Commercial and Instrument Training.

[thrilsekr]

My situation:

I have my private helicopter rating. Eventually I would like to go all the way through CFII.

The flight school I went to does not offer instrument training. Nor do they have an R44.

I am under the assumption that I can save a couple thousand dollars by doing the commercial and instrument training concurrently. Also put some of those hours into an R44 and I can be certified to be a CFII in an R22 and R44. This seems like the most cost effective way to achieve my goals and also makes me a better candidate for a job. Is my theory correct? What am I missing?

My real question is:

Do I start my commercial training locally and keep my job until a point where I would need to start the instrument training and also start getting some hours in the R44. Or do I wait for a bit longer, save a bit more money and move to somewhere that I can train more cost effectively, but have to find a new job?

 

And throw this in there too:

I paid cash for my private, and want to continue to pay cash. I do not have enough money saved up for even just a comm rating, and will not for at least another year.

I will have to be out of my current housing in the next couple of months (short sale). So I will have to move -somewhere- anyway.

If I move, I will need to find a new job, most likely one that does not pay as well as my current.

My current job pays well, but is slowly yet efficiently sucking the life out of me.

 

I know the aviation industry (as well as every industry) is in the pooper right now. But, I am also not the kind of guy who sits around and waits for something to happen. Wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which fills up first.

 

Thanks for yer support.

[Spike]

You need 100 hours of PIC time to qualify for the commercial. Rather than flying around burning holes in the sky, you mise-well put your money to good use and get the instrument cert. Most instrument programs hover around the 40 hour mark so you’ll have plenty of additional PIC time to build toward the commercial. For a prospective pro-helo-pilot, this is the way it’s done.

 

Lastly, if you’re low on cash, steer clear of the 44 and stick with the 22. Financially speaking, spending the extra cash on the 44 makes no sense.

[r22butters]

If you keep your job until you have the money for both the Comm/IFR, then maybe you can get your boss to give you a temporary, leave of absence, so you can go somewhere to train quickly (fly twice a day, every day,etc..). That's kinda what I did.

 

Instead of the R44, look for a place that has an R22 (glass cockpit) for IFR, or you can do the Com/IFR in an S300, then switch back to the R22 for CFi/ii.

 

Don't move for training, if you cannot find a good 'real' job, things can go very badly, very quickly.

[Inferno]

You can also do it in an r22 IFR (non-glass) ship. It all comes down to preference and cost, but doing comm before instrument makes no sense to me.

 

You can always do the 44 time after you get the commercial, or pick up time in it when you have a chance. If you do close to minimums, you should have 40 or more hours between your commercial and 200 hour mark to do the 44 time.

[01CelicaGTS]

I did most of my instrument in my commercial. It is a more cost effective way. Just make a list of everything that you need to complete your commercial, and plan everything in advance. If i had planned better I could have probably done all of my instrument in my commercial. I did about 30 hours out of 40. I also did it in the R22 non glass cockpit (cheaper). I wasted the first about 10-20 hours of my commercial, flying to known airports and flying in marginal weather and having to come back after 35-40 minutes, and not getting any XC time.

 

Doing it concurrently with your commercial is the most cost effective, but takes a little more time on your part. (You have to stay current/restudy the instrument stuff for the CFII test). Hope that helps.

[cellocopter]

You've got the right general idea. It's definitely most cost efficient to do the bulk of your instrument training while working toward your commercial requirements.

 

I'm going to offer a little different take on the R44 question than has been mentioned so far. If you're sure you want to get your 25 hours in the 44 to get the SFAR signoff, I would say do it during your commercial as well. You have to get the hours in one of the ships anyway, so your cost increase is just the difference between paying for the hours in the 22 versus the 44. If you're close to minimums like inferno mentioned, which unfortunately most of us weren't, then you can wait to build 44 time to hit the 200 hour mark. But if you're pushing 200 and you wait until later to build the 44 time, then well, you do the math. I built 44 time during commercial/instrument (saving a few hours to come back to the CFII) and I don't have any regrets.

 

In my opinion, the 44 is a much better platform for instrument training. It's quite a bit more stable during cruise. Establishing and maintaining a stabilized approach is also quite a bit easier than in the 22. The faster cruise also makes it possible to quicken the pace of a flight lesson and get more out of it as the student gains proficiency and is able to handle the increased workload. I preferred training in the 44 and now I prefer teaching in it. But, in the end, it all comes down to the money.

