chasing my dream -please help

[emm]

Hello everyone,

 

To start off.. sorry if this is a bit long but you can skip through it..the main stuff is in bold or italicized. My name is Emily and I’ve been reading through a lot of topics in these forums searching for answers, just like most everyone else. I do have a problem, one that’s common with a lot but I haven’t found the answer I’m looking for yet. Just like most, I’d like to become a helicopter pilot but my parents don’t approve. I’m 18 and just graduated last year and have been working on convincing them for about a year but haven’t quite gotten there yet but I think I’m getting closer.

 

My main problem really though is, my dad isn’t for or against me becoming a pilot, but he wants me to prove to him that it’s a worth while career and to do so he wants me to talk to as many pilots as I can. Sounds simple right? Well I’ve contacted quite a few schools, but my dads concern with those pilots is that these pilots are successful and just have a vested interest in me attending the school. Every school I’ve talked to has painted a pretty nice picture of my chances of finding a job as a pilot but my parents still have their reservations. What I need to do is talk to pilots, both optimistic and pessimistic, about the ups and downs of the field.

 

I have a few questions to start with. It’d be much appreciated to get most of my questions answered if not all and to get as many replies as I can.

 

If you could enlighten me on any of these topics, I'd very much appreciate it.

 

The first topic and pretty much one of the main topics is what my dad calls the "pyramid scheme".

Here is the problem I see with getting the 1000 hours flight time needed to

qualify for a commercial pilot's job. I'll use the example of a person

wanting to become a tour pilot:

 

1. In getting your commercial license you'll naturally accumulate about 200

hour's flight time. Each of the 200 hours is in the company of a CFI who

also gets an hour of flight time.

 

2. But holding a commercial certification alone isn't enough to get you

that tour guide job. You need at least 1000 hours for that and pretty much

any other commercial job. So you need to get the 1000 hours by becoming a

CFI yourself, training other students, and accumulating the other 800 hours

to go on to work an exciting career over the Grand Canyon. Of course you

need to train four other students (200 hours each) to do so.

 

3. Now that those four students have their fresh certifications and their

own dreams of becoming a tour guide, so they're also are looking for CFI

jobs and four students each to train.

 

4. In summary, you need four students to get your 1000 hours. Those four

students themselves each need 4 students (a total of 16 students) to get

their 1000 hours. Those 16 students need a total of 64 more students to get

theirs. Those 64 students need 256 students to train and so on and so on

until everyone in the world is a qualified tour guide, a CFI looking to get

their own 1000 hours, or a recent graduate student looking for a CFI job

with no more students to train.

 

I can think of how this might work out:

 

a. For every student who successfully goes on to be a tour guide, four

other students get certified (achieving 200 hours each), then do not

continue on the career path to becoming a tour guide for whatever reason.

Why not? Are the job prospects that bad?

 

b. Four of five students who successfully finish the initial training just

buy their own hours to get the experience. Unfortunately this is pretty

expensive - 800 hours times $200 per hour equals $160,000. I doubt that

there are very many that can afford this route.

 

c. There are an awful lot of students that only want to get their private

pilot's license. They don't need the get the other the other 800 hours.

The trouble is that getting a private pilot's license requires a lot less

hours so, for example, if they only need 100 hours flight time to get their

private certification there'd have to be 8 private pilot trainees for every

CFI. I doubt that is the case. How many people can afford to fly

helicopters at $200 per hour for fun?

 

d. There must be a certain percentage of commercial pilot students who

flunk out. Suppose they average 100 hours before flunking out. That would

mean 8 our of 10 students (a failure rate of 80%) would have to flunk out.

For the school is that hard do you think you will be in the 80th percentile

in your helicopter school class?

 

e. There could be a whole ****load of ex-military pilots who have enough

hours but need civilian training to qualify as a commercial pilot. However

that's not the case based on the comments of most of your emailers who keep

saying that there really aren't an extraordinary number of ex-military

pilots in the business.

 

You know what a pyramid scheme is don't you? This looks like a pyramid

scheme unless four of every five students finish their school but never get

CFI jobs.

 

(sorry if that was a bit long...)

Next topic is about job availability. From what I gather, it seems like there are plenty of jobs available (correct me if I'm wrong) but I'd just like to know, is this job availability consistent across the country (the US)? I'm from New Jersey and one of my moms concerns is that I wont be able to live near home. As I understand it... I may not get a job near by right away but as I gain more hours, I'm assuming that'll change. I'd also like to know in general if there is a good amount of jobs in the Northeast (not just CFI jobs) and also the availability of jobs in Canada.

