"Cleared into Class Bravo"

[Gomer Pylot]

Joker, the main flaw I find in your logic is that a clearance to do one thing is not a clearance to do something else. An instruction to maintain a heading, or an altitude, or to do anything else may be a clearance, but it is not a clearance to enter Class B airspace. It is also not a clearance to enter a restricted or prohibited area. A controller may give you a heading under VFR, and could possibly forget about you. If you continue on that heading, and enter a prohibited area, TFR, other controlled airspace, or hit a mountain, you have no defense. Under VFR, you, and you alone, are responsible for navigation and for complying with airspace regulations. What the controller would prefer is immaterial. If he has a 'deal', it's going to be your butt, not his.

[sky2]

Since most are having fun with this, how about I throw a twist at it.

On an IFR clearance; You never get the magic words; Right?

That one may be easy to defend, but...

When on an IFR clearance and you cancel IFR, 15 miles out, You still don't get the magic words...

And now your VFR, right back where we started.

This may be the set up that catches the controllers off guard.

Thoughts

[Gomer Pylot]

Very true. If you cancel IFR, then you're VFR, just like you never had an IFR clearance. Cancelling IFR inbound to a Class B airport isn't very smart. An IFR clearance puts the burden on ATC to clear you through any area on your route, including restricted areas, TFRs, and everything else. ATC is also responsible for terrain clearance. VFR, the pilot is responsible for everything.

 

Another gotcha in cancelling IFR can be when you're inbound to an uncontrolled airport, which has a Class E surface area. You break out on the approach at 900 feet or so, have the airport in sight, and cancel IFR. You just violated the FARs by operating under VFR with the weather less than VMC, and if a FSDO guy is down there, and feels a little frisky, he can take your certificate for awhile.

[joker]

Damn - just when I thought we'd got to the end!

 

Gomer,

 

Yes, now I completely see what you are saying. So now we are down to semantics - wordings. We have got to the level of 'legal interpretation' as the wording of the FAR is no longer capable of being distinct at the level we require.

 

What I mean is this:

 

91.131(a)(1) says, "The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area. "

 

My logic relies on a litteral interpretation, the fact that it doesn't ask for a 'clearance to enter class B', it just asks for an 'ATC clearance'. Then I go an apply the definition from 1.1 and all the other arguements.

 

Does that mean any ATC clearance before entering, or is the intent that you get a specific clearance to enter Class B? What I do know is that if the litteral view seems reasonable, it is more likely. However, we have no way of knowing. For this reason, I think it is now out of our hands!

 

Thanks for chipping in. Sorry to draw you in.

 

Sky2,

 

What a maelstrom you created! And now you start another! LOL! Good.

 

Like you say, IFR is IFR and you don't need any clearance. But you say, what if you terminate your IFR prior to landing, inside Class B? You are now inside Class B, and you never heard any words!!! Hilarious!

 

Oh, I don't know. My mind is fried at the moment. I'll have a think of a defence you could use for that. Once again, we see the FAR breaking down and veering from practical application.

 

Actually, interesting you mention IFR. I was considering mentioning it when I was talking about heading / altitude assignments, and the duty to comply with those. In IFR, if you are given a heading into a a hot restricted area you comply, and you don't need further confirmation. Is the mechanism and intent similar to a VFR pilot being given a heading into Class B?

 

Just a thought.

 

Right, I must go and fly.

 

Thanks,

 

Joker

 

Edited August 29, 2007 by joker

[joker]

When on an IFR clearance and you cancel IFR, 15 miles out, You still don't get the magic words...

And now your VFR, right back where we started.

 

In your scenario, you had received a clearance from a controller from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area. 91.131(a). That was your initial clearance to enter (in whatever shape or form) or the one where you were handed off to him and he accepted you.

 

 

 

Joker

Edited August 30, 2007 by joker

[Gomer Pylot]

I don't agree with you on this one, either. You had a clearance under IFR, but your cancellation of IFR cancelled that and all other clearances, assuming you cancelled IFR before entering Class B airspace. Once you cancel IFR, you have no clearance to do anything.