 

If you do decide you want to start your training locally and pick up the instrument and 44 hours a little later in your commercial somewhere else, I would suggest you have a plan for every hour you fly. It should all be x/c time to work toward the 50 you need for instrument. Also, try to work through the solo and night requirements. Just save yourself enough hours at the end to get the maneuvers back in shape.

 

Just another opinion. Hope you figure out something that works for you....

[lelebebbel]

whether or not you can do your instrument training in a R22 depends a lot on how much you weigh. The oldschool 11-hole panel R22s are very front-heavy, around 350-360 lbs in the cabin is usually all they can take. The glass panel ones are supposed to be better, but there aren't many of them around yet.

 

For the training, my advise would be to do the IFR all in one go and early during your comm training. That way you can do your IFR checkride, then have enough time to get back into VFR flying for your commercial checkride.

 

A lot of people try to do the comm and CFI checkride first and later combine the Instrument and CFII checkride. In my experience this is a bad idea, because it basically puts a huge break right in the middle of your instrument training and you'll forget everything.

[rick1128]

A lot of people try to do the comm and CFI checkride first and later combine the Instrument and CFII checkride. In my experience this is a bad idea, because it basically puts a huge break right in the middle of your instrument training and you'll forget everything.

 

I did it that way and it worked out quite well. In fact my Instrument and CFII checkrides were conducted at the same time. These were add-on rating for me, so that might have effected the outcome.

 

I would suggest that you look at this a little differently. If there is a school nearby that can do the instrument training, even if it is in some other type of helicopter, I would look strongly at that. Especially a 300. What that does for you, is gives you a whole other venue for your upcoming job search and increases your possibilities. Flight schools really don't like to hire instructors with only the minimum amount of flight time in type. If you do this, get an hour or so of just basic VFR training in the aircraft prior to starting the instrument training. That will make the rest of the training much easier.

[delorean]

And do as much of that instrument and x/c time at NIGHT. Get your night PIC time up, because you'll need 100+ in the EMS, and for the most part, won't be able to log any in the GOM or tour industry.

[brushfire21]

Compared to most of the posters here, I don't feel qualified at all to say anything. But with needing so many hours to teach in the RHC products (I believe its 200 hours, please correct me if I am wrong), why the rush to get the Instrument Time in early in the CPL portion?

 

I found that as a newly minted Private with my certificate to learn in hand, that going straight into instrument training would have been really hard and expensive as it would have taken longer in the more expensive ships. Holding altitudes, speed and heading would have been alot to deal with, and trying to learn GPS, VOR's and what not.

 

It has been my choice to do my instrument towards the end of my commercial or even after. I still have to build another 50-150 hours depending on insurance requirements to instruct and only then are you at the minimums, likelyhood of getting hired is minimal with only 300 hours. The more I fly and learn, the better my control gets and less thinking how to fly so I can then concentrate on dealing with the distractions of the instruments. Locally I have found a fairly inexpensive place has a 44 and I love flying it, so I am building my 44 hours early on with only a small price increase over a an r22/s300.

 

Also, isn't the 10-hour instrument requirement getting widdled down to 5-hours coming up in the next year or so and sim time still counts? I just feel that the more hours one has before taking the jump into instrument could actually save them money in the bigger picture.

[cellocopter]

Those changes are already in effect. You have to get them off of the electronic CFRs since they happened after the last FAR/AIM was published:

 

61.129

 

(i) Five hours on the control and maneuvering of a helicopter solely by reference to instruments using a view-limiting device including attitude instrument flying, partial panel skills, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, and intercepting and tracking navigational systems. This aeronautical experience may be performed in an aircraft, flight simulator, flight training device, or an aviation training device;

 

 

In my experience, starting the instrument training somewhat early in the commercial is actually a benefit to overall flying skills and ability to handle the aircraft more precisely. I don't believe waiting 100 hours or so will make it any easier since it is a new skill set that needs to be developed anyway. Always interested in more differing opinions....

[r22butters]

Compared to most of the posters here, I don't feel qualified at all to say anything. But with needing so many hours to teach in the RHC products (I believe its 200 hours, please correct me if I am wrong), why the rush to get the Instrument Time in early in the CPL portion?

 

I found that as a newly minted Private with my certificate to learn in hand, that going straight into instrument training would have been really hard and expensive as it would have taken longer in the more expensive ships. Holding altitudes, speed and heading would have been alot to deal with, and trying to learn GPS, VOR's and what not.