 

This on is a common question but I'm throwing it in anyway. My mom is all about making enough money to survive because she comes from a poor country. She's concerned that I wont be able to make enough money to have a house, or family and that all my kids will starve to death. (she's very pessimistic about this topic.. in fact she said I'd be a failure if I became a pilot). I'd just like to at least get an idea about what each field makes in the helicopter industry. As of right now, I'm personally shooting for medivac.

Not my biggest concern right now, but the two schools I'm looking at right now are Vortex Helicopters and Hillsboro Aviation. I hear they're both good schools. If anyone really has anything to say about them, I'd like to hear it.

 

I guess I'll leave it at that for now.. I still have more questions, but for now they can wait.

You can contact me here, or by email, pm or bye some instant messenger (i have aim, msn, googletalk, skype and xfire) or if you'd like to chat on the phone preferably instead of typing out a whole thing like I did (send me an email), anything would help.

 

Thanks so much everyone,

-emm

[Bristol]

Follow your dream, don't let anyone tell you different.

Your father has a good point, but if you train and stay the course, you will be ok.

The pyramid scheme your father speaks of is hogwash. What about people that train nurses, doctors, computer trainers, all educators for that matter.

 

If they will help you, great.

You need to start looking for a job immediatly, during you training. Write letters, get recommendations from your instructor, letters from FOB operators, etc. Visit job fairs in aviation. Network your skills. Communicate with the industry. Read. You will have no trouble getting the job you want if you want it bad enough.

 

I know of 2 pilots who got work with 500 hours (approx).

 

Then again, I'm not an expert in aviation employment, but I know that networking your skills and personality will work no matter what type of job you are hunting.

 

I'm an IT Director for Harley Davidson (flying is not a career for me).

 

Paul

[ADRidge]

The only thing I feel qualified to comment on (as I won't even begin my training until June) is the job location question. You may catch a break, get lucky and find a job near your folks, but probably not. The biggest thing to remember about the Heli industry is that you go where the jobs are, or you find another profession. Vortex out in New Iberia is about as far away as you can get from Jersey in terms of surroundings, and it's where most of the jobs are.

 

I think in Canada you can't even CFI until you have well over 1k hours, but I know less about Canada's aviation rules than I do about our own.

 

Anyway, best of luck. Flying is great, and I'd consider myself lucky to be able to do it for a living. Don't let other people get you down, even if they are your folks.

[emm]

Haha... I'm far from letting anyone get me down on my dream. I may have only been really working on trying to convince my parents for a year now, but I've had the dream for 6 years. Ever since I took a cruise to Alaska and flew up in a helicopter, I thought flying was absolutely amazing. I haven't been discouraged, just delayed, and just slowly working to save some money.

[doanut99]

If you want to become a pilot, become one, nobody can stop you.

 

Your parents are not the ones who get to live your life. Your the one who ultimately must decide. Don't let them make your decisions for you.If you want to be a pilot bad enough and try your hardest, you will never be a failure in my opinion.

 

To address what your father said;

 

"d. There must be a certain percentage of commercial pilot students who

flunk out. Suppose they average 100 hours before flunking out. That would

mean 8 our of 10 students (a failure rate of 80%) would have to flunk out.

For the school is that hard do you think you will be in the 80th percentile

in your helicopter school class?"

 

How do you figure those numbers? 80% failure rate????

Thats ridiculous.

 

"You know what a pyramid scheme is don't you? This looks like a pyramid

scheme unless four of every five students finish their school but never get

CFI jobs."

 

Like Bristol said, what about every other job occupation where you start from the bottom and work your way up? (most!!)

Edited April 4, 2007 by doanut99

[zcat]

emm,

As someone who didn't take the chance to chase his dream at 18, let me tell you--if this is what you really want to do, you'll always regret it if you don't do it. You can't live your life based on what other people want for you. While I'm sure your parents love you and want what they think is best for you, you're the one who has to wake up every morning and live the life you've made. It's good to get as much advice as you can, from as many different sources as possible. I think it's great that your dad is bringing up questions that need to be answered--you need to get the answers that satisfy you. But when someone tells you that you're bound to be a failure, I would be very suspicious of that person's motives. I'm' not trying to turn you against anyone--since you're seeking the truth, make sure you see things as they really are, on both sides of the equation.

How do you figure those numbers? 80% failure rate????