[joker]

Actually we do agree there. If you cancel IFR outside Bravo you are back to square 1. That's a no-brainer.

 

assuming you cancelled IFR before entering Class B airspace

 

My answer was based on cancelling IFR inside Class B, but 15 miles out from your destination airport (also inside Class . Would this ever happen? Anyway, that's what I thought Sparker was musing. If it wasn't, then my bad.

 

Joker

Edited August 30, 2007 by joker

[Gomer Pylot]

15 miles out from the airport could easily be outside Class B, depending on altitude. For instance, going into the DFW Class B to DAL, you aren't inside the Class B until within 3 miles or so of DAL if you're at or below 2500' MSL, and not a lot further until you're well above that. I don't have the terminal chart at hand, but at most Class B airports it's easy enough to be outside the Class B surface area at 15 miles. I can't imagine cancelling IFR inside Class B airspace, nor even outside it if I'm planning to enter it, but I guess it's theoretically possible. Lots of things are possible while not being smart.

[Hammster]

Hey guys here is a video I got to help make at the airspace that sky2 gets to fly threw all the time. It has all the radio calls that we make to get out and back into Bravo. It was fun to work on and helped me get familiarized with the steps needed to get in and out of the airspace.

 

[iChris]

Hi everyone,

 

I am an air traffic controller at Williams Gateway Tower in the Phoenix, AZ area. We are not class bravo, but I do a webpage to help pilots understand ATC better and vice versa, and was asked by a pilot to come on a clear up some stuff if I can. Although I don't know the in's and out's of the Bravo airspace, I do know there is one golden rule you should always follow. NEVER ASSUME ANYTHING. As stated a few times in here previously, it is your ticket. There are a lot of grumpy and annoyed Controllers out there who are just drawing a paycheck. They shortcut wherever they can, but if there is an issue, they're going to pin it on you, the pilot, as quickly as possible. I see it all the time. Approach control clears someone for a visual appproach to a bordering airport, doesn't tell the pilot to remain out of the bordering airspace, and doesn't coordinate for a point-out. Let me assure you in any situation, if there is a gray area, it will become YOUR fault. That doesn't make it right, just the fact. Do yourself a favor, always get clarification and never assume anything. Air traffic control was mean to be black and white. Not ambiguous. If you feel an instruction is gray, get a black and white answer.

 

www.myspace.com/dr_atc

 

John

 

 

Excellent reply and inline with the Chief Counsel’s opinion.

 

“First, you question whether the vector providing the heading and altitude assignment is a clearance under § 91.131 (a)(l) to enter the Los Angeles Class B airspace. The answer is no. A pilot must specifically receive an ATC clearance to enter the class B airspace. The issuance of a vector provides navigation information but does not provide clearance from ATC to enter the subject airspace.”

 

FAA Office Of The Chief Counsel Opinion

 

Another myth that’s been around a long time, the so-called magic words "cleared into the class bravo airspace." However, they have no special magic, just one of the phraseologies that maybe used.

 

If those were magic words they would be included in the FAR as such. Lookup “AIR TRAFFIC CLEARANCE” under FAR 1.1 and in the PILOT/CONTROLLER GLOSSARY

 

As an example of other valid phraseology:

 

You request to enter Class B for a photo flight 1NM east of the class B airport. The controller responds as follows:

 

“Cleared as requested, remain at or below 1,000’, report on station.”

Edited December 29, 2011 by iChris

[avbug]

I fly in and out of Class B multiple times every day. Out of the last 100 times I have heard those famous words "you are cleared into class Bravo" MAYBE 15 times. Well today I got the "copy a number and call the tower on the ground" call.

I called the tower and talked to the supervisor, we know each other and had a chat. I told him that the clearance practice is not followed 80% of the time. He said he would talk to his controllers.

