Does your school hold you hostage???

[RkyMtnHI]

Hey Goldy, here we go again... another one of those questions!!

 

Lyn and I have been talking about this issue, and would like to know your opinions.

 

In my experience it seems that some flight schools hold everyone involved hostage with underlying threats and previous actions against their team. For instance, the new instructors know that if they make waves in any way they will be put on an invisible list that makes it difficult for them to acquire new students, either thru discovery flights or phone call-ins. (one flight school even states in the CFI packet that if you don’t corporate with the office staff you will not get a raise!!) It is already hard starting out as a new instructor, you need students to pay your bills and to build your hours and experience so you can move on. Some just barely make it to the point where they can teach financially, and NEED those students and flights to pay their bills. Just imagine having a loan payment of $1000 each month and no income. They realize that if they stand up for themselves, or for what is right, they may not have a future at all.. a very uncomfortable place to be in. Because of this they learn to keep their mouth shut and do what ever they are asked, even if they don’t agree. They are also told, by other higher time instructors at the school, that if they don’t keep a low profile and do what they are told they will be black-balled in the industry, making their future job hunts even more difficult.

 

I have seen the same with students. One instrument rated student that I know (now a CFI) was pressured into doing a revenue photo flight before he had his commercial. He flew off with the customer knowing it was wrong, and knowing that if he would have stood up any further (he tried to get out of it) it would have put him on that invisible list. I’m sure his mind was not on the flying that day, but on all the other issues he faced. It is also common knowledge that if a student speaks up about issues, their flights are constantly bumped from the schedule for others that are easier to get along with.

 

Another example that I have seen which disturbs me as much or more is the same treatment to aircraft owners. If an owner calls for money due to him because the school is late with payment, he is yelled at for not “working with the school” and his aircraft is grounded to “show him”. Instructors and students are told that if you fly that ship you can just forget about teaching or flying here. This puts the aircraft owner in a bigger hole financially and at risk for never recouping the back monies due. It also makes the instructors even more paranoid about speaking up about what is right or wrong… a very bad thing in my mind.

 

All of the above seriously affects the Safety Culture of a school. If the students and instructors are taught from the start that they cannot speak up without being punished then they just do not speak up at all. They all go about doing their own thing their own way and the students see this and emulate the whole process and bad things began to happen.

 

So, I promised you a question; Is this the norm in the industry? Do you see this at the school or schools you have trained or taught at? If so, how do you deal with it? Solutions?

 

I know LEAVING the school is an answer, but may not be an option for some (another reason the school operators have so much power).. Imagine moving to another State, with no money just to train at a school. You can’t afford to move again because you have not been paid for a month or more. The school has hired way too many instructors and none of them have enough students to pay their bills. It’s hard enough now to get an instructor job in the industry.. so you are stuck and rationalize that you have to make it work. What can you do?

 

Aloha,

 

dp

[ADRidge]

.. Imagine moving to another State, with no money just to train at a school. You can’t afford to move again because you have not been paid for a month or more. The school has hired way too many instructors and none of them have enough students to pay their bills. It’s hard enough now to get an instructor job in the industry.. so you are stuck and rationalize that you have to make it work. What can you do?

 

Aloha,

 

dp

 

That sounds oh so familiar. I don't have a good answer, but I know how that goes.

 

edit: hell, I'm considering finishing my degree in a non-aviation related industry and getting a 'real job' for this very reason. At least then I'd be qualified to work at starbucks.

Edited June 17, 2009 by ADRidge

[Tom22]

I agree that intimidating instructors/students will have a negative impact on the safety culture of the school. It is of the lowest order to leverage punishment on those that want to do what is right. This is especially if the punishment is a consequence of being compliant with regulations, statutes, or being safe. It sounds like people are actually condoning this practice of intimidation by being acquiescent. I would not be supine. Hanging around an environment like that might have negative future implications. Fortunately, I did not come across this in my training but it sounds like a very toxic situation.

