Which is one reason I don't hang out with the folks I work with. I like some of them a lot, quite a lot, actually. I detest some deeply. None of my colleagues can tell one way or the other. There's no need for them to be aware of that and many reasons not to share it.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Wally

[r22butters]

, it would be productive if you could tell new pilots how you got that job...

I made a freindly contact over facebook (at the right time) who then vouched for me.

 

I'm not trying to dump on anyone's success, its just when they make it seem like they got hired because they had the right attitude, it just rubbs me the wrong way, since I've met plenty of guys who either never found work or can't seem to move on,...and it's not because of their attitude!

 

If I hadn't always seen such long lines to talk to Papillon, and PHI, then perhaps I would believe that it was more than just luck that gets people in?

[Whiteshadow]

Butters said:

 

"If I hadn't always seen such long lines to talk to Papillon, and PHI, then perhaps I would believe that it was more than just luck that gets people in?"

 

 

So maybe it isn't only your lousy attitude that isn't getting you hired. Maybe it's what you said right here? You see a long line and say, "I have no chance". You talked yourself out of getting that job, nobody had to do anything to derail your career. You defeated yourself.

[r22butters]

Butters said:

 

"If I hadn't always seen such long lines to talk to Papillon, and PHI, then perhaps I would believe that it was more than just luck that gets people in?"

 

 

So maybe it isn't only your lousy attitude that isn't getting you hired. Maybe it's what you said right here? You see a long line and say, "I have no chance". You talked yourself out of getting that job, nobody had to do anything to derail your career. You defeated yourself.

Actually I stood in that line several times and still talked to them despite being told before that "we can't hire anyone with less than 1000hrs".

 

I got hired because I did what every other pilot does over and over again, I through a bunch of darts at the board until finally one hit the bullseye. That's pure luck!

[avbug]

When I get hired, it's usually after an interview in which I've answered questions such as "what do you know about our company." I answered them thoroughly because I researched the company before hand. I knew what they did, who their key personnel were, their history, what they flew and where. I knew what they paid. I knew the experience level of the pilots they hired, and I knew their quality of life. I took the time to ensure that my application materials, from the cover letter to the resume were custom tailored to them, addressed by name to the individual in charge of hiring. I took the time to dress up, show up. I didn't just stand in line.

 

When an employer asked if I was willing to move to get the job, my answer was yes because I already knew the employer required it, and I already had researched the cost, time, etc. When the employer said they preferred pilots with some mechanical experience, I said no problem, as I'd taken the trouble to get experienced in maintenance, show up with my A&P, and have my own tools. In other words, I was prepared. It's said that "luck" favors the prepared.

 

It's not luck. It's preparation, qualification (preparation), certification (preparation), attitude (preparation), knowledge (preparation), understanding and study (preparation), experience (preparation), and presentation (preparation).

 

Standing in line and betting on luck doesn't cut it unless you really don't care about the job and have no forethought but to gamble.

[r22butters]

Fine, I may as well admit it. This guy was based off me and represents my attitude going into an interview,...as well as evey guy who either never found work or just can't seem to move on!

 

 

Those of you with more successful careers are just more awesome and the rest of us are just lazy and entitled.

[nightsta1ker]

This is a tough industry to break into. I find that 90% of what it takes to get hired is being at the right place, at the right time, with the right stuff (whether that be hours, attitude, experience, ratings, or any other qualifications). Making sure you have that is on you, and I have never gotten a job that I didn't show up and meet the employer first. I have also had many doors shut in my face. Didn't stop me from continuing to try. I have also watched many of my peers, who I respect and admire, and consider to be better, smarter pilots than I am, fail to get hired. If I let that stop me from continuing to try, I wouldn't be where I am today. As long as you strive to be competent, you will be. As long as you continue to try to put yourself in the right place at the right time, at some point, you will be, and a door will open. Is that luck? No. Luck would be getting a cold call from an employer who happened to find a copy of your resume in the gutter somewhere and thought: "well maybe I will give this guy a try."

 

In other words: The harder you work, the luckier you get.