I believe that's one of her dad's pyramid arguments--either 80% have to fail or you end up with waaay more CFIs than CFI slots, the latter creating an untenable job situation. Actually, it's a valid question that needs to be answered. Kind of like the old SSH proposition that all graduates will be hired as CFIs.

 

In the end, you're going to have to do what your heart is telling you. You're doing your homework, so you're not just coming into it all starry-eyed. Get the information, and if it's good enough for you, then that's the answer. And remember: "the person who says it can't be done soon finds himself under the feet of the person who is busy doing it". Wish you the best.

[FULL TOUCH DOWN]

Yes flight cost and flight time has always been a factor for us students.

 

I have a good example for you my CFI is training me on the side from his other job. He is 19 years old and started training at age 17 and he has now flown an EC 135, BELL LONGRANGER and a BELL 430 for a private individual. He makes about 47,000 a year plus training me.

 

So it shows that you can successfully go through flight school and achieve a good job. In this field you always want to present your self well because you don't know when you’re talking to a possible employer that’s what happens to him.

 

I have been in this industry for a while as a mechanic. I have seen people fail but it was because they had a house and kids. You are in a good spot to succeed do to no out side pressure except your parents. I am now in my early 30 and wish I was your age when I started.

 

You are on the right track by first trying to find the right school for you. Every school wants you to use them so they will tell you allot but by talking to schools you'll find the one that stands out to you and your needs.

 

As for a pyramid scheme it does seem like it but that’s the way hour building has been done for years. If you want to build yours you have to train students just try to train at a busy school.

 

I say go for your dream its better than thinking what could of been 10 years from now.

 

If you need more answers I try helping good luck.

[fry]

I’m 18 and just graduated last year and have been working on convincing them for about a year but haven’t quite gotten there yet but I think I’m getting closer.

 

It's all irrelevant dear. At eighteen you can't qualify for the financing and your parents (wisely) will not co-sign for a loan. Go to college, have a successful and lucrative career and buy your own helicopter...or go in the military and get that "dream of flight" itch scratched.

[emm]

Haha, I was expecting bit more pessimism from fry then that.

[67november]

BRAVO emm, don't let Mr. pessimistic discourage you

[bellpilot]

Emm,

 

All I can say Emm, is follow your dreams and never look back. If you believe you can you will succeed. It has always work for me and I will never regret flying helicopters.

 

Bellpilot

Edited April 4, 2007 by bellpilot

[Fly for food]

Emm,

 

If you want to PM me, I'll speak to you and your parents - but I'm not giving out the phone number here!!! Not only am I from New Jersey - where I know of the good places to go to, I am familiar with many jobs in the Northeast and Nationally. For a new start like you I can probably give the information you are looking for, from there you can make up your own and your parents mind.

 

I can understand why the parents are worried, and where they are coming from but it is not what they think!!! You'll love being a pilot, and if they want to take a closer look at the student end as well as the corporate or other commercial end I will send you to the right places.

 

Regards

Fly for Food

[Gerhardt]

I'm surprised that Fry wasn't slammed more for his comments. But his point is absolutely valid. Do you know how many people talk of becoming a professional helicopter pilot and never finish their PPL. Of the pilots that do get their PPLs, how many never finish their CPL? How many CPLs never get their IR? How many never finish CFI? Of the CFIs out there, how many never build their hours and land (another) job flying professionally? A LOT!

 

For some, the enthusiasm just wanes. For others, money gets in the way. And for others, life gets in the way and your situation changes and now you're more focused on marriage, kids, day job, etc. Hell, I fit in that category so I'm not knocking anyone. I was all set to take my commercial checkride a few months ago and things came up...the next thing I know four months have passed.

 

Fry said the same thing a columnist (Tropical Ed) said in Private Pilot a couple of years ago. He was always getting letters from readers writing in to say that they wanted to quit their day job and become professional pilots. His advice: Keep your day job, buy an aircraft and fly for fun. No pressure, no stress, no need to worry about the small paychecks, or worse...deteriorating health that you could lose your medical any day (and we ALL get older).

 

Incredible advice, and free too, and everyone with the aviation bug should take it. For those that don't and go on to work like hell for a flying career - congratulations - you've beaten the odds and persevered through what thousands of others couldn't.

[Pogue]

Fry & Gerhardt raise valid points and that is stuff you need to consider. So you can:

 

Get some kind of loan for school and hope you don't lose interest or have life interfere. If it does you still get to pay off the loan! If you go this way borrow the minimum amount you can stand. Really.

