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Solo time,...well not really!


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#1 r22butters

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 12:33

So it seems (as recently mentioned in Rotorcraft Pro) that in lieu of the "10 hours of solo time" needed to get your license, you can spend that time "performing the duties of pilot in command" while having yor cfi sit next to you?

As a pilot with almost 500 hours of solo time I can't imagine why anyone would throw away the opportunity to fly solo,...I don't know maybe its just this new "hold my hand" geneation or something?

Hell, you want to evaluate my decision making skills do it during our allotted "dual" time, you ain't touchin' my "me" time!

Anyway, all ranting aside, my real question here is,...

Do cfi's still get to log this new "solo" time as PIC time as well?
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#2 HeliHunter

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Posted 29 April 2018 - 09:56

From my experience this is not something that most student pilots choose rather the flight school tells them. The place I trained at as a student pilot, you get 5hrs solo during private rating and then you were never in the helicopter solo again fo the rest of your ratings. The school would have bypassed even those 5 hrs if they could have, so instead they made sure you only went out at less than 5kts on only best of days.

These are also the same schools that will train you with all of you rating but then refuse to let you rent with them because it's too high of a risk. And yes I agree it is a shame because you don't get any real confidence until your first flights actually working a job where you make all the decisions, or rent in your case. Sadly most students probably didn't get a choice.

No the CFI can not log it PIC time (although I am pretty sure most did), the student pilot does not log it as "solo" because he is not. You do log PIC and then you do not log any of it as "dual" even though here is a CFI next you and that's how it should look in the logbook. The CFI is not suppose to instruct you or take controls at any time, except safety of flight reason, and if they do then you log dual and the flight does not count as meeting the requirements. You can't use this Rule in private rating because the student is not a rated pilot yet. During Commerical rating is where I have usually seen it being used.
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#3 vertrefadmin

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 11:39

Here is a link to the article (Rotorcraft Checkride Mar/Apr Issue) that gives an in depth explanation

 

- https://content.yudu.com/web/1umli/0A1umlm/RotorcraftMarApr18/html/index.html?page=86&origin=reader

 


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#4 overtorque

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Posted 01 May 2018 - 01:14

I got a good question I've been wondering. My flight school had a restriction that you couldn't practice autorotations of any kind by yourself as a student pilot trying to attain a PPL. Is this normal for most schools?

 

It frustrated me before the check ride since I was expected to show an autorotation to a stranger on my own yet I wasn't allowed to practice it on my own.



#5 r22butters

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Posted 02 May 2018 - 21:13

I got a good question I've been wondering. My flight school had a restriction that you couldn't practice autorotations of any kind by yourself as a student pilot trying to attain a PPL. Is this normal for most schools?

 

It frustrated me before the check ride since I was expected to show an autorotation to a stranger on my own yet I wasn't allowed to practice it on my own.

 

Yeah, no school lets students (or probably anybody for that matter) practice autos on their own.  Waaaay too much liability there rolling the throttle down and gliding without a safety pilot!  Besides, you're not really "on your own" during the checkride.  The examiner is there to grab the controls and takeover should you do anything crazy! 

 

You want to do autos on your own, buy your own chopper,...but don't tell your insurance guy what you're doing with it.  :o


Edited by r22butters, 02 May 2018 - 21:15.

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#6 Randy Rowles

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 09:29

The question was asked, "Do cfi's still get to log this new "solo" time as PIC time as well? "

 

Answer - 

 

Yes. the CFI can still log PIC during "performing the duties of pilot in command in a helicopter with an authorized instructor on board" because it requires an "Authorized Instructor'. Since an instructor is required in this case, it meets the function of a flight instructor. As per 14 CFR Part 61.51(e) A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft. 

 

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

Randy Rowles

randyrowlesdpe@gmail.com



#7 r22butters

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 10:57

The question was asked, "Do cfi's still get to log this new "solo" time as PIC time as well? "
 
Answer - 
 
Yes. the CFI can still log PIC during "performing the duties of pilot in command in a helicopter with an authorized instructor on board" because it requires an "Authorized Instructor'. Since an instructor is required in this case, it meets the function of a flight instructor. As per 14 CFR Part 61.51(e) A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft. 
 