[CLRDHOT28]

It depends on the job, employer, insurance, etc. When I took lessons using the GI bill to learn how to fly piston helos aka R22 most of the CFI's I flew with had 400-600 hours. I started looking for a job about 18 months ago after leaving active duty and had several of the companies told me they wouldn't even look at my resume because I was xxx hours short of a requirement. Several of the company's requirments I was only about 10 hours short of PIC time and they said go get 10 hours and resubmit the resume.

 

I used a chance encounter with a FedEx pilot who used to fly in a sister squadron of my old squadron back in the 80's who's friend was a chief pilot at the local EMS helos. I called him up and he tried to get me hired, but management told him I needed 2000 hours total. The Chief Pilot said he would have gotten me hired that day, but the insurance needed 2000 hours total for EMS. Some places it is a hard number, but sometimes it isn't.

 

A couple of months later after that I interviewed and got the job wearing a fishing shirt and shorts. I was hired over several former Navy and Army guys because the employer liked my attitude, experience, and qualifications. Some of the other guys had more hours than I did, but I had a wider variety of experience and specific skills that they were looking for. A year later we are upgrading to a turbine, and I'll be teaching the more experienced pilots how to fly a turbine since they have just piston time on helos.

 

Not all the places are just about who has more hours, but what you bring to the organization with experience, skill, attitude, and work ethic.

[r22butters]

Luck would be getting a cold call from an employer who happened to find a copy of your resume in the gutter somewhere and thought: "well maybe I will give this guy a try."

The only local interview I've ever had happened just that way. The only reason I didn't get the job was that they thought I was a CFI, so well...

[r22butters]

 

A couple of months later after that I interviewed and got the job wearing a fishing shirt and shorts.

 

Dude you HAVE to go to Helisuccess dressed like that,...it would be AWESOME!

[avbug]

In other words: The harder you work, the luckier you get.

 

 

Bingo!!

[Wally]

“Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.”

― Seneca

[Little Bird]

I'll put some fuel on the luck fire and say that my first job in the US was due to my resume being on a job board and the CP at the time having had good experiences with my nationality during his military service...

All my other work has stemmed from personal relations, keeping in touch with people over as many as 10 years and persistence.

[Azhigher]

Saying someone got hired because they got lucky is silly. They got hired because they networked, and networking is working. I mean it's right there in the word.

 

Crying that someone got hired because they got lucky just screams jealousy and rationalization. They got the job over me because they got lucky, yeah that's it! Do you honestly think the CP of a company just randomly chooses a resume out of the pile and brings them in for an interview? No weeding out process at all?

 

That's silly. You're silly, Butters.

[r22butters]

 

That's silly. You're silly, Butters.

Yet it was luck that got me hired,...albeit bad luck, but luck none the less!

 

,...and I'm not silly

 

 

This is silly!

Edited August 18, 2016 by r22butters

[avbug]

A lot of people do get hired by networking, and it's a common way of moving upward, or from job to job, or finding work. It's not the only way.

 

I don't network, and never have. Moreover, I have never obtained work based on someone else, or through someone else. It's always been cold calling, application, resume, etc. I've yet to have someone hire me or offer me an interview because of a recommendation or because I dropped a name, or because the employer and I knew someone in common.

 

Networking can be a very effective tool for securing employment, but I have never used it. There are many means to finding employment; luck is the least reliable and the least effective, but perhaps for some, the only recourse.

[Spike]

There are some complete bone-head people in this business…. With crappy attitudes…… So how did they get there?

 

Having the right attitude is simple. Paying for and securing the certification to get a job is just as simple… Civi or ex-mil....

 

Not understanding how the business works is a job killer and THAT’S how the bone-heads and bad apples get in… They listen and learn about the business of flying helicopters -professionally..

 

But for whatever reason, others can’t seem to figure this out. They just keep this imaginary image in their heads of how this business works without ever realizing they’re not even close….. It’s reminiscent of youth…. That is, you have preschoolers who are eager to learn and they learn as they grow, like in flight school. As they get a little older (like a few hundred hours in the aviation world, employed or not) they stop listening because they know it all; like a teenager…. This is why the ones who falter or fail do so because they won’t listen to those who became before them…

 

In the end, if you can’t find a job in this business, you have to ask the right questions starting with yourself…… After that, ask questions to those who've been there and done that......

Edited August 18, 2016 by Spike