[HelliBoy]

Solution: Personal Integrity. It'll continue unless enough people have it.

[Rick McWilliams]

The abuse of power is a culture. You must choose you staff well. The instructors will reflect the sense of fairness and safety attitudes of the management. Students will reflect their instructors. Careful guidance will allow you business to snowball into a positive place for all involved.

[rotormandan]

I have only trained at one school and worked at another so those 2 schools are my only experience as far as the flight training industry. What you say sounds pretty insane. I know some schools have a way of doing things and they should expect their instructors to conform to those ways. It is however unfortunate that some schools out there are a bit shady. It would be a tough spot to be in, to choose between what is right or to just deal with it and hopefully move on in a year.

 

As far as getting blackballed, I think that could go both ways. A cfi doesn't have to use that boss as a reference. I'm sure in a year or 2 of working they should be able to find other references. On the other hand it seems that the instructor could help to put out a bad name for that company as well. In my view it seems that is what you are doing whether intentional or not. I know you haven't stated any specific names of comnpanies but anyone who's been on here for any period of time knows who you've flown with.

 

As far as a school forcing a student to fly a commercial flight, that just has to be bs. I'm not calling you a liar but there has to be more to the story that we're not getting. Why would a school with commercially rated pilots, who have time on their hands because there's not enough students, not use an employee? Was it a flight that included a cfi in there as well as the student? Maybe no one was getting paid and the owner had a friend taking pictures? For a school who apparently only care about themselves, why would they risk an uninsured flight with such a rookie pilot?

 

If it gets as bad as you say then it seems that it would be better to leave. I know a laborer in construction, a bartender or waiter with tips are just a couple of entry level jobs that make more than a cfi. It would definately be a hard choice but it might be worth it to save some $ and look for another job at the same time. At the same time there most likely will only be a few bad points and it will be better to just deal with those few points and get through it. No one said that getting a start in this industry would be easy. It's unfortunate that some may have it harder than others.

[BOATFIXERGUY]

Wow DP, where did you go to school? Sounds like a place and people that I wouldn't want to be around.

 

As far as the industry black-balling you for not taking a revenue flight as a private pilot and crap like that, DON'T FALL FOR THAT! Once you're in the commercial world, little thought goes into the schools. Sure, if you piss off the wrong guy at school, and now they are at your future employer, they may, and I say may have some input into whether you get the job. But doubtful. They will still be an FNG. And no one in management cares about the new guys...just go out and do your job! Now if you get busted by the FAA for doing something illegal or unsafe, that's your own fault. AND THAT WILL FOLLOW YOU. YOU DO WHAT YOU THINK IS RIGHT. PERIOD.

 

Flights schools and commercial ops are soooooo far apart in terms of the world in which they live in. Once you're in the commercial world, you will hardly have time or the energy to think about flight school. It will only come up when you're sharing stories about how a student almost killed you one day...

 

You just train your students with honor and integrity. Teach them things that will help them make good decisions on the ground (most important) and in the air. The rest will take care of itself.

[azbirdman]

'Pahleazzze' tell me that is not the norm!!! Is Airola back in the biz? OMG...

[Hovergirl]

Wow! It's a small industry, and doesn't blackballing work both ways? How about "I was training at XX school but I had to leave it because they were pressuring me into breaking FAA regulations." If school YY hears that, especially from more than one student or from reliable people, that other school will, and should get a bad reputation. We've had our share of complaints on this forum, many of them exaggerated or unnecessary, but when a problem is real it should be brought out in the open.

 

Speaking as someone who hung out here for a while before NOT going to Silver State...

 

HVG

[RkyMtnHI]

As far as getting blackballed, I think that could go both ways. A cfi doesn't have to use that boss as a reference. I'm sure in a year or 2 of working they should be able to find other references. On the other hand it seems that the instructor could help to put out a bad name for that company as well. In my view it seems that is what you are doing whether intentional or not. I know you haven't stated any specific names of comnpanies but anyone who's been on here for any period of time knows who you've flown with.

