chasing my dream -please help

[67november]

emm, you're going the wrong way in your thinking. save your money and take some lessons, you can buy blocks of time 5, 10 20 hours and so on. find an airfield with the flight school and "git'er done" you don't need your parents ok to try some short term training just the nerve to say "don't question, just come out and watch and learn"

[dlo22]

emm,

 

well the pyramid scheme just isn't all that true and doesn't work. know why , because it just doesnt'. look on this site, just helicopters. pprune and so on and you will find many schools that are hurting for cfi's. i cant tell you exactly why the pyramid doesn't work but it doesn't. when you become a cfi, you will train all sorts of pilots. all pilots are not going to be cfi's and need two hundred hours. some will need a few hours a year to stay current. some will want just their private, just thier instrament, just thier commercial and so on. many will start with you and then leave and go somewhere else to train. some will come to you in the middle of their training to learn. you might pick up many ferrying jobs. private jobs, frost control, ag work. many many tour rides while working as a cfi. you will always have the demo flights to do. then you might be able to scout for the sheriffs dept. you might give people rides to a far away work place. their are so many odd options that come up, soon as you get all of your ratings. when you become a cfi, and you need to get 1,000 hours. this does not mean that you will only train four people, who will get 200 hours each. this means you will probably have closer to 100 people in the helicopter while you are building your time. so when you become a cfi, you will have many other options some of the time. when football season comes around. hey your local highschool might want a banner to be flown, when the airshows come through town, you will be flying tours. when its bobbies 16 birthday, you will be giving him a one hour lesson or tour. so their are many demands out their for cfi's and its just not taking five or ten students and training them to become a cfi like yourself. you would be supprised at how many 40-60 year old students will come to you to satisfy their desire to just manipulate the controls. plus how many airplane pilots will want to add a rotor wing license to their bag........ hours may come slow or fast, depending on who you get a job with. sure the fastest way would probably be, go down to hai in florida, and go through their training program and then hire on with them and fly everday for 4-6 hours a day or what not....... bottom line is thier will always be many opennings for new cfi's, you may have to look and you may have to travel..

 

since money aint an issue for you, which is nice, first off, go to your local flight school, since you always have had this itch, and start flying, take a few lessons, or even get your ppl and make sure this is what you want to do. convince your parents with showing them all of these threads and job offers for cfi's.... show them the pay scale of a newly hired pilot in the GOM with 1,000 to 1500 hours. starting is about 48 k a year. working 7 on and 7 off. thats not too shabby for a young, single girl with no huge commitments..... I always had this desire to scuba dive, i just knew I wanted to get my license, maybe even teach students, maybe even become an underwater photographer or welder. well wouldn't you know, I went to get my license and start diving, it wasn't as cool as I though, my ears were harder than normal to equalize, i felt very tired and almost drunk after doing it for an hour or two. the water burned my eyes and the wet suit chaffed my body. after I was done with my week long course. I wasn't that interested, nor did I want to do this a job... I don't consider this giving up on my dream or whatever, but I really wasn't that set on it after all. I wanted to be a pilot, so i started taking plane lessons, fun at first but became boring after awhile, took a heli lesson or two, and I never wanted to step foot in an airplane again....

 

your doing your homework, you have the means to do it, convince your parents with letters, taking to the local cfi, looking a jobs and pay scales all over the internet.. try www.brian.hudson.home.mchsi.com they list a few examples of pilot pay and the many different things. Read the articles on this web site, under articles. let your dad read this thread, so he knows the pyramid does not work like he thinks it does. let your dad talk to the local medical transport helicopter pilots, ask how they like their jobs and about how much they make....... Most of all, have your dad and you, ask many, many profesional helicopter pilots if they like what they are doing, do they enjoy going to work everday, would they trade it for a desk job that pays a little more money?????? You can do this if you want to ...... now that we prettty much solved the pyramid question, ask your dad what other concerns he has about you becoming a helicopter pilot, make a list and post it...... Im sure we could shoot a few holes in it, but the truth is , yes it is very expensive and is more risky than going to college, yes you will have to pay your dues, you will have to work for low pay and crappy hours and days for a few years, yes you will probably have to relocate to where the jobs are. but paying your dues is nothing like going to medical school, then working for free for three to five years. well not free but for 37,000 a year, working atleast 60 hours a week and not leaving the hospital for days at a time. how about law suits and taking call. which doctors have to do quite a bit. how about comming to the hospital at three in the morning atleast once a week to make sure your patient isn't dying on you. how about 200,000 dollars in debt, without interest before you get out of med school.... how about the price of going to a major uc college for just one year. about the same as becomeing a helicopter pilot. and what can you get done in colllege for just one year.... try comparing those two..... but im sure your dad would not have a problem with you going to med school, paying out the butt and possibly being very , very unhappy for the rest of your life....