 

Go for military training - excellent training and benefits, but be prepared for high altitude experience in Afghanistan... You think your Mom doesn't like helicopters now?

 

Get a career in another field and fly recreationally. Probably an easier option for people who already have a decent paying job but it's doable.

 

Or you can hedge. Get a job and save and work towards your private. Then reassess - after getting your Private ticket you'll have a better idea of how much work is involved as well as what it takes to come up with the money. If you still want to continue with it then, go for it.

 

Personally I would recommend the latter, but you're the one who will have to live with the decision, so make the best one you can for your situation. Good luck!

[500pilot]

It's all irrelevant dear. At eighteen you can't qualify for the financing and your parents (wisely) will not co-sign for a loan. Go to college, have a successful and lucrative career and buy your own helicopter...or go in the military and get that "dream of flight" itch scratched.

 

 

Yo fry dude? Are you a pilot? You always seem to try and disuade people from flying when they ask a simple question. Everyone has to start somewhere and this is one of the better places to find out. Lighten up on the new people and actually help em out.

[RaymondKHessel]

Back in college we euphemistically referred to pre-med students as pre-business admin. Flame-out happens in every career, at every stage, and that bright trajectory to making enuf to buy your own plane doesn't happen for most of us.

 

"Get a good job, play basketball for fun" is good advice. You don't have to go to school for 8 years. You don't have to work another 10 really hard years doing something you don't want to do just to establish yourself at the top of your profession. And you don't have to count on that brush of luck that gets you in the right place at the right time to make it big while you're still young...just so you can go buy a ball.

 

Reality is, for most of us little people, flying commercially is the only practical option to pursue if we're going to do it. If you don't make it, you tried. If you do it and you hate it, you learned something. I tried the big career. It sucks. I'm restarting plan A now.

[bellpilot]

Raymond,

 

I am with you on that!!!!

 

bellpilot

[dlo22]

emm,

 

In my opinion, your parents have a valid argument, but besides the point, i think what I would do, is ask yourself this question first.... Do you have any way to fund this flying career. you know you will pass the medical, hopefully, and you know this is what you want to do. You know how your parents feel now.. So you also know that at 18 years old, you do not have the credit to get your own finances at all.... The number one question for right now seems to be...... Will your parents get you a loan????? ARe they in the financial place to get you a loan or co-sign the loan...... Do you have anyone in your family or friends that will basically get you the loan????? or do you have fifty thousand dollars to spend, does you family have fifty thousand to give you....

 

This is the hardest one, ok so say your parents are cool with you doing this and you really want to do it.... but they will not co-sign for you to get the funds... meaning if they co-sign, they are fully responsible for this loan for the next twenty years and it will make buying something for themselves harder.... Basically what i am trying to say is, if everyone feels great about this and you are set to do this, with or without your parents approval... HOW ARE YOU GOING TO GET THE MONEY TO FUND THIS TRAINING???? If your parents are in the situation to co-sign the loan for you and they just don't want to do it because they want you to go off to college, well then maybe you and everyone else can help convince them that this is a worthwhile career.... I was kindof in the same boat as you. but I am a little older. I didn't have the best credit, nor did i have fifty grand laying around, my parents were not in the position to cosign for me and I wouldn't expect them to even if they were doing bettter with their finances..... when i was 18 and didn't know much about life, money, loans, responsibility and so on, I would have demanded they co-sign the loan, and thought they were worthless if they didn't, but now I see the incredible sacrafices that this loan holds even five years after you graduate flight school....

 

Anyhow, if they will co-sign, convince them and you are ready to start, if they will not, convince them to help pay for half of your ppl and then see where it takes you. maybe you wont like it as much after your private and you will have saved everyone a bunch of headaches.. your parents would be more willing to help you get your private, while you are paying for some of it and working, instead of them just jumping into this flight school stuff, blind and fifty thousand in debt... so do what you got to do, but ask yourself if this dream is even possible at all... if your parents are not in the position to co sign for you and you don't have anyone else that will co-sign either. seems like you might want to alter your approach to life, and maybe join the military or just go off to college and take the help you can to get your private, to see if this is really something you want to do for the rest of your life....