 

This is a good point.. i should point out that i have trained and flew at five flight schools over the years. Only short periods of fixed wing training at most but helicopter at two. So my information does come from more than one spot.

 

As far as a school forcing a student to fly a commercial flight, that just has to be bs. I'm not calling you a liar but there has to be more to the story that we're not getting. Why would a school with commercially rated pilots, who have time on their hands because there's not enough students, not use an employee? Was it a flight that included a cfi in there as well as the student? Maybe no one was getting paid and the owner had a friend taking pictures? For a school who apparently only care about themselves, why would they risk an uninsured flight with such a rookie pilot?

 

I realize this sounds a little bizarre.. but it's absolutely true. There was no CFI, only a photographer and an instrument rated private pilot. I was there thru the whole thing. From others i have spoken with about the subject i understand that this is not so uncommon in the industry, especially in the past?? Is that true? Is this one of those unspoken things that people just don't talk about?

 

dp

[Darren Hughes]

Wow! It's a small industry, and doesn't blackballing work both ways? How about "I was training at XX school but I had to leave it because they were pressuring me into breaking FAA regulations." If school YY hears that, especially from more than one student or from reliable people, that other school will, and should get a bad reputation.

 

I agree with you Hovergirl. I worked at a school briefly where I was repeatedly asked to fly unsafe and not airworthy ships by the owner, who is a FAA Designated Mechanic Examiner. Having posted on here and some other forums anonymously asking for advice I came to the conclusion that I'd be better off cleaning toilets than flying for that guy, so I quit. At the time I asked for advice anonymously, because I was afraid of picking up a reputation of being a trouble maker within our small industry. But now I couldn't give a rats ass what this guy says about me, because I've since found out that he's the guy with the bad reputation.

 

There's a prudent way of steering people clear of such operations when they ask for your advice on what schools they should look to attend. You can point people in the right direction without dragging other peoples name through the mud, this method allows you to maintain your integrity while also keeping your reputation for discreetness within the industry. And there's the absolute right thing to do, be the whistleblower, the outspoken one, the person who has zero compromise when it comes to moral or legal issues. This method will certainly help forge a reputation for yourself, but there is only a handful of future employers who would reward such bravery.

 

At the end of the day, small businesses like flight schools have to walk a fine line between keeping their employees safe and remaining competitive. I'm sure there are many small business owners that would prefer not to, but have to bend the rules on occasion to "get the job done" or hold on to a contract. As employees we should try to look at situations from the employers point of view as well as our own and maybe try to help them come up with a better, safer solution.

 

My little rant may not be completely on topic here but it is something I remind myself of a lot as I am a former small business owner(non-aviation) who sold up to get into aviation.

[RkyMtnHI]

My little rant may not be completely on topic here but it is something I remind myself of a lot as I am a former small business owner(non-aviation) who sold up to get into aviation.

 

 

very well said, the whole post, and appreciated.

 

dp

[permison]

Sadly many company owners and senior staff hold a lot of power. There is some credence given to people in position of power regardless of history, ethic or performance. Just look at our government. If a seemingly successful flight school makes negative comments about a former instructor during a reference that instructor will probably not get hired. The school on the other hand will continue to operate regardless. Look at how many people complained about SSH? They were finally brought down not by external forces or investigations but from within with their bad practices and poor financial situation. I believe they even had a few fatalities that were investigated but deficiencies not resolved.

 

Another thing I have noticed is there is a lot of immaturity in this industry. There are lots of people whose only world experience is in aviation which is a whole different animal from the real world. Pilots have a tendency to be coddled and expect things that others would never expect. From a pilots perspective this makes perfect sense but from a normal run of the mill person, something like crew rest periods is a completely alien concept. Kids who go into aviation right out of high school find themselves running operations or even owning flight schools and their only management experience is what they learned either at their first aviation job or figuring it out as they go along. So if their experience has been safety is a buzz word, then they will play along but when it impacts their bottom line or when the chips are down they are going to push the envelope. The really difficult part of this is that in aviation peoples lives are on the line. How we resolve this I don’t know, but it is very common and needs to be addressed. But I would caution anyone to be careful when bringing this to light publicly to be prepared for a long and difficult fight no matter what industry.

