turbine training for $300.00 per hour

[67november]

Had to quit the curls, got too attached to it. You need a picture of a B model under your call sign, brother.

 

 

ya mean like that

[bossman]

ya mean like that

 

You got it.

[jehh]

I can't see any problem with getting a CFI job whether you have 200 hrs. in a turbine or 200 hrs. in a piston. The only problem would be in a Robinson with the special SFAR.

 

You might not see any problem, but that doesn't mean there isn't one...

 

I'm sure the Alouette is fine, and I have no doubt your brand new CFIs with 150 hours in them can teach in them just fine. The problem is, that is ALL they can teach in. No one will hire them to teach in anything else.

 

I'll ask again... How do you intend for your customers (students) to go from 150 hours of turbine time to employment? It won't be as a CFI in a piston helicopter, so what is the plan?

[bossman]

You might not see any problem, but that doesn't mean there isn't one...

 

I'm sure the Alouette is fine, and I have no doubt your brand new CFIs with 150 hours in them can teach in them just fine. The problem is, that is ALL they can teach in. No one will hire them to teach in anything else.

 

I'll ask again... How do you intend for your customers (students) to go from 150 hours of turbine time to employment? It won't be as a CFI in a piston helicopter, so what is the plan?

 

jehh,

You evidently did not read the previous answers. You can instruct in an aircraft with 5 hrs. in type. Except for the Robbie because of the SFAR. As for our CFIs they are well qualified to teach in any aircraft out there. We can do Robinson, Schweizer, Alouette, UH-1B, Sikorsky, Bell all models. and anything else you want to bring. All our CFIs have a bit more than 150 hrs. The magic 50 hour time that is referred to for type is a number set by some insurance carriers for instructors. The FAA only requires 5 hours in type to be able to instruct. Except the Robinson and it carries it's own set of regs. By the way, we have a couple of Robinson instructors, bring a Robbie to West Virginia and we'll give you a BFR.

[jehh]

jehh,

You evidently did not read the previous answers. You can instruct in an aircraft with 5 hrs. in type. Except for the Robbie because of the SFAR. As for our CFIs they are well qualified to teach in any aircraft out there. We can do Robinson, Schweizer, Alouette, UH-1B, Sikorsky, Bell all models. and anything else you want to bring. All our CFIs have a bit more than 150 hrs. The magic 50 hour time that is referred to for type is a number set by some insurance carriers for instructors. The FAA only requires 5 hours in type to be able to instruct. Except the Robinson and it carries it's own set of regs. By the way, we have a couple of Robinson instructors, bring a Robbie to West Virginia and we'll give you a BFR.

 

I did read them, and you are factually correct, the FAA only requires 5 hours of make and model. However, since insurance requires 50 hours make and model, what the FAA requires is rather beside the point. You won't find very many flight schools that run uninsured. If you know of one, let me know.

 

As I said to your instructor Matt in another thread, our concern is that you may be trying to do professional pilot training all in the turbine. There is nothing wrong with doing 10 or even 50 hours in the turbine, so long as your career track students get at least 50 hours in either a 300 or R-22.

 

Fly safe!

[flingwing206]

You can instruct in an aircraft with 5 hrs. in type. Except for the Robbie because of the SFAR. As for our CFIs they are well qualified to teach in any aircraft out there. We can do Robinson, Schweizer, Alouette, UH-1B, Sikorsky, Bell all models. and anything else you want to bring. All our CFIs have a bit more than 150 hrs. The magic 50 hour time that is referred to for type is a number set by some insurance carriers for instructors. The FAA only requires 5 hours in type to be able to instruct. Except the Robinson and it carries it's own set of regs. By the way, we have a couple of Robinson instructors, bring a Robbie to West Virginia and we'll give you a BFR.