 

one of the hardest things for me to overcome was the fact that I was set on going to helicopter school, i was sure i would like it after ten lessons or so, and I had to come to the realization that i didn't have the means to get a loan and go right into full time flight school... I had to come up with clever ways to re finance things I already owned and find shortcuts to funding training. even looked into government loans with a flight school that was hooked up with utah state aviation college....But it is not a good feeling when you realize this is what you want to do, and it is right there waiting for you and you do not have any means at all to get a loan to pay for this.. it stumps your dreams in the mud for awhile then somehow you will come up with a way, if you want it bad enough... worst case scenario, you have to work you butt off for a couple years, flying very few flights every month , just picking away at those hours that never seem to come fast enough... but the point is, anaylize your situation and figure out how you are going to make this happen, cause if there ainto no immediate funds then that means you might be waiting awhile and working alot...

[emm]

A lot of you bring up the financial part. As long as my parents approve, they could actually write out a check in full paying if need be, but thats not the case. My problem isn't money, like you all seem to make it sound... I still am looking for the answer to the pyramid scheme part. Is it just that so many students don't make it to CFI that the system works?

[bellpilot]

I really think this is going way to far off base. If you want anything bad enough you can achieve it. You may not realise your dream as fast as you would like but if you stay true to your dream it will happen!!!. All this info. on how you will pay the loan back, if your parents will co-sign is all bunk. If you have to pay as you go thru flight training, get a second job. If you have to have several roomates to pay the rent, do it. If you need to take a bus to work, do it. There is nothing wrong with a little sacrifice to acheive your dream.

 

Bellpilot

[emm]

just restating again. money is NOT the issue... it's getting answer's to my questions, because without answers there is no money then.

[Goldy]

ok, not trying to be an ass here..but emmm..do you want to be a doctor just because you visited an emergency room once??

 

You've NEVER even flown a bird before..how do you know this is what you really want?

 

My advice, save up $1,000 bucks...go take a couple lessons...both fixed wing and helo..and then take a look and see where you might want to go....then go to college, get your aviation degree and your PPL...and jump in. But you're jumping in quick here...sorry, you asked for the advice !! Whatever you do...fly safe and good luck.

 

Goldy

[emm]

ok, not trying to be an ass here..but emmm..do you want to be a doctor just because you visited an emergency room once??

 

You've NEVER even flown a bird before..how do you know this is what you really want?

 

My advice, save up $1,000 bucks...go take a couple lessons...both fixed wing and helo..and then take a look and see where you might want to go....then go to college, get your aviation degree and your PPL...and jump in. But you're jumping in quick here...sorry, you asked for the advice !! Whatever you do...fly safe and good luck.

 

Goldy

 

 

I did reply in a pm, but just for the other's to see anyway. I have been in a few helicopters. I do know the sensitivity of the controls, and I thought it was absolutely one of the most amazing things, and the other thing. I don't really care for airplanes. I wouldn't exactly say I'm in quick here because it's not like I just came up with this suddenly. I've wanted to be a helicopter pilot for about 6 years now, just only tried convincing my parents for the past year.

[Goldy]

emm- I sent you a PM back, but wanted to mention one thing about the whole pyramid scheme thing. Some schools do feed off of themselves, they are well known, and you can find comments on this board and others about them. The real need in helo drivers is a couple factors.

 

One- Vietnam ended around 1975 if I recall..hmm..a kid 22 years old in 1975 would be almost 55 now, and thinking about retiring in the next ten years. Vietnam was one of the largest helicopter users, hence the military was one of the largest trainers (and still is). If those pilots were 30 when the war ended, they are 63 now...

 

Two- Currently many pilots are also reserve military. They have been called into active duty..so public agencies and others are scrambling to backfill those slots.

 

Three-Oil industry is at an all time high. Have you looked at the profits oil companies have reported in the last 2 years? So, exploration is also at an all time high....and the best way to explore is by helo.

 

Four-Devastation in the gulf....talk to one of the GOMer pilots out there...they have a lot of work right now, and a lot of contracts to fulfill. Many of the rigs are still not in production from the hurricanes 2 years ago !! Limited helo's and limited trained rig workers.

 

Five-Every pilot needs a helicopter. Check out HAI's website and look at new helo sales for 2005 and 2006. Lets just say there are more being built and sold right now than EVER before..both civil and military.

 

Hope this one is a bit more helpful....speaking of military...I would definitely check that out if I were 18..

[emm]

Hope this one is a bit more helpful....speaking of military...I would definitely check that out if I were 18..

 

the military scares me

 

--- aside from that ^... does anyone know where I could find statistics on the amount of students that drop out from flight school, or the amount that only make it to their PPL, or CPL, etc..?

Edited April 5, 2007 by emm