Running T/Os discussion

[kodoz]

Was flying on Tuesday, and for takeoffs we had to slide on the skids until we hit translational lift.

 

Try not to make a habit of that. If you cannot hover, its usually not a good idea to takeoff.

 

Discuss (in terms of performance and ADM): why isn't it a good idea? Assume your average

 

If it's not a good idea, why are PPL and CPL students out learning running take offs?

 

Okay, operationally. I go out with my student on a hot day to a high airport where we take on just enough fuel to get home. I can pick the helicopter up--just barely--but when we start moving forward, the toe of my left skid is tap-tap-tapping the ground. Should I face the rage of my CP for having to park the heli for 2 lesson blocks, or am I good to go? Is there anything I could have done to avoid this dilemma?

[JDHelicopterPilot]

Good topic. It's a tough one. More than one accident has happened following a running take off. Here is an example:

 

Big Bear Airport, elevation 6752', summer so it's high, hot and your heavy. Heavy even though you've left off as much weight you can. Look at the performace and figure well, I can't hover so I'll give a running take off a try. Off goes the pilot, sliding along the ground, gets ETL and is able to get it off the ground and starts a slow climb.

 

Looking good huh? The climb isn't fast enough to clear the mountains so said pilot starts a climbing turn. Whoops, in the turn airspeed is lost, ETL is lost and a loss of what little altitude he gained. Unable to recover the pilot impacts the ground.

 

Here is the problem. In some cases a running take off is fine and can be done safely to get the flight going. However, the pilot has to think of all the factors and see that not only he has the power to pull it off but the room and terrian once airborne to be able to continue a slow climb. ADM at it's finest.

 

 

I didn't spend much time teaching the running take off but did because it is a tool that can be used is some limited situations. More focus was placed on running landings as that is often required for some emergency proceedures.

[Pohi]

 

If it's not a good idea, why are PPL and CPL students out learning running take offs?

 

 

 

I believe the PTS states the running take offs are for helicopter with wheel landing gear.

 

E. TASK: ROLLING TAKEOFF

NOTE: This TASK applies only to helicopters equipped with wheel-type

landing gear.

 

People do teach it, but then of course, people teach (or demonstrate) lots of things that they shouldn't.

[lelebebbel]

 

Okay, operationally. I go out with my student on a hot day to a high airport where we take on just enough fuel to get home. I can pick the helicopter up--just barely--but when we start moving forward, the toe of my left skid is tap-tap-tapping the ground. Should I face the rage of my CP for having to park the heli for 2 lesson blocks, or am I good to go? Is there anything I could have done to avoid this dilemma?

 

 

By doing this, you would teach the student:

 

1) Bad flight planning is ok, because you can always push the limits to make it home somehow

 

2) When you have made a bad decision (i.e. landing where you can't take off), don't admit it and face the consequences.

Instead, follow it up with another bad decision (i.e. a sketchy take off with insufficient performance margin)

 

3) Commercial pressure (from the CP) is more important than safety, and

 

4) the CP will be more concerned about hours flown than about safety.

 

 

Sounds like a good lesson?

Edited August 14, 2010 by lelebebbel

[Eric Hunt]

Have a look at your flight manual, it might just show that the performance graphs are all predicated on an IGE hover.

 

If you can't hover, don't bother.

 

Having said that, though, there may be situations where it is a life-and-death to get out of your location RFN (Right F***n NOW!) and a running takeoff may be the only way to do it. But with students, very easy to catch the toe and get into trouble.

 

If you are a charter and your load means you don't have IGE hover, your insurance company may just refuse cover. Then YOU are liable for any costs because you did not obey the flight manual.

[kodoz]

Say I successfully make the departure, clear some obstructions, and am flying along fine over level terrain. Now my clutch light comes on and stays on. How's this going to work out for me?

 

Sounds like a good lesson?

I especially like the ADM aspect of this type of scenario--nobody ever boasts about deciding not to do a flight or to sit on the ground, but I've heard plenty of first-hand accounts where CFIs have pushed an A/C's limits to get home. In every case I can think of, there was some sort of external pressure driving the CFI's decision. For a student, all the ground school in the world doesn't have nearly the effect that their CFI's example has.