Bossman,

 

You have a knack for, shall we say, waving the red cape in the most innocent of fashion, then wondering why people respond as they do. If I apply the FAA standard, I am "qualified" to teach in the 206, Enstrom 28/280, EC120, Schweizer 300, R22 and R44 (yes I have the SFAR for both). However, having more than 5 hours in an aircraft (or even 50 in the Robinson) does not mean you are actually qualified to teach in the aircraft, even if you are a very good CFI. You say you have R22 instructors - if they have any time teaching primary students in that aircraft, they will know that 50 hours of stick time just isn't enough - especially for a new CFI the first 100-200 hours dual given has a very steep learning curve. If you didn't experience it as a student, you will have no appreciation for how quickly that little helicopter can reach up and bite a CFI. All helicopters have their tricks (learning to power-recover in certain turbine helicopters is an art in itself), and it takes a dangerous mix of arrogance and foolishness to offer instruction in an aircraft you are not well versed in.

 

I am not critiquing your instructors - I have no idea of their backgrounds and experience. I am only responding to the message you seem to be giving here, which is that someone who trains with you (in an Alouette) will be able to safely and effectively instruct in a light piston helicopter after only 5 (or the Robinson 50) hours in the aircraft. I suspect you don't actually believe this, but it seems you are willing to let prospective students believe it. Problem is, they will, right up to the point where they try to get a job flying a Schweizer or Robinson, or a commercial job with 150 - 200 hours flight time and no experience.

 

Nobody is saying that there is anything wrong with offering flight training in an Alouette at a very reasonable rate. People offer flight training in lots of different aircraft, and as Matt pointed out in the other thread, you seem to be offering a popular product. However, there is a subtle implication that your program will somehow offer a leg up on the career track. It may well provide advantages in certain very narrow arenas, but PHI or Papillon won't care what you trained in (unless it's something exceedingly different, like a Chinook or a 2-place Helicycle!).

 

Here's what I posted in the other thread:

It seems we have some parallel (perhaps slightly congruent) topics.

 

One is the value of a low-hour CFI with all turbine time. That's a simple one, you will only find a possible job with the school that trained you. It can happen at a small school, but no guarantees, so you take a risk.

 

Now let's give that guy 50 hours in a piston trainer. Jason refers to the 50-hour requirement for teaching in type. This is common, but it is usually backed up by having much more time in similarly-sized piston aircraft. I can't speak for all schools, but I know I would not hire someone without at least 200 hours in piston trainers, and 50 PIC in type. If I was presented someone who had learned to fly and gotten all their ratings in an Alouette, then built 50 hours in an R22, frankly, I wouldn't touch them as an R22 CFI. For the Schweizer, I'd still have some concerns. I have had the privilage of training some skilled and competent military pilots into the 300CBi, and they all struggled with power/RPM management (as well as dealing with very light, non-boosted controls). If they got 50 hours of intense training in confined area, autorotation and so on, it might be OK, but that's not the usual "hour-building" menu.

 

Finally, there's the value of an all-turbine 1,000 hour CFI versus an all-piston CFI to the next employer. I've already gone over that a bit, but here's another point of view to consider. It is a common theme from all the 135 check pilots I know that the engine is not a factor in transitioning (aside from the dreaded 900-degree startup). What is key is the size and power of the respective aircraft - if someone has only flown Blackhawks, they will have difficulty with an AStar or Jet Ranger. If they have only flown Schweizers, it might take some time to get used to the speed and inertia of a 407 or A119. Nobody ever has with "piston habits" or "turbine habits" (except in startup and shutdown) - they show up with size/weight habits, and operational habits.

 

So a big ramble just to say that for the time being, given the model the majority of the industry is using, for a funds-limited, career-tracking new student, you will do better in a small piston trainer as the venue to get you to that GOM or tour job as inexpensively, wuickly, and safely as possible. However, if you have the luxury of time and money, the turbine offer on hand here could be too good to pass up!