[emm]

I always had this desire to scuba dive, i just knew I wanted to get my license, maybe even teach students, maybe even become an underwater photographer or welder. well wouldn't you know, I went to get my license and start diving, it wasn't as cool as I though, my ears were harder than normal to equalize, i felt very tired and almost drunk after doing it for an hour or two. the water burned my eyes and the wet suit chaffed my body. after I was done with my week long course. I wasn't that interested, nor did I want to do this a job... I don't consider this giving up on my dream or whatever, but I really wasn't that set on it after all. I wanted to be a pilot, so i started taking plane lessons, fun at first but became boring after awhile, took a heli lesson or two, and I never wanted to step foot in an airplane again....

 

Sounds like you've had a bad experiance with scuba diving. I happen to love the sport.

This is me in Cozumel last year in the first week of July. Ridiculous shot, but just look at all that coral and the fish.

 

well the pyramid scheme just isn't all that true and doesn't work. know why , because it just doesnt'.

 

Not really much of an answer nor the one my dads looking for.

 

Now my dad wrote another email to me asking about the pyramid scheme pretty much summarizing it up as this... This is much more simply put.

If they don't complete it, why not? Is it because it costs too much. We can handle that. If it's because they just weren't dedicated to it in the first place, I don;t think that's you. If it's because they come to the realization that it's too difficult to land that CFI job or they'll live in eternal poverty, that's a problem.

 

Anyone have statistics on the drop out rate of students? Or how many students only make it to PPL, CPL, etc..

[fry]

Now my dad wrote another email to me asking about the pyramid scheme pretty much summarizing it up as this... This is much more simply put...

 

If they don't complete it, why not? Is it because it costs too much. We can handle that. If it's because they just weren't dedicated to it in the first place, I don;t think that's you. If it's because they come to the realization that it's too difficult to land that CFI job or they'll live in eternal poverty, that's a problem.

 

Generally they drop out because they can't get the flying time they need to progress. First, the school markets to "the working adult"...and a lot of them, thirty, forty or fifty to each new class. They target these folks because they can qualify for the financing because, well, they are "working". But because they are working they can only fly on weekends. So when there are ten, twelve or fifteen students per aircraft and they all want to fly on the weekend...get the picture?

 

Your dad has basically summarized the issues. If someone is going to spend $70k on a vocational ed training program he (she) needs to realize that if he does not go all the way to earning a paycheck as a pilot (1,000 hours...not just as a CFI, that's just the apprenticeship) then he has spent $150k (loan plus interest) to be a recreational pilot.

 

Back to your dad's points, most of the folks signing up with these student pilot factories bought a sales pitch without looking into it any further than the salesperson's BS (e.g., retiring VN pilots, more aircraft than there are pilots, lots of work rebuilding the gulf...yada, yada, yada) and the easy money financing. These folks will generally have invested about a third of their loan proceeds by the time they realize that they are buying the first 200 hours but they will have to get the next 800 hours on their own and that it will take awhile and the pay during that period is next to nothing. "Working adults" can't pay a mortgage and feed kids on what a CFI can bring home.

 

Once someone gets to that magic 1,000 hours it's not exactly "eternal poverty" but it ain't all that great either. Check out this site:

 

http://brian.hudson.home.mchsi.com/helopay...cales/index.htm

 

Starting pay in the mid-fifties, at best, and in ten years getting into the seventies. But only if he stays with the same company. Go to another company and, even if he has 6,000 hours, he starts over again because the industry is largely a seniority system. And despite what the school salespeople and CFIs say, the market for helo pilots is a boom and bust industry and it is not growing. The current growth is a function of the boom in the oil industry and EMS companies willing to operate at a loss to try to put their competition out of business (oh, and of course new CFIs earning next to nothing). Neither of these conditions will persist long term. The helo business will go back to the norm...use a helicopter only when nothing else will do because they are so damned expensive to operate and customers won't pay for it.