 

Doubtless you're familiar with the saying that ignorance of the law is no excuse, but the requirement to have a clearance into Class B airspace is regulatory and you'll find it expanded upon in the AIM: there's no excuse for flying in Class B airspace and not knowing the requirement. One of the basic requirements of Class B is that a clearance is required, period.

 

The only time you shouldn't be hearing a Class B clearance when entering Class B airspace is when operating IFR. Your transit through all types of airspace is implicit in your IFR clearance: ATC won't grant individual clearances for each airspace, nor tell you when you're transitioning from one airspace to another, which is one of the big advantages of operating under IFR; it's all homogenous so far as you're concerned; one clearance, and go. Not so much, when VFR.

 

I'm not sure if the assignment of a vector absolves the requirement to say "cleared into class bravo." I do know that when they give you headings and altitudes (a vector), the controller accepts responsibility for terrain avoidance, so perhaps the responsibility for Class B airspace penetration is similar. On the other hand, if you're navigating on your own, you should need to hear "cleared into class Bravo" because the controller can reasonably expect you to stay out of his/her Class B.

 

This is aviation. Be sure.

 

Assignment of a vector does not alleviate the pilot of the responsibility for obtaining a clearance into Class B airspace.

 

Assignment of a vector does not alleviate a VFR pilot of terrain clearance, nor does the controller assume responsibility for terrain clearance when a pilot operating under VFR is assigned or accepts a vector. Read your AIM:

 

5-5-6. Radar Vectors

a. Pilot.

1. Promptly complies with headings and altitudes assigned to you by the controller.

2. Questions any assigned heading or altitude believed to be incorrect.

3. If operating VFR and compliance with any radar vector or altitude would cause a violation of any CFR, advises ATC and obtains a revised clearance or instructions.

b. Controller.

1. Vectors aircraft in Class A, Class B, Class C, Class D, and Class E airspace:

(a) For separation.

( For noise abatement.

© To obtain an operational advantage for the pilot or controller.

2. Vectors aircraft in Class A, Class B, Class C, Class D, Class E, and Class G airspace when requested by the pilot.

3. Vectors IFR aircraft at or above minimum vectoring altitudes.

4. May vector VFR aircraft, not at an ATC assigned altitude, at any altitude. In these cases, terrain separation is the pilot's responsibility.

 

Remember that the responsibility to seek clarification when one isn't absolutely certain, is universal and a regulatory requirement:

 

§ 91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.

(a) When an ATC clearance has been obtained, no pilot in command may deviate from that clearance unless an amended clearance is obtained, an emergency exists, or the deviation is in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory. However, except in Class A airspace, a pilot may cancel an IFR flight plan if the operation is being conducted in VFR weather conditions. When a pilot is uncertain of an ATC clearance, that pilot shall immediately request clarification from ATC.

 

A) That 'magic phrase' - Do we have to hear those words?

 

It has become tribal-voice that a pilot must hear that phrase before a clearance can be said to have been received. Quite clearly this is untrue. Nowhere in the FAR does it explicitly require the pilot to hear those words. If the magic words really are magic, I'm certain the FAR would include them somewhere. Indeed, 7110.65 even provides an alternate phrase. (Simply, "Cleared as requested.")

 

One does NOT need to hear the exact phraseology "Cleared into Class B," and yes, the controller may simply state "cleared as requested," if the pilot has already requested Class B clearance. However, do you know for certain that the controller heard your request properly, or that he's actually responding to you? If it's busy on the frequency, "Cleared as requested" is an open-ended response and while designed to minimize radio time, doesn't give you any feedback as to what you wanted to do. You may have made a request that in your mind has you transiting Class B airspace, but that the controller doesn't intend for you to transit. The controller knows that YOU know, as a certificated pilot, your responsibility to seek a Class B clearance. If you request direct to point XXXXX and assume that "cleared as requested" is your Class B clearance, you're mistaken.