So kudos for offering reasonably-priced training in a great, classic turbine ship, and in a wonderful environment. As you (and your CFI Matt) say, it is a wonderful opportunity for folks who are learning to fly helicopters for the fun and excitement of it, and have no particular aspirations in the professional world.

[bossman]

I did read them, and you are factually correct, the FAA only requires 5 hours of make and model. However, since insurance requires 50 hours make and model, what the FAA requires is rather beside the point. You won't find very many flight schools that run uninsured. If you know of one, let me know.

 

As I said to your instructor Matt in another thread, our concern is that you may be trying to do professional pilot training all in the turbine. There is nothing wrong with doing 10 or even 50 hours in the turbine, so long as your career track students get at least 50 hours in either a 300 or R-22.

 

Fly safe!

jehn,

As for the insurance carriers, not all of them require the 50 hours. If you have a good record and they trust you, they will insure some instructors with 20 hours in type. As long as their previous experience and amount of hours warrant it. You guys need to shop around. Do you and flyingwing206 work at the same piston flight school? You have still not convinced me that professional flight training in a turbine is a bad thing. The military does it everyday. Are they not professional enough for you?

[bossman]

Bossman,

 

You have a knack for, shall we say, waving the red cape in the most innocent of fashion, then wondering why people respond as they do. If I apply the FAA standard, I am "qualified" to teach in the 206, Enstrom 28/280, EC120, Schweizer 300, R22 and R44 (yes I have the SFAR for both). However, having more than 5 hours in an aircraft (or even 50 in the Robinson) does not mean you are actually qualified to teach in the aircraft, even if you are a very good CFI. You say you have R22 instructors - if they have any time teaching primary students in that aircraft, they will know that 50 hours of stick time just isn't enough - especially for a new CFI the first 100-200 hours dual given has a very steep learning curve. If you didn't experience it as a student, you will have no appreciation for how quickly that little helicopter can reach up and bite a CFI. All helicopters have their tricks (learning to power-recover in certain turbine helicopters is an art in itself), and it takes a dangerous mix of arrogance and foolishness to offer instruction in an aircraft you are not well versed in.

 

I am not critiquing your instructors - I have no idea of their backgrounds and experience. I am only responding to the message you seem to be giving here, which is that someone who trains with you (in an Alouette) will be able to safely and effectively instruct in a light piston helicopter after only 5 (or the Robinson 50) hours in the aircraft. I suspect you don't actually believe this, but it seems you are willing to let prospective students believe it. Problem is, they will, right up to the point where they try to get a job flying a Schweizer or Robinson, or a commercial job with 150 - 200 hours flight time and no experience.

 

Nobody is saying that there is anything wrong with offering flight training in an Alouette at a very reasonable rate. People offer flight training in lots of different aircraft, and as Matt pointed out in the other thread, you seem to be offering a popular product. However, there is a subtle implication that your program will somehow offer a leg up on the career track. It may well provide advantages in certain very narrow arenas, but PHI or Papillon won't care what you trained in (unless it's something exceedingly different, like a Chinook or a 2-place Helicycle!).

 

Here's what I posted in the other thread:So kudos for offering reasonably-priced training in a great, classic turbine ship, and in a wonderful environment. As you (and your CFI Matt) say, it is a wonderful opportunity for folks who are learning to fly helicopters for the fun and excitement of it, and have no particular aspirations in the professional world.

 

206,

Are you trying to tell potential students that they will be able to get a job with your 150-200 hours of piston time. I hope not. Everything in this industry is based on time. Whether it be in a piston or turbine. All I am saying is that our students will be just professional as yours. What if they don't want a job flying a Schweizer or Robinson? What if they do? Either way the choice is theirs. The students today are in a catch 22 situation they can't get a job without hours and nobody wants to hire them till they've got hours. They don't have the opportunity to be trained in the military like the thousands of Viet Nam era pilots were. We are all getting very close to being put out to pasture. I just hope that we can give a few new pilots an opportunity to partake of some experience and knowledge. Come fly with us.