 

That said, both JD and Eric point out that it's taught because it's a tool that's useful/necessary for some scenarios. Because it entails some risk, putting that tool to work requires good ADM to back it up.

[clay]

Say I successfully make the departure, clear some obstructions, and am flying along fine over level terrain. Now my clutch light comes on and stays on. How's this going to work out for me?

 

 

You've burnt off fuel and therefore are within limits. No biggie.

 

As far as teaching running landings; I'd say that not teaching them is more harmful to a student than teaching them. First off, it is a more advanced maneuver and there for teaches more finess. GOOD THING TO KNOW. If your flying at high DA's, you can be within limits and still have to do a running takeoff.

 

Ok. I said first off, but that's all I got for now. TEACH IT. It's a tool.

[Gomer Pylot]

The only time I've done running takeoffs on skids was in the military. Sometimes it's necessary, as the lesser of the many evils. If you need to get troops out of a hot LZ, and people are shooting at you with intent to kill you, you get off any way you can, and don't worry about the load. You do what you have to do to stay alive. In the civilian world, nobody is shooting at you, at least most of the time, and you should never, ever take off if you can't hover. It's simply stupid, because if you can't hover, you can't stop in the event of engine failure or other problems requiring a landing. You will bend metal. Practicing takeoffs using minimum power is an acceptable training technique in that it teaches smoothness, but you don't do it by sliding on the skids, you hover and then take off using no more than hover power. I've practiced rolling takeoffs on wheeled aircraft, but it's not an accepted method under Part 135. The usual rule is that if you can't hover you don't take off, and doing it should be a life or death matter.

[Mikemv]

To All, it has been said a few times in previous posts and I totally agree, "If you do not have sufficient power to hover", with a minimum reserve, DO NOT ATTEMPT A RUNNING TAKEOFF!

 

That said, there is a reason for teaching the maneuver using less than hover power.(recips, 1" to 2" below hover power)(turbines 10% to 15% less Q) It is to develop pilot technique for use in the real world operations of aircraft with small amounts of reserve power available. As a takeoff is initiated and the lift vector changes, the aircraft may settle while beginning forward movement towards ETL. It is important to have the skills to keep the skids aligned with the direction of movement and know that even upon touching the ground slightly that continued flight is possible!

 

Now let me mention that Gov ops/OAS require a 10% reduction from calculated allowable load for given performance elements. We should all have some personal standards for reserve power margins(Maybe 2" MP or 15% Q)or similar as self chosen/situation dependent.

 

I discuss helicopter performance in my Seminars as it is an area of weakness/lack of understanding in many pilots.

 

Valid ADM processes should apply, "It is not a contest"!

 

Fly safe,

 

Mike

[Tarantula]

You've burnt off fuel and therefore are within limits. No biggie.

 

As far as teaching running landings; I'd say that not teaching them is more harmful to a student than teaching them. First off, it is a more advanced maneuver and there for teaches more finess. GOOD THING TO KNOW. If your flying at high DA's, you can be within limits and still have to do a running takeoff.

 

Ok. I said first off, but that's all I got for now. TEACH IT. It's a tool.

 

Thanks for that clay. We definitely were within the limits. I'll discuss with my CFI some more about if we needed to do them, when you should do them, and when you should call a flight off instead.

Edited August 14, 2010 by Tarantula

[r22butters]

Damn? Make one little comment, and start another huge debate.

 

Well, here's how I heard it. If you cannot hover you are too heavy for the conditions (hot day, high DA, whatever). That means that you will be putting unnecessary stress on a lot of parts which "may not take to kindly to it".

 

Its just like when you pull more power than you're allowed. You may get away with it today, but down the road some poor unsuspecting shmuck may just be cruising around with his girlfriend, when the blades suddenly fly off!

 

Check out Robinson Safety Notice 37. They also talk about it at the safety course. I realize the original poster was flying an S300, but I was under the impression that pushing the performance envelope was bad for any aircraft?

 

As for running takeoffs in general, you can still use them to help keep crap from obscurring your vision when taking off from loose sand, durt, or snow.