 

If your question was "Am I cleared into Class B airspace?" and the controller replied "Cleared as requested," you may have a good idea that the controller has cleared you, even though you don't have a specific statement as such. Any time clarification is required, you're required to ask. See 14 CFR 91.124(a) above. This is not optional.

 

You appear to be concerned about the semantics of "magic words." Let us not forget that your pilot certificate is at stake, as well as safety of flight. Whether you hear the "magic words" or not is irrelevant. You need to verify your clearance, period, ad infinitum, no questions asked, and no room for error. If you think you made the proper request and you think ATC has confirmed it, you're taking a gamble. Plain English still works exceptionally well. "Cleared as requested" can mean a lot of things, though "Cleared into Class Bravo" is fairly explicit and clear. You decide.

 

Generally if you ask to transit a busy terminal area and the controller doesn't want you in the airspace, you'll be informed "Remain outside Class B airspace," but this isn't always the case. The controller may omit the warning and operate on the basis that you haven't been cleared, and because you're required to obtain a clearance, the omission of a clearance prevents you administratively from entering that airspace. If you are cleared direct but not given the clearance to enter Class B or if you have asked to cross the terminal area to get to the other side, a "cleared as requested" does NOT serve as a clearance to enter Class B, and you'll be presumed to know enough to stay clear by operating at the appropriate altitudes to avoid entering Class B. The controller may simply be too busy to tell you to remain outside Class B, or may expect you to use a VFR transition corridor. If you don't have explicit authorization to enter, and you didn't clearly state your intention and get a clear response, you have a regulatory responsibility and duty to get clarification. Ask if you're cleared into Class B.

 

Next 91.123 is considered.

 

This rule of course requires a pilot to comply with an air traffic clearance unless an emergency deviation is required.

 

Consider the title of this rule. Here 'clearance' and 'instruction' are mentioned. Apart from ( the word 'instruction' is always mentioned with the word 'clearance'. Could this imply that an instruction carries the same weight as a clearance?

 

Now, if a heading assignment was not considered an appropriate 91.131 clearance as KeysCapt so strongly attests, then we could have a situation where a pilot must deviate from the ATC instructions to avoid Class B penetration. In that case he runs the risk of being cited for violation of 91.123. Either that or the pilot complies with the instruction and risks being cited for busting 91.131(a)!! This again is absurd.

 

Let me say first of all, you appear to be a student pilot. Don't try to know more than you know. You'll get yourself in a lot of trouble.

 

As we've already seen, when given vectors and VFR, YOU are responsible: you're responsible for traffic, terrain, and for compliance with the CFR (regulations). If you're given a vector that takes you into Class B airspace and you don't have a Class B clearance, it's on YOU to get that clearance. The vector doesn't clear you into Class B airspace.

 

If you're given a clearance that you can't accept for reasons of regulation or safety, it's up to YOU to refuse the clearance. Quickly seek clarification: am I cleared into Class B? No? Unable heading 350, request clearance Class Bravo. Easy.

 

You don't appear to understand the difference between IFR and VFR operations, how each operates in relation to ATC, and the nature of a clearance. Again, don't try to guess at what the regulation states. You don't appear to have studied your AIM. Do so, then begin posting again.

 

Next, let's just apply logic here.

 

1 - a controller can reasonably be expected to know whether a vector will cause an aircraft to penetrate his airspace before he gives it. In other words, if he gives an aircraft such a vector, he did so knowingly.

 

2 - a controller has no jurisdiction to control an aircraft outside his airspace.

 

3 - A vectored assignment must be a clearance as well. It must be absurd to conclude that when a controller gives any vector to the pilot, he is anything but cleared to comply as well! That is, he will not be impeded or in conflict with other traffic if he follows that instruction. For example, in IFR when instructed to turn left to 360, I don't then say," Confirm cleared to turn left to 360!"

 

4 – A controller will not provide radar service unless he has established and is able to maintain radar contact. 7110.65 Para 5-3-1.

 

Knock off with the "logic" already. Either you know, or you don't. This is aviation. We don't guess. We know. If you don't know, don't try to reason out what you think is going on; do a little research, study, learn, and know. We don't have room for gueswork.