[Guest pokey]

Speaking of ALL turbine training, anyone know how the FH1100 school is doing as far as their 1st class size? I believe it started in June?

 

Turbine time has alot to do w/what you plan on doing with it, to instruct in a 22 or 300? its basically useless, but fun to have a variety of experience & time in different ships IF one can afford it-- which is what these guys are trying to provide.

 

How much per hour in the huey? Bossman, i would love some time in that---just to be able to say "i flew a huey once"

 

IF ya ever get a Gazelle? Bossman, i'll be right there !

[Gerhardt]

I hate to see these threads take on such a combative tone. Someone else said earlier that this is a friendly community, and I agree. We come here to learn a little and maybe have a few laughs from time to time.

 

While it is blatant advertising, would it suffice to say that the turbine time would be great for:

 

1. Heavier pilots or students that are too large for an R22 or 300.

and

2. People like me with all piston time that would enjoy some turbine time.

 

 

I'm not saying a good spar isn't fun from time to time, but eventually things have to settle.

[bossman]

I hate to see these threads take on such a combative tone. Someone else said earlier that this is a friendly community, and I agree. We come here to learn a little and maybe have a few laughs from time to time.

 

While it is blatant advertising, would it suffice to say that the turbine time would be great for:

 

1. Heavier pilots or students that are too large for an R22 or 300.

and

2. People like me with all piston time that would enjoy some turbine time.

I'm not saying a good spar isn't fun from time to time, but eventually things have to settle.

Gerhardt,

I completely agree. Com fly with us.

 

 

Speaking of ALL turbine training, anyone know how the FH1100 school is doing as far as their 1st class size? I believe it started in June?

 

Turbine time has alot to do w/what you plan on doing with it, to instruct in a 22 or 300? its basically useless, but fun to have a variety of experience & time in different ships IF one can afford it-- which is what these guys are trying to provide.

 

How much per hour in the huey? Bossman, i would love some time in that---just to be able to say "i flew a huey once"

 

IF ya ever get a Gazelle? Bossman, i'll be right there !

Pokey,

You come to West Virginia during our fire season in October and November and after the crew breifing I'll let you fly in the Huey and get a little stick for free. As for the Gazelle, we are seriously looking. Come fly with us.

[joker]

"Come fly with us" is getting pretty repetitive!

[Guest pokey]

Pokey,

You come to West Virginia during our fire season in October and November and after the crew breifing I'll let you fly in the Huey and get a little stick for free. As for the Gazelle, we are seriously looking. Come fly with us.

 

H O L Y C O W !!!

 

You can bet on it Bossman !! i'll bring lunch ! Thanks

 

 

"Come fly with us" is getting pretty repetitive!

 

 

It may be the case Joker, but? I'm gonna fly a huey !!! YAY !!!

[bossman]

"Come fly with us" is getting pretty repetitive!

joker,

How about "Let's fly helicopters"? Either one makes us happy.

[joker]

Pokey,

 

Good for you....it was a generous offer!

 

Bossman,

 

Let's fly Helicopters is much better!

 

'Come fly with us' was starting to sound a little 'desparate'. A sign that maybe this thread has run its course!'

 

Joker

[bossman]

Pokey,

 

Good for you....it was a generous offer!

 

Bossman,

 

Let's fly Helicopters is much better!

 

'Come fly with us' was starting to sound a little 'desparate'. A sign that maybe this thread has run its course!'

 

Joker

Joker,

I hate to admit it, but you are probably right.

[Sebas]

Bossman,

 

Sounds like you have 'toned down' your offer a little now, its become just another way to get your training.

You are offering a great price for turbine training but what is the advantage over training in a piston.

 

If you consider the total cost for CFI I don't see where the advantage is.

150hrs in a Robbie at approx $240 is $36000.

150hrs in your turbine at $300 is $45000

For that $9000 difference I could get a turbine transition and have change.