[apiaguy]

I can't understand what your saying butters.... are you saying that if you're too heavy to hover then you're putting unnecessary stress on the helicopter if you try a running t/o?...I hope not cause that would be total crap.

I also don't understand the pushing the performance envelope statement... as long as your inside the envelope your not pushing anything except your own piloting skills.

 

I also can't understand clay's statement about burning off fuel and being ok... do you mean that you're safe now because you got off the ground and now you've burned some fuel and might be ok if you have an emergency?

 

Am I missing something here...

 

Running take offs may not be the smartest thing to commit to if you don't have to but I would contest it is a good maneuver to learn and utilize if necessary. You might be able to hover but not continuously (as usually happens at the hover ceiling) you pick up and settle back down... If you have the room to commence a running take off I see it as no difference as an airplane taking off. Isn't that why we practice running landings? So when the running take off can't gain enough altitude we do a running landing? (ok a little jest in that statement).

 

In piston powered helicopters where we don't have much extra margin I think it can be a useful tool. (and not that dangerous... or at least no more dangerous than other heli ops).

 

If I go on a trip in my piston machine and land at a high altitude strip and need fuel to make it back toward home and I can't drop anything else off (besides my passenger) I would do a running take off if I can.

[Trans Lift]

As for running takeoffs in general, you can still use them to help keep crap from obscurring your vision when taking off from loose sand, durt, or snow.

 

I hope you were joking with this statement too. As if you would want to be doing a running t/o through soft, loose sand or snow!

[Pohi]

 

If I go on a trip in my piston machine and land at a high altitude strip and need fuel to make it back toward home and I can't drop anything else off (besides my passenger) I would do a running take off if I can.

 

A pilot who fails to plan to such an extent that they find themselves in such a position does not deserve a piston machine or a certificate to fly said piston machine.

 

Edit...

 

And as an added bonus, the passenger should feel blessed to not have their life threatened by another persons incompetence.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Pohi

[apiaguy]

haha.. I love the "i'm a superior pilot" attitude that some like to bless me with. You never know how conditions might change to make the above senario a reality... are you really gonna not try a safe maneuver because you somehow feel that this maneuver has NO merit except in a life/death situation.

[clay]

I meant that if you can get the skids off the ground, but it won't climb vertical, and you do a running takeoff (assuming you are within aircraft limits)

 

1) you will be able to conduct emergency procedures. Whoever says an aircraft cannot perform emergency procedures at or near max gross weight lied to you.

 

2) And as far as all the comments about poor flight planning, your just plain ole' wrong. To say someone doesn't deserve their pilots license? Well that's just silly. I can bring you where I trained at sea level. WELL under max gross weight, inside the performance charts and show you an "a" model Enstrom that plain out won't fly unless you use a running takeoff. Does that mean I planned wrong and don't deserve my ticket? I can then go up to Denver and show you a 300 in the same position.

 

I'm not saying that these are everyday maneuvers, or that they are used often, or you should use them regularly.. But the knowledge of how one is performed, and the skills to do it are extremely valuable. I don't use them offshore, but I still learned them and I think I could still manage one if needed. It's each pilots own decision whether or not to attempt a running takeoff/ landing. But as a CFI, I don't think it's my right to withhold a tool from a student that may use it in the future because I don't think it's safe. I will teach them as safe as possible and hope they make the right decision down the road if need be. back to the original post, your at an airport. On a runway. Do your running takeoff and go home.

Edited August 16, 2010 by clay

[Tarantula]

clay, that's exactly what it was doing. We could pick up a few feet, but would start settling over the next 10-20 seconds or so.

[kodoz]

...as long as you're inside the envelope you're not pushing anything except your own piloting skills.

This is basically what many others have said. The limits should be easy to agree on (since they're hard numbers or lines on a graph). What varies is how close to those lines we'll get, and that depends on our individual situation. I couldn't find anything in the R22 POH that didn't say I couldn't pick up into a 1" hover, push forward, and scoot along the ground until I had Vy. Likewise, nothing says we can't fly right up to the performance limits of our aircraft, but to do so entails additional risk/skill/training/whatever, and leaves us with fewer options if something doesn't go as planned. (That goes for W&B, performance, H/V, WX minimums, aeromedical factors, etc...)