 

1 - a controller can reasonably be expected to know whether a vector will cause an aircraft to penetrate his airspace before he gives it. In other words, if he gives an aircraft such a vector, he did so knowingly.

 

Not so. You don't know who is controlling what parcel of airspace. The vector may not affect the controller who gave the vector, but it may affect another controller, and it's still up to you to get the clearance. You're VFR, after all. It's all on YOU.

 

If the controller assigns a vector, he may assign it for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that you're conflicting with traffic he's working, and he wants to turn you. That vector may put you into Class B airspace: it's still on YOU to get the clearance and get legal, refuse the vector, or advise the controller of your intentions and needs. This is all on YOU.

 

2 - a controller has no jurisdiction to control an aircraft outside his airspace.

 

Wrong. You don't know the limits or boundaries of the controller's airspace, or if the controller is handling airspace for another controller or area; "jurisdiction" shifts; what was Class D may become class E, or may shift at certain times into other airspace or be controlled by another party. Service outages or coffee breaks, or other necessities may mean that a controller is handling additional airspace or different airspace today. You don't have the charting in the airplane to know this, and if you did, it may be different now than it was five minutes ago for a number of reasons. Dont' assume. KNOW. If you don't know, ASK.

 

3 - A vectored assignment must be a clearance as well. It must be absurd to conclude that when a controller gives any vector to the pilot, he is anything but cleared to comply as well! That is, he will not be impeded or in conflict with other traffic if he follows that instruction. For example, in IFR when instructed to turn left to 360, I don't then say," Confirm cleared to turn left to 360!"

 

Negative! A vector is NOT a clearance, especially under VFR. It doesn't clear you into airspace, it doesn't alleviate you of terrain or obstruction clearance, doens't alleviate you of your responsibility to see and avoid other traffic, and it's not a clearance.

 

You're also referencing readbacks; these aren't required for headings, but are worthwhile none the less if frequency congestion isn't a factor. You should be aware, however, that the FAA has made clear the fact that if you read back a clearance or ATC assignment incorrectly, ATC has NO responsibility in failing to catch the error or correct it. Once more, if you're unsure of a clearance, you're required to ask, and to seek clarification.

 

As an aside, if you're given an altitude or vector, make your transmission clear about what's an altitude, and what's a heading. Include the word "heading" when reading back a heading, so it's not confused with anything else. I've heard numerous aircraft on the same frequency with very similiar callsigns being given similar sounding directions; it's very easy to mistaken one for the other. When we hear "Two One Zero Mike Lima, turn right heading one two zero, climb and maintain flight level two one zero," and "One Zero Two Lima Mike turn left heading two one zero descend and maintain one two thousand feet," followed by "Two One Zero Lima Lima Turn right heading one two zero, descend and maintain one thousand two hundred feet," there's room for a lot of conflicting errors. When in doubt, ask.

 

4 – A controller will not provide radar service unless he has established and is able to maintain radar contact. 7110.65 Para 5-3-1

 

Assignment of a vector may not be radar service. You're aware that traffic separation for VFR traffic is a volutary, participatory advisory service given on a traffic-permitting basis, correct? A vector may be away from a busy corridor, or for other reasons. Assignment of a vector while operating VFR doesn't imply that you're getting radar service, or that you're getting anything, for that matter. You don't need to accept the assignment. You may refuse and may likely be told to remain outside Class B. You may have put yourself in a position where the controller needs you gone.

 

Regardless, whether you have radar service or not is irrelevant with respect to your requirement to obtain Class B clearance. Where the controller does have positive radar identification and is providing radar service on a workload permitting basis, a vector still doesn't give you guarantee of traffic, terrain, or obstacle separation, nor is it a clearance, nor is it an authorization to enter Class B. That responsibility always rests, when VFR, with YOU.