 

Can your students solo in this aircraft?

 

You were looking for feedback, well thats mine.

Good luck

 

 

P.S. If I show up and claim to be Pokey, do I get Huey time too!!

[Guest pokey]

P.S. If I show up and claim to be Pokey, do I get Huey time too!!

 

 

hmmmm,,,, A POKEY IMPOSTER?!!! Y I K E S ! ! ! !

[joker]

"I'm Pokey!"

"No, I'm Pokey."

"No, I'm Pokey and so is my wife!"

[bossman]

Bossman,

 

Sounds like you have 'toned down' your offer a little now, its become just another way to get your training.

You are offering a great price for turbine training but what is the advantage over training in a piston.

 

If you consider the total cost for CFI I don't see where the advantage is.

150hrs in a Robbie at approx $240 is $36000.

150hrs in your turbine at $300 is $45000

For that $9000 difference I could get a turbine transition and have change.

 

Can your students solo in this aircraft?

 

You were looking for feedback, well thats mine.

Good luck

P.S. If I show up and claim to be Pokey, do I get Huey time too!!

Sebas,

You speak the truth. It's all in what a person wants for his or her dollar. Yes they can and do solo. As a matter of fact we've found that the solo comes a little faster. They can also come back and rent the helicopters after they get their rating. You don't have to claim to be Pokey. We let people fly as crew in the Huey whenever we can. If she's flying the day you show up you can crawl in.

 

 

hmmmm,,,, A POKEY IMPOSTER?!!! Y I K E S ! ! ! !

Come on down.

 

"I'm Pokey!"

"No, I'm Pokey."

"No, I'm Pokey and so is my wife!"

Come on down.

[Guest pokey]

thinks bossman gonna need a whole fleet of hueys IF all these pokey imposters show up on same day

 

 

ok ok ,,, i'll buy an hour in the Allouette while i wait---OR? maybe the Gazelle will be there then?! --- You'll know me ( the real pokey) Bossman, i be the pokey w/ the 3 hundred $ bills

[Heli-Ops]

I would like some clarification on this "real world flying" that is being offered.

 

Having visited operators all over the world I would class "real world flying" as follows:

 

Ag Work

Longlining

Fire Fighting

Corporate & VIP

etc etc etc

 

Just wondering where your training fits into the big scheme of things and how does it actually prepare a student for getting into real world operations.

[Goldy]

Bossman- wow these guys can be brutal !!

 

 

I know a couple pilots that love the Alouette...also I think there is still a nice one for sale in the Los Angeles area if you are looking for another one...

 

Goldy

[bossman]

I would like some clarification on this "real world flying" that is being offered.

 

Having visited operators all over the world I would class "real world flying" as follows:

 

Ag Work

Longlining

Fire Fighting

Corporate & VIP

etc etc etc

 

Just wondering where your training fits into the big scheme of things and how does it actually prepare a student for getting into real world operations.

All the above. We do everything that you mentioned. Have you been reading our resume?

 

 

Bossman- wow these guys can be brutal !!

I know a couple pilots that love the Alouette...also I think there is still a nice one for sale in the Los Angeles area if you are looking for another one...

 

Goldy

Goldy,

There are a couple on barnstormers in restricted catagory that we are looking at. We'll use those for the pipeline and commercial stuff and save the standard cat. ones for the training. We love them, too. They have proven to be tough reliable ships.

[Goldy]

All the above. We do everything that you mentioned. Have you been reading our resume?

Goldy,

There are a couple on barnstormers in restricted catagory that we are looking at. We'll use those for the pipeline and commercial stuff and save the standard cat. ones for the training. We love them, too. They have proven to be tough reliable ships.

 

 

Here's a link to Mark's site. I think this one is still for sale, I saw it land at Whiteman a few weeks ago...some interesting facts as well. http://www.alouette3.com/alouette_3_helicopter_for_sale.htm