 

...the knowledge of how one is performed, and the skills to do it are extremely valuable...as a CFI...I will teach them...and hope they make the right decision down the road....

 

That was the whole idea behind this thread: when I learned running landings, I got the part about using them under power-limited situations. What that didn't come with was a disclaimer that a running landing entails additional risk, or an ADM lesson on what goes into weighing those risks. Without that part, the student's not getting the info he needs to make the right decision. I think others have already hit some of the main risks, but what about:

Is there anything I could have done to avoid this dilemma?

 

Now let me mention that Gov ops/OAS require a 10% reduction from calculated allowable load for given performance elements. We should all have some personal standards for reserve power margins(Maybe 2" MP or 15% Q)or similar as self chosen/situation dependent.

 

So...build in a margin based on the pilot, aircraft, environment, and mission. In my original scenario, maybe I shouldn't have taken a tubby student in the crappiest helicopter on the flight line up, in the middle of a dead-calm day, to an airport that was going to put me within X,XXX' of my HIGE limits. Or maybe I just got unlucky and it was warmer than forecast.

 

I also wanted to think about some numbers behind the idea that having burnt off fuel would make it possible to return to land if you made a running takeoff and had a land-immediately situation on departure. Just using the HOGE as a guide for where you can land...An R22 Beta at 5800 MSL, +35C, and MGW would be right at it's HIGE limit. After departing under those conditions, returning to land, you'd want to be around 1260 lbs--about 100 lbs lighter--to attempt a normal landing.

[Pohi]

haha.. I love the "i'm a superior pilot" attitude that some like to bless me with. You never know how conditions might change to make the above senario a reality... are you really gonna not try a safe maneuver because you somehow feel that this maneuver has NO merit except in a life/death situation.

 

certainly not. I am just not going to teach maneuvers that are not in the PTS because I think that they may be valuable. I guess I just don't think I know more than the FAA does.

 

There are lots of things out there that would be great to know but there is a list of required elements for a reason.

 

How about this question.... who here has ever had to do a running takeoff, and why?

[Trans Lift]

Hey Pohi, have you ever even met anyone from the FAA? Most of them don't have a clue about helicopter operations. If you are not teaching maneuver like running take-offs, etc that might not get examined in a checkride then you are not doing the student a good service in my opinion.

 

Students need to learn to fly outside of the PTS, outside of the box, this is what prepares them for the real world. You don't have to do a touchdown auto for your commercial checkride but wold you rather your students to have done at least one or two. I know I would!

[Mikemv]

To Pohi, stated with respect, the Rotorcraft Flying Handbook has a section on Running/Rolling takeoffs. This is an FAA publication and meant to be taught/discussed with students about techniques for the purposes I stated in previous response. Also, to All, please understand that the PTS is a Testing Standard and not a limit to training! Many techniques/practices for true helicopter operations are not tested by the PTS. In my Seminars I point out many of them as deficiencies in the Industry's training methods and make clear the reason and use of such. Some of us are working within the industry to get the PTS upgraded/changed to included some Scenario Based Training ASAP and then make a swithch from maneuvers based training to SBT. Best to all, Mike

[Pohi]

Hey Pohi, have you ever even met anyone from the FAA? Most of them don't have a clue about helicopter operations. If you are not teaching maneuver like running take-offs, etc that might not get examined in a checkride then you are not doing the student a good service in my opinion.

 

Students need to learn to fly outside of the PTS, outside of the box, this is what prepares them for the real world. You don't have to do a touchdown auto for your commercial checkride but wold you rather your students to have done at least one or two. I know I would!

 

Yes, I know pretty much everybody that works at the local office pretty well.

 

I did all of my training 141, and teach the same way. There is an approved syllabus for a reason, in my humble opinion. I just do not feel that I should take liberties and teach maneuvers that are outside the scope just because it would be neat for a student to learn.

 

They used to teach low G in the Robinson, air restarts, and several other things that are not taught anymore that could also be great things to know how to do.

 

A lot of people teach things in a lot of different ways, I just choose to teach by the book.

[clay]

Yes, I know pretty much everybody that works at the local office pretty well.

 

I did all of my training 141, and teach the same way. There is an approved syllabus for a reason