 

1 - I stress, I haven't found any confirming information, but I would say that if a controller gives you a vector through his airspace, this is a clearance. Why? Well, if you are still outside his airspace, then he doesn't have jurisdiction to vector you!!!! Simple! So by giving you a vector he is accepting you. Duh! Don't quote me though. I will continue to check this out.

 

You say so incorrectly, for several reasons, some of which have already been discussed.

 

You seem to be of the opinion that a controller who is operating Class B airspace doesn't "own" any airspace outside the Class B. You're mistaken.

 

If you're assigned a vector, as a VFR target operating outside controlled airspace, or in this case outside Class B airspace, you are under no obligation to accept the vector. Once more, traffic separation, obstruction clearance, and airspace clearances are all on YOU. Refusing a vector may delay your ability to get a clearance into the airspace, and you cannot accept a vector which will cause you to violate the regulation, as we've already seen.

 

How do you know which specific controller is operating the airspace you're currently using? You don't. All you know is the type of airspace, and your rights and responsibilities in that airspace. Or at least, you should. You don't appear to know this; you need to learn, as not only can it get you in trouble, but can put you in physical jeopardy as well. Know before you go.

 

i.e "M'lord / Your honnor! The airwaves were busy, and I couldn't get further confirmation. I was radar identified. So, if you insist I violated 91.131(a), then I insist I invoked my right and duty under 91.3( and continued with what I thought was the safer option - maintaining assigned heading and altitude, knowing that this would penetrate Class B airspace. I elected for that rather than interrupt the controller*, a course of action which would have resulted in meyhem in the air, as I believed he would have lost his concentration on other more pertinent matters."

 

Very wrong.

 

You're going to use a regulation (91.3) that puts the burden on you, to justify your violation of the regulation? You're using a regulation which assures that you have no excuse, to make an excuse?

 

You're not attempting to appeal to 91.3( are you? Emergency authority? You're going to attempt to assert that your failure to obtain a clearance to enter Class B was an emergency? You might just create one that way, but you can rest assured that 91.3 doesn't grant you the authority to violate the regulation except in an emergency, and you've got very little excuse when you've created the emergency. Surely you're not going to attempt to assert that vector is an emergency? If so, then you need to stop flying immediately and do some serious re-evaluation of your future priorities. Choose something that doesn't involve flying.

 

I absolutely think the controller would rather you did this too, then start circling on the edge of his airspace waiting for a break in his communciation just to have him say magic words which are not required by regulations and don't appear anywhere in the FAR!

 

You absolutely think the controller would rather you go busting into airspace for which you're not cleared, rather than remaining outside that airspace as you're required to do by the regulation? See the response above.

 

You're caught up on this semantic "magic word" thing. Put down the helium balloon and stop breathing the gas.

 

The regulation requires you to have a clearance to enter Class B when VFR, pure and simple. No question about it. Whether it's phrased as "cleared to enter" is irrelevant. Unless you have a clearance into Class B, you can't enter when VFR. If you don't have a clearance to enter, stay out. Again, very, very simple.

 

If you're given a vector that would cause you to violate the regulation by entering Class B airspace without an explicit clearance, then it's YOUR responsibility to refuse to enter, request and obtain the clearance, stipulate "unable" and not enter the Class B airspace. A vector is not a clearance. A vector when VFR is not a clearance. It assumes no responsibility, and doesn't take away any of yours. YOU remain responsible.

 

Be responsible. Get the clearance.

 

Don't assume.

Edited January 5, 2012 by avbug

[Rogue]

As iChris said - the actual clearance can take many forms,so you may not explicitly hear the "magic words" .

 

Look up RADAR CONTACT in the PC/G. If a Class B controller states "Radar Contact, maintain 2000 heading 270" then that would be a clearance to enter as the PC/G states that Radar contact means - "The term used to inform the controller that the aircraft is identified and approval is granted for the aircraft to enter the receiving controllers airspace."

 

Also, as another example if you are "Cleared to land XYZ airport" and XYZ airport in inside Bravo are you really going to ask "am I cleared to enter Bravo?"