 

Let me give you a personal story of example;

I found out a company I was working for (I was a senior manager) was engaged in criminal activity. This was a government project and I worked for the civilian contractor (sadly members of the government were involved as well). I was in a position of responsibility (but not knowledge) on projects where this criminal activity was taking place. When I found out about the criminal activity I immediately took action to stop it. When I was unable to resolve the issue from within (I went all the way to the president of the company) I then went to the government. While ultimately the issue was investigated and the guilty brought to justice, in the meantime my professional reputation was dragged through the mud. Professionally I was destroyed, I couldn’t get work, blew my savings, had to live on credit cards, lost my fiancée, and life really sucked for about two years (I even feared for my life once they found out who turned them in). When the justice finally came down on the guilty parties, I was given a small reward which was supposed to thank me for my service. It wasn’t near enough to recover both my financial and personal losses. I have recovered for the most part but it was not easy. I bring in over 6 figures; I can’t imagine having to deal with something like that on a CFI salary.

 

Publicly bad mouthing your previous employer, no matter how right you are, can bite you in the butt. I would suggest contacting the appropriate authority for the issue in question and getting an investigation started but do so anonymously if you can. Sadly the FAA is over worked and understaffed, what is worse is (like many in our government) many couldn’t find their way out of a empty room with a single door, a map, arrows on the wall, and a personal guide. But it is really your only choice if you find a problem. Don’t shoot me for saying this but there are good people in the FAA. Unfortunately it’s a crap shoot if you will get them to help. I recommend everyone network with their local FAA office or FSDO. Get to know the people over there. It will help you in many ways. If you run across safety or legal issues and you’re on first name basis with the local FAA office these issues can get resolved easily and quickly. If you’re wondering, I don’t work for the FAA, I am just a pilot like you guys. I’ve have a few things I don’t like about the FAA but when it comes to this type of stuff I am a big believer in what they do and how they can help.

 

This industry is very small, and your reputation will follow you. I am not in anyway suggesting that people not report illegal or unsafe activity, in fact I encourage it. I do want you to be aware of the potential issues if you do not handle it properly. You may think being the hero and all the name recognition that goes with it is great but it’s a lonely road fraught with peril. You need to be prepared to go it alone. Let the appropriate authority do the heavy lifting. After all that’s what the FAA gets paid to do.

[BOATFIXERGUY]

Good response Jack (permison)! I had a similar situation when I went after a public official (the chief of police) on behalf of others...It sucked for 4 years though, but I did earn the respect of others for doing it! The thing I can do everyday is look at myself in the mirror and be glad I have honor and integrity. I'm sure you feel the same way (about you, not me ).

[clay]

I wanna get me some of that honesty/Integrity you talk about. . . .sounds nice.

[BOATFIXERGUY]

I wanna get me some of that honesty/Integrity you talk about. . . .sounds nice.

 

From what I hear (and its not from some flight school), you already have it...

[clay]

From what I hear (and its not from some flight school), you already have it...

 

 

Who is spreading the VICIOUS rumors about me!?!?!?! joking, I appreciate the compliment

[permison]

From what I hear (and its not from some flight school), you already have it...

 

Oh good grief....he already knows he's a helicopter Pilot. No need to add to the ego. The helicopter Pilot community is the only place where you can actually weigh the ego. They had to create a new element....it's called Iamawsomium.

[BOATFIXERGUY]

Oh good grief....he already knows he's a helicopter Pilot. No need to add to the ego. The helicopter Pilot community is the only place where you can actually weigh the ego. They had to create a new element....it's called Iamawsomium.

HA!!! True...very true. Goldy and DP will knock him down a notch or two. I'm the balance in the equation.