 

Hope that helps.

 

PS; Cozemel is for sissies, dive Galapagos.

[emm]

Hope that helps.

 

PS; Cozemel is for sissies, dive Galapagos.

 

Thanks Fry, it does help, and I guess I'll have to try Galapagos next time then. We were thinking about Hawaii this April though.

[joker]

Horay! We get to talk about both of my passions all in the one thread!

 

Diving:

 

DLO, I'm sorry you didin't get hooked on the diving thing. I love diving to the extent that I did take it to an advanced level. Beyond recreational instructor and into the tech world. Now 300 feet of water above you...that's diving.

 

I decided that I didn't want to go into diving for a full-time career for fear of losing interest. So now I instruct purely on a freelance basis, and dive recreationally.

 

Interestingly, in diving there are a great many people who decide its not for them, or don't see it through, at various stages of their diving experience. I know of a great many instructors who did it for a year and then went into something completely different. Many of them are doing no diving at all!

 

The point is though..they tried. If they hadn't tried, they would be just like any other person in this world.

 

EMM,

 

How do you find the SeaQuest Diva LX?

 

Is that your gear? How much diving have you done? You look pretty comfortable under the water there.

 

Just a suggestion. I see your SPG hanging down. You could tuck this into the chest strap...that keeps it out the way and off the corals. If it is your gear, I would get a dog-clip (6 below), and attach it to your SPG console. Then you could clip that to the front of your jacket on the right hand shoulder D-ring. Perfect place, all tidy and clean!

 

Also, if I may, I would warn against the carribina holding your flashlight! In the tech world we call these 'suicide clips' as they could actually snag a line (or gear) when you least want it to. Imagine it cliping onto your alternate when you are squeezing through a swimthrough. Your buddy has a problem and....

 

 

OK, a little picky I know, but I'm just trying to hijack the thread for a little bit, before we get onto the nitty-gritty of whether you should go into flying or not!

 

So what has all this got to do with flying?

 

Nothing really, other than I look at myself as an example of why you should absolutely go for it.

 

The bottom line is this. If you don't try, you won't know!

 

That's what motivated me to make a leap from the education world to the aviation industry late in life.

 

However, I am not saying that you should just 'jump in'. As you will see from your other thread, many people drop out due to lack of funds. I believe that most drop out due to lack of attitude.

 

What I mean is this: many enter onto the long road of flight training without really knowing why they want it. Some are just looking for something else to do (its like they picked it out of a hat) and are not really dedicated to succeding. Others might have come into a great deal of money (VA / inheritance) and simply are looking for something to spend it on. Occasionally, I think some take flight training due to pressure from others. It might be their peers, or it might be family.

 

For whatever the reason, I see a lot of people who just don't seem dedicated to get through it. It is attitude which will determine whether someone will get through or not. (OK, I admit, there are some who just don't have the physical coordination or mental capacity to be pilots. YES, some people should not be in the air! Others actually really do get a bad run of luck.)

 

Money, time, age, job availability, and all those other reasons which people cite are just covers. Some of these people are destined to be failures at everything they try.

 

Well, only an individual (you) will know whether he or she has the right attitude or not. This is what you should ask yourself. This is what your Dad should be asking. That's difficult though. Sometimes only over time will you learn enough about yourself to know the answer. It takes experience to learn about yourself!

 

What are you like in other aspects of life?

 

Jumps right in?

Plans and prepares the dive, and plans to dive the plan, but is prepared to make in-water updates, if necessary?

Rigidly sticks to the plan?

 

Being at either end of the spectra is dangerous. You should be somewhere in the middle as you think of the long and ardous road that is flight training.

 

When faced with hard times do you quit or continue? Can you judge when continuing is futile and it is time to abort? So many have died quitting when they might have survived, yet so many have died pressing on.

 

These are the questions which will determine if you have the attitude to start flight training. These will tell you if you're going to go all the way, or drop out.