 

The trick is spending some time learning what phrases do not imply a clearance and which ones do imply a clearance, if there is any doubt than ask but there is no requirement to hear any "magic words"

Edited February 2, 2012 by Rogue

[tracon]

The phrasology "Radar Contact" IS NOT a VFR clearance into bravo airspace.

 

VFR aircraft must obtain an ATC clearance to operate in Class B airspace.

 

PHRASEOLOGY

CLEARED THROUGH/TO ENTER/OUT OF BRAVO AIRSPACE,

and as appropriate,

VIA (route). MAINTAIN (altitude) WHILE IN BRAVO AIRSPACE.

 

or

 

CLEARED AS REQUESTED.

(Additional instructions, as necessary.)

 

REMAIN OUTSIDE BRAVO AIRSPACE. (When necessary, reason and/or additional instructions.)

 

NOTE-

1. Assignment of radar headings, routes, or altitudes is

based on the provision that a pilot operating in accordance

with VFR is expected to advise ATC if compliance will

cause violation of any part of the CFR.

 

2. Separation and sequencing for VFR aircraft is

dependent upon radar. Efforts should be made to segregate

VFR traffic from IFR traffic flows when a radar outage occurs.

 

b. Approve/deny requests from VFR aircraft to

operate in Class B airspace based on workload,

operational limitations and traffic conditions.

 

c. Inform the pilot when to expect further

clearance when VFR aircraft are held either inside or outside Class B airspace.

 

d. Inform VFR aircraft when leaving Class B airspace.

 

PHRASEOLOGY

LEAVING (name) BRAVO AIRSPACE, and as appropriate,

RESUME OWN NAVIGATION, REMAIN THIS

FREQUENCY FOR TRAFFIC ADVISORIES, RADAR

SERVICE TERMINATED, SQUAWK ONE TWO ZERO ZERO.

 

NOTE:

Assignment of radar headings, routes, or altitudes is

based on the provision that a pilot operating in accordance

with VFR is expected to advise ATC if compliance will

cause violation of any part of the CFR.

 

Vector aircraft to remain in Class B airspace

after entry. Inform the aircraft when leaving and

reentering Class B airspace if it becomes necessary to

extend the flight path outside Class B airspace for

spacing.

[Rogue]

The phrasology "Radar Contact" IS NOT a VFR clearance into bravo airspace.

 

<sigh>

 

What is the definition given in the PILOT CONTROLLER GLOSSARY for the words RADAR CONTACT?

 

<sigh>

 

also you are only quoting the regs that support your stance

 

this -

 

c. Inform the pilot when to expect further

clearance when VFR aircraft are held either inside or outside Class B airspace.

 

 

If I was told to maintain 2000 and 270 AND remain clear that is one thing

If I was told to maintain 2000 and 270 AND not told to remain clear that is another thing

 

Since you are hung up on doing it by the book then tell the whole story. If a controller gives you only a heading and altitude and wants you to remain clear then the controller NEEDS to say so.

 

Again as iChris showed with the Chief Counsel's opinion, that the FAA cannot even read their own regs right, you should ask if there is any doubt.

 

Its not rocket science folks. Controllers get busy and don't use correct by the book phraseology all the time and neither do pilots. In fact the AIM even says to use plain language if you have to.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Rogue

[r22butters]

"...am I cleared into bravo?", said those exact words just the other night. I agree,...not rocket science!

[Rogue]

And why did you have to ask Butters ?

 

because controllers can't follow the rules ! they even have a book telling them exactly what to say and they still can't get it right.

 

there should be just as much onus a controller as there is on a pilot.

 

the thing is there is the book and there is reality and the reality is that the controllers don't follow the book on a regular basis

Edited February 3, 2012 by Rogue

[tracon]

<sigh>

Its not rocket science folks. Controllers get busy and don't use correct by the book phraseology all the time and neither do pilots. In fact the AIM even says to use plain language if you have to.