 

It has been my choice to do my instrument towards the end of my commercial or even after. I still have to build another 50-150 hours depending on insurance requirements to instruct and only then are you at the minimums, likelyhood of getting hired is minimal with only 300 hours. The more I fly and learn, the better my control gets and less thinking how to fly so I can then concentrate on dealing with the distractions of the instruments. Locally I have found a fairly inexpensive place has a 44 and I love flying it, so I am building my 44 hours early on with only a small price increase over a an r22/s300.

 

Also, isn't the 10-hour instrument requirement getting widdled down to 5-hours coming up in the next year or so and sim time still counts? I just feel that the more hours one has before taking the jump into instrument could actually save them money in the bigger picture.

 

The Instrument Rating is something you'll probably never use. Unfortunatly, some moron declared that it "makes you a better pilot", which is just a bunch of BS! So, of course, now pretty much no one will hire you without it (even if the job is in a VFR ONLY Ship!) .

 

The reason to get it before the Commercial, is that you need 150hrs to get that, so its either get the IR,or just rent, and fly for fun, which will make it more expencive, since now at 150hrs you still need the IR.

 

Although, I guess since 300hrs is the new 200, you may as well wait?

 

I took some time off after my Private, and just flew around recreationaly. When I went back for my Instrument/Commercial, I did find it a little easier, since I now had some experience (and more confidence) from flying on my own.

[BOATFIXERGUY]

And do as much of that instrument and x/c time at NIGHT. Get your night PIC time up, because you'll need 100+ in the EMS, and for the most part, won't be able to log any in the GOM or tour industry.

 

Couldn't agree more! And I'll add: You'll also need at least 50 hours X/C night. Do all of your instrument time at night and x-country. You'll be under the hood anyway. Your CFI will appreciate it, as they will also be building that much needed night time for later in life.

 

I have several friends with over 2500 hours but almost zero night and night x/c time. They are stuck in the GOM with no end in sight.

 

Note for all of you working CFI's: Train your comm/instrument students at night!

[Shaun]

The Instrument Rating is something you'll probably never use. Unfortunatly, some moron declared that it "makes you a better pilot", which is just a bunch of BS!

 

There are hundreds and hundreds of fatal accidents that could have been prevented had the pilot been instrument rated.

 

This is a great article about the dangers of IMC flight.

 

http://www.morningtonsanfordaviation.com/articles/enough%20skill.html

 

The potential for inadvertent IMC will always exist especially if you fly over water and/or at night. I would rather be instrument rated and avoid situations conducive to IMC in an un-equipped aircraft.

 

 

"The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) determined that the probable cause of the crash was pilot error: "Kennedy's failure to maintain control of the airplane during a descent over water at night, which was a result of spatial disorientation." Kennedy was not qualified to fly a plane by "instruments only.""

[scottw]

Contact Specialized Helicopters located in Watsonville, CA. You can do your instrument training in an R22 and save a significant amount of money.

[Inferno]

Exactly. This is an argument that has been beaten to death, but i gurantee you will be kicking yourself for trying to save $2k when you get into that iIMC and go into an unrecoverable unusual attitude.....

 

Honestly, consider it cheep life insurance if that makes you feel better. Just do the instrument rating. You will be a better pilot (yes, even starting out at 45 hours) and you will be a lot more comfortable talking with ATC, to name a few benefits.

 

Oh ya, and most all jobs want you to get it! Not getting an instrument ticket is like training, deciding to not get a CFI ticket, and trying to go the commercial route to 1000 hours. Good luck! Honestly butters, i cannot understand why you are so against it. It seems like a win win for a student.

 

There are hundreds and hundreds of fatal accidents that could have been prevented had the pilot been instrument rated.

 

This is a great article about the dangers of IMC flight.

 

http://www.morningtonsanfordaviation.com/articles/enough%20skill.html

 

The potential for inadvertent IMC will always exist especially if you fly over water and/or at night. I would rather be instrument rated and avoid situations conducive to IMC in an un-equipped aircraft.

 

 

"The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) determined that the probable cause of the crash was pilot error: "Kennedy's failure to maintain control of the airplane during a descent over water at night, which was a result of spatial disorientation." Kennedy was not qualified to fly a plane by "instruments only.""