 

If you believe you have what it takes, then go and convince your Dad that.

 

Again though, if you eventually decide (between you) that you are going ahead with the flight training, don't just jump in.

 

Do your research on schools (as you are doing). Get your head in the books and do all those other things to get ahead of the game. By your participation in this forum, I have no doubt that you will do all that.

 

Personally think that you have time on your side. Don't rush to get there. Ensure you have the funding to see it through, or give yourself the time to see it through to the end. Too many people don't give themselves enough time and so are disappointed when they aren't flying multi engined twins within 2 years. (By the way, you will move on from wanting to simply being a tour pilot in Vagas!)

 

I would see 'initial-thoughts-to-well-paying-heli-job' as a 5-10 year plan. So maybe, in the first few years you could be establishing yourself (or training) in a another career, saving the money, gaining confidence and experience in life...but all with the grandmaster plan for the second 5-years driving you on. For much of the second 5 years things still won't seem that rosey. You will be living on a shoestring. You will be constantly told you are not good enough, or don't have the flight experience yet. Over time though, your salary will grow, as will your experience. All of a sudden, you will realise that you are where you want to be. With that combination of money, cash and experience backing you, I am certain you will find success. Having a second career to 'fall back on' will pump your confidence.

 

And on that word 'success' I leave you with a quote I learnt when doing deep wreck penetration training.

 

"Believe you can, believe you can't. Either way, you're probably right."

 

Enough rambling!

 

Joker

Edited April 6, 2007 by joker

[shuvelhead]

Emm,

 

The truth is that women in this industry have it made. And if that's your pic you shouldn't have any problem unless you're just plain stupid. The men in this industy will bend over backwards to help you out if you charm the right ones. It sound biased but it's the absolute truth. Being a woman opens alot of doors so you're half way there. Study hard and put in your time and you'll acomplish your dream. And one word of advice, don't pay for all your training up front. Pay as you go just in case you try it and don't like it.

[ADRidge]

Agreed. I don't think guys posting help threads get as many responses so quickly.

[emm]

Agreed. I don't think guys posting help threads get as many responses so quickly.

 

that honestly made me laugh

 

 

Joker:

 

I love my Diva LX bcd, except for a couple things. I love how comfortable it is and the integrated weight belt and pockets in teh back for weights + the fact that my back up regulater is very easy to reach since its attached directly. What i dont like are teh pockets (those are always hard to fiddle with under water anyway, and teh spots i have to clip things. There really isn't much to clip onto, and the things there are to clip onto stick way out. You're absolutely right though about my SPG hanging down, I haven't found an effective method so far of holding that because i dont like the spots where my clips can clip on, and my pockets can't hold it of course. My clips are cheap, I'll give the dog clip a shot. And yes, this is all my gear including the camera. Only thing thats not mine are the weights and tank. And i know exactly what you mean by the flash light snagging, but where would you suggest placing it?

 

kind of on a side note --- I heard a lot of pilots are scuba divers.... anyone know if thats true?

 

thanks everyone. your answers are all very much appreciated.

 

cheers!

-emm

[zcat]

emm,

The school I'm attending has a woman CFII. If you'd like her perspective, I can talk to her and see if she'd be willing to talk to you and your dad. PM me if you're interested.

 

z

[joker]

Although none of these is me(!), these show how I route my gague and reserve light. I know that you are not doing wrecks or caves, but the idea to keep everything clean and streamlined (started by the cave diving community then adopted by wreck divers, and now filtering down to recreational divers), is a good one. Even when I'm on a recreational dive, my gear philosophy is the same. Minimalist and streamlined.

 

That's why I like your alternate inflator regulator. It cuts down the number of hoses coming out of your tank. (Is that a Tusa Duo?). Same with the integrated weight belt, which is cleaner. For recreational diving both these systems are a good way, to reduce clutter. For tech diving I wouldn't use them though.

 

If I am diving shop-gear and there is no good place for the gague console, I either tuck it into the waist strap of the bcd in front of my chest, or simply wedge it between my bum and tank.

 

 

 

 

OK, enough of the momentary thread hijack!!!! I'll let you get back to your stuff. (It was fun though!)