 

 

Pilots operating in accordance with VFR are expected to advise ATC if compliance with assigned altitudes, headings, or routes will cause violation of any part of the CFR.

 

Controllers routinely handle airspace under their control, that is both within and outside Bravo Airspace and as such, a request to enter Bravo is required of the VFR pilot. Assuming something is granted is the quickest way to learn otherwise. When in doubt ask, controllers are here to assist and in many cases will surprise you with our willingness to grant your request or clarify something.

[helonorth]

You're a very patient man (or woman), tracon. Comes with the job, I guess!

[Pohi]

Just flaming the fires because it's cold outside, but is the pilot controller glossary a regulation?

 

Just like the AIM. It's nice and all, but it's not a regulation.

 

I don't have a copy of the far/aim in front of me, so I really don't know and am curious if the glossary is part of the regs or just a neat thing they threw in the back of the book

[aeroscout]

Neither is regulatory, but in counsel's opinions, and adjudicated cases, they are referred to as if they were. In pilot terms, you can get hammered for not complying with them.

[r22butters]

And why did you have to ask Butters ?

 

I don't remember exactly what the controller said, but I wasn't sure,...so I asked.

 

This seems to be one of those, "mountain out of molehill" type of threads!?

[tracon]

I'll make it simple for you guys and quote your own regulation since it leaves no room for mis-interpetation.

 

91.131 Operations in Class B airspace.

 

(a) Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B airspace area except in compliance with §91.129 and the following rules:

 

(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.

 

"Radar Contact" simply means I've located and identified your aircraft on my radar screen and as a radar indentified VFR aircraft, I've agreed to offer flight following and traffic advisories as my workload permits. Your still flying under VFR flight rules.

Thats it, nothing else applies or is implied.

[aeroscout]

Your attempts to derail this thread are having an adverse affect on the mountain building efforts.

[Rogue]

a request to enter Bravo is required of the VFR pilot. Assuming something is granted is the quickest way to learn otherwise.

 

ummm.... what exactly do you think we are doing out there when we say "class bravo request?"

 

you are making it sound as though I'm just flying along and call up bravo and saying "I'm coming through"

 

again I ask the question that you didn't answer - what does the PC/G say that the words Radar Contact mean ? (hint I already posted it once)

 

also please show me any FAA reference that validates what you say it means.

 

In any event, not making a mountain out of a molehill on this side of the equation - just hate it when people take my words out of context (so maybe I am? oh well). If the FAA does not intend for the phrase "radar contact" to mean that the aircraft is cleared into the airspace then they need to change the PC/G to reflect that. again please show me an FAA reference that says otherwise. and i'm not talking about 91.131 or 7110.65, I'm talking about an FAA reference that says "radar contact does not clear aircraft" because according to the PC/G it does !

 

Anyhow, to prevent any more cherry picking of choice words here let's paint a complete picture -

pilot "bravo 12345 request"

controller "12345say request"

pilot "i want to land at an airport in your airspace"

controller "12345 squawk 3219"

........

controller "12345 radar contact, maintain 270 2000 feet confirm you have charlie"

pilot "wilco request frequency change"

controller "frequency change approved, return this frequency"

.........

pilot "12345 level 2000"

controller "contact tower .9"

pilot "tower .9 thanks"

 

I thought of this thread after this exact situation happened just the other day, the text I just wrote was near verbatim. As another poster said this is common in Orlando area. Only part I left out was when I asked if I was cleared into Bravo. Like another poster said, controller got fussy - he said "yes you asked to go into bravo and I said radar contact" !

 

So you can thump your internet chest all you want, like I said it happens in real life all the time. Some controllers GASP actually know what the PC/G says radar contact means.

 

[helonorth]

Maybe he got mad at you because you didn't confirm you had the ATIS. Sounds like you called them without already having listened to it. Did you ask for a frequency change so you could listen to it? Strike one! Next time instead of confusing you, they probably just won't answer. They don't have to!

Edited February 28, 2012 by helonorth