[r22butters]

Couldn't agree more! And I'll add: You'll also need at least 50 hours X/C night. Do all of your instrument time at night and x-country. You'll be under the hood anyway. Your CFI will appreciate it, as they will also be building that much needed night time for later in life.

 

I have several friends with over 2500 hours but almost zero night and night x/c time. They are stuck in the GOM with no end in sight.

 

Note for all of you working CFI's: Train your comm/instrument students at night!

 

Don't be in too much of a hurry to build all that night time. I have over 250hrs night, about 150 is night cc, and it hasn't helped me one bit, so like everything else, it won't matter until you have a fat logbook.

 

For all you CFi's who want to train under the hood at night. Bring plenty of vomit bags!

[Shaun]

For all you CFi's who want to train under the hood at night. Bring plenty of vomit bags!

 

I've trained all of my instrument students at night without any problems, one huge advantage is that the airports are empty so you can do approaches rapidly. During the day it was not uncommon to spend half the lesson being vectored around to wait our turn.

 

During the day it's pretty easy for the student to see the ground out of the corner of the hood or take queues from the sun and shadows, night is the closest you can get to actual IFR.

[Hawkeye0001]

For all you CFi's who want to train under the hood at night. Bring plenty of vomit bags!

 

Hrhr, at least for the first IFR flights My first unusual attitude training was at night and I almost threw up. Went on like this until dawn. But as with everything you'll get used to it really quick and the second time wasn't a big deal anymore. It wouldn't be any different, if you have to recover the same unusual attitude under real IFR conditions. Just regard it as a valuable (realistic?) part of your training

[Pohi]

I've trained all of my instrument students at night without any problems, one huge advantage is that the airports are empty so you can do approaches rapidly. During the day it was not uncommon to spend half the lesson being vectored around to wait our turn.

 

During the day it's pretty easy for the student to see the ground out of the corner of the hood or take queues from the sun and shadows, night is the closest you can get to actual IFR.

 

I agree. Night can be the best time to do instrument training. Sometimes, despite all of the efforts to teach a student how to fly the right way(because, of course being able to fly in IMC may save their lives), there are those completely ignorant (or the dreaded "R" word) students that refuse to learn how to fly by reference to instruments only. It would be nice to jam a pencil in the throat of all the students who would try to talk to about all the cool things they were watching on the ground or in the air while they were supposed to be under the hood, but there would be too much explaining to do.

 

I pretty much got to the point that I can encourage students to learn the skills to keep themselves alive when things get crappy, but I am not really that willing to force them to do night flights in an effort to make them learn.

 

1. I would rather have somewhat of a life, and not spend all night with these people.

2. Darwinism has to take effect at some time.

[R22139RJ]

 

 

I pretty much got to the point that I can encourage students to learn the skills to keep themselves alive when things get crappy, but I am not really that willing to force them to do night flights in an effort to make them learn.

 

1. I would rather have somewhat of a life, and not spend all night with these people.

2. Darwinism has to take effect at some time.

 

Pohi, you present a valid point. Pilots may not think the instrument ticket is worth getting and there may be those who think they will add the instrument rating just so it looks good on a resume, bring up flight training issues.

 

Its disheartening that a student would try to give themselves a leg up by using outside references when we are training for conditions where that will be impossible. The largest downfall is that this certificate could give someone the ability but not the skill to risk other people's lives. If only we could beat the students into submission. I go with the reply, "I can't see anything down there, Im in the F****** clouds." I find myself speechless when i hear the phrases, "Look at that sweet house," "Traffic in Sight," or my personal favorite, "We're on the PAPI."

 

Due to circumstances out of my control, I ended up getting my instrument time done, but not taking the checkride until after my CFI. It worked well for me. As i was brushing up my ground knowledge for the Instrument Checkride, I concurrently wrote outlines and studied as if it was my CFII and got my CFII ticket about a week after my instrument.

 

Good luck.

[Trans Lift]

Don't be in too much of a hurry to build all that night time. I have over 250hrs night, about 150 is night cc, and it hasn't helped me one bit, so like everything else, it won't matter until you have a fat logbook.

 

Totally disagree. Fat logbook or not, it will count a lot down the road. Training students at night is giving them that bit of an extra step up on the ladder. Every hour counts!

 

Private, Instrument, Commercial, CFI, CFII. The best, most efficiant way to go. End of story!

[Goldy]

Locally I have found a fairly inexpensive place has a 44 and I love flying it,

 

 

I knew you would come back from the dark side my friend.