 
Hope this helps.
 
 
Randy Rowles
randyrowlesdpe@gmail.com


Tell me something Randy, what do you think about a school that says there's no option, you HAVE to ride with a cfi during your solo time?

There's a guy on Reddit going for a ppl and two schools have told him that so far!

Personally, I think its a load of sh*t, just like I think this reg is a load of sh*t!
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#8 Eric Hunt

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Posted 05 May 2018 - 19:42

Randy, he is only "required" to be on the flight because that school doesn't have enough confidence in :

a. the instructor's ability to assess if a student is safe to fly a sequence solo, and

b. the student's ability to fly a sequence solo.

 

Both of those reflect on the standards of the school. It is not an FAA requirement to have an instructor on board a "solo" flight, only that of the school.

 

This instructor is only sitting there as a sandbag, and should not have any input into the conduct of the flight, unless necessary to save the aircraft. Thus, he should not be logging any time at all, and shouldn't even be in the aircraft.


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#9 Randy Rowles

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 17:45

Tell me something Randy, what do you think about a school that says there's no option, you HAVE to ride with a cfi during your solo time?

There's a guy on Reddit going for a ppl and two schools have told him that so far!

Personally, I think its a load of sh*t, just like I think this reg is a load of sh*t!

 

Based upon your description ("...you HAVE to ride with a cfi during your solo time?), the regulation outweighs any opinion I may have. You cannot log "solo" if an Instructor is on board. Within 14 CFR Part 61.129©(4), the Reg specifically states:..Ten hours of solo flight time in a helicopter or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a helicopter with an authorized instructor on board

 

​This separates "solo" from their intent of "acting as PIC". So the answer to you comment is simply the FAA felt that a pilot already holding a Private Pilot Certificate or higher would not require additional "solo" experience even when training for the addition of a new category/class to their certificate.

 

However, it appears that your stating that a school is mandating student solo flight with an instructor on-board when conducting Private Pilot training. This is contrary to the FARs as the provision for this activity is limited to Commercial Pilot level training only. 

 

​In my opinion...some CPL students will benefit from the "PIC" opportunity and some will need the "solo" experience. It really depends on the student...and it is the instructors responsibility to identify which solution is best for their students overall training program.

 

​Take care,

 

Randy Rowles



#10 Randy Rowles

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 17:52

Randy, he is only "required" to be on the flight because that school doesn't have enough confidence in :

a. the instructor's ability to assess if a student is safe to fly a sequence solo, and

b. the student's ability to fly a sequence solo.

 

Both of those reflect on the standards of the school. It is not an FAA requirement to have an instructor on board a "solo" flight, only that of the school.

 

This instructor is only sitting there as a sandbag, and should not have any input into the conduct of the flight, unless necessary to save the aircraft. Thus, he should not be logging any time at all, and shouldn't even be in the aircraft.

 

Eric,

 

I wouldn't comment on the "why" the instructor is sitting with student in a "PIC" scenario as described by 14 CFR Part 61.129©(4), only that it is permitted in the specific situation by Regulation.

 

As for a schools confidence in their instructional staff, I'm hopeful that your comment is not truly reflective of any training facilities belief that their instructional staff is anything less than competent to do their job. 

 

As for a school that requires an instructor to be on-board for student solo flights (other than as permitted by 61.129©(4), as described above), they are operating contrary to the Regulations. This activity should be brought to the attention of the FAA.

 

Thank you for your comments.

 

Randy Rowles 



#11 r22butters

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 18:20

You already need 100 hours PIC to get the rating. You already need 20 hours dual to get the rating.

How is 10 hours with a babysitter going to help?
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#12 r22butters

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 20:49

You know Randy, if the FAA really wants this experience to be representative of commercial work, then their should also be a requirement that the dual controls be removed!

Come to think of it, the instructor should be required to hold a camera and take pictures, since many first jobs/accidents involve photo flights.

Edited by r22butters, 07 May 2018 - 21:07.

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