 

Joker

Edited April 6, 2007 by joker

[emm]

It's not a tusa duo. I honestly don't remember what it is and don't really feel like going downstairs right now to check it out since i'm sick at the moment. I'll get back to you on that one. Do you take any photos while diving?

 

 

cheers!

-emm

[joker]

When I started diving I was taking photos and filming. My buddy was a marine biologist and I would assist him on his research dives. That's how I got into it.

 

Although I can teach the 'Underwater Photographer' speciality, I don't do much myself!

 

Joker

[sticktime]

If you have some one inside you will be ok. if not, Well there is more cfii's that dont work than do. Just do the math one more time. It's not hard to see.

[helo08]

emm,

 

I think I'm a bit younger than you, but I started my flight training in October of 2005. I paid for the initial almost 30 hours of flight time out of my own pocket more or less because I couldn't get a loan at 16. When I started my flight training I had less experience in the helicopter than from the sounds of it you had. I couldn't think of anything else I would rather be doing or any better people to be around than pilots.

 

PM me if you have any other questions, I'll see if I can help.

 

Helo08

[Wally]

EMM,

Lots of good replies to your post, so I may not be adding anything useful. But that never stopped me before...

 

If you really and truly want to be a professional helicopter pilot, do it. Nobody can stop you. This is a GREAT time to be starting in the field. If this is your dream, you'll be glad you've done so, no matter how far you get.

 

Now for the flip side: You have to want it badly enough to just DO it! If you're asking somebody else to pay for it, they have the right to refuse because of whatever excuse they select, or no reason whatsoever. The same holds true for financing the training. If little things like that are going to stop you, you wouldn't have made it anyway- the road to the commercial certificate and/or CFI is the easy part- you're buying that time. The hard part is finding the next seat, and the next, for years and a thousand(s) and the background you need for the position you'll take long-term. You'll be asking a lot of favors from a lot of people, and you'll hear "no" until you're sick.

I know exactly ONE pro who bought her first thousand hours, and she wasn't born rich. The rest of us traded years of their lives eating ramen, or being deployed, or whatever- building time.

 

Live your life.

Edited April 12, 2007 by Wally

[Sunny1]

Emm... honestly, reading all your posts about how money was no issue and your parents could write a check tomorrow and you'd be on your way made me feel to cry because I think you are so lucky!

 

I have 14.3 hrs of rotor time and 22.1 fixed wing, I've grown up around pilots and nearly all of my uncles are either in the fixed wing industry or helo... I've wanted to be a pilot from as far back as I can remember! But I can't and the only reason is because I flat out do not have anywhere near close to the money to finish my training! The day I had to stop flying was one of the hardest things I've ever gone through! I've explored all my "options" for years now and honestly, short of winning a lotto, I have none.

 

I'm a single mother and I'm struggling just to make ends meet, so it really breaks my heart that you have this opportunity to study whatever you want to and you're letting your parents get in the way of that! As long as it makes you happy Emm then thats what you should do!!! Their opinions are irrelevant in the grand scheme that is your life and the only thing that should matter to them is whether or not you're happy, not how much money you will be making! My dad worked hard everyday of his life and he told me once that it never ever felt like work to him because he did what he loved to do.

 

Please, for the people who can't do it, don't let your parents squash your dream! I know this sounds a little over dramatic but its just that I would hate for you not to go threw with it and regret it!

 

Flying is amazing! Every single aspect of it! Humans were not meant to fly and the fact that we're up there is amazing in itself so why wouldn't you be floored by the prospect of getting to fly yourself!

 

Don't listen to the people who are telling you you might just have an itch you just need to scratch... if you're anything like me and about nine tenths of the people in here that itch will never be satisfied!

 

Tell your parents point blank, screw the pyramid bulls***, this is what I want to do, its going to make me so happy! Are you going to let them control your whole life? Will they choose your husband for you, your kids names? You have to take the controls some where right, start with flying!

 

And keep me posted! Best of luck to you!

[CYGNUS I]

EMM

 

I am 33 now and am finally going to start flying in about a month or so. I've had this dream since I was 5. I kind of lost it for a while due to lack of belief in myself and life choices bla bla bla. So I just started working in a trade and felt like I was locked into that. So I've been doing that for 15 years now and I loath going to work every day, it is no longer acceptable to me. Along the way I did buy a house refinanced put alot of money back into it and have since sold the house. I walked away with $100,000 in my pocket and now its time to fly for the rest of my life. I only wish I could of started a long time ago. For me Its all or nothing. I can't see just getting my private first and then seeing how I like it, I already know I love it and want nothing more than to FLY! Also that is a hell of alot of money to spend for not being able to fly for fun. I make decent money doing what I do, but there's no way I could fly helicopters recreationally I mean come on. If your going to do it find a way to convince your parents or work your a** off. Either way if you know you want it, you know you want it and nothing else will ever be good enough in the long run. Only you can make your life choices and if someone else keeps you from doing what you want, you will only end up resenting them for the rest of their lives. Don't let anyone control you! I understand your young and the money comes from your parents, but if they won't give it to you then you have to do it yourself. It may not happen right away which I know is hard, but what you are is what you believe. I personally am a succesful helicopter pilot, I just don't know how to fly yet!! Sorry I can't give you stats on what your're looking for, but that is my 2 cents. JUST FLY!!

 

Chuck

[Daniel]

the military scares me

 

--- aside from that ^... does anyone know where I could find statistics on the amount of students that drop out from flight school, or the amount that only make it to their PPL, or CPL, etc..?

 

The pyramid scheme your dad is worried about would be absolutely true if there were no jobs available to new pilots other than being a CFI. I don't think this is the case though.

 

I'd second what other people have said. Don't pay it all up front. Take some classes first. See how it goes. Maybe get your private license first just to demonstrate to your parents that you've got gumption. Don't listen to Fry *too* much

[emm]

Thanks again everyone. Any one have an idea of how many students a CFI usually ends up having on their way to getting 1000 hours? If you were to follow the theory (the pyramid scheme) it'd be around 4 students, but from what I've heard, that's not the case.

 

Cheers!

-emm

[500pilot]

Most Instructors usually have 4-5 students at a time. These students finish up to certain stages and then move on and you then get another. Also, you dont just do teaching. You do stuff like photo flights, frost patrol and whatever else you need to do to build time. Also it seems right now that some people are getting the turbine jobs with around 800 hrs or so.

[emm]

Someone once told me up to 15 students. It's possible right? But I assume not all at once.

[zcat]

Someone once told me up to 15 students. It's possible right? But I assume not all at once.

 

To get 1000 hrs, you'll need ~800 hrs beyond commercial. You'd need 4 students going to commercial (~200hrs ea); 20 going to private (~40hrs ea); or some number in between. 15 sounds reasonable. That works out to ~53 hrs. per pilot, which would account for some going to commercial, some private and some stopping before that. And no, I don't think it's humanly possible to take on 15 students at once and do a quality job,

 

One of the instructors at my school seems to have a GOM job lined up when he hits the 500hr mark.

 

z

Edited April 13, 2007 by zcat

[zemogman]

emm...

 

What's plan B for you???

 

I have some advice...

 

If you don't control the money that will get you trained (your parents do) then money IS an issue you need to consider. Could it be that your parents will help you out once they see your desire and commitment by going for it on your own. Not in rebellion of course... (parents don't like that)...I mean by having a mature conversation with them about it (no fighting) and then get started...get a job...get 2 jobs...get a loan (that YOU can afford) start to "chase" your dream somehow.

 

Parents...in their love for their teenagers...can "write-off" legitimate pursuits and desires as a "phase" because that is common in teenagers(no offense). Show them that this is not a phase...Show yourself that it's not a "fleeting" thought. Do something tangible...with consistency...in your pursuit of your piloting career. Show your commitment. I believe most parents on this site will agree...

 

It's amazing what can happen when you take a step of faith...

Edited April 13, 2007 by zemogman

[67november]

emm, you're going the wrong way in your thinking. save your money and take some lessons, you can buy blocks of time 5, 10 20 hours and so on. find an airfield with the flight school and "git'er done" you don't need your parents ok to try some short term training just the nerve to say "don't question, just come out and watch and learn"

 

 

Just reposting my previous comments as others are saying.

 

be your own person, this industry is a passion, not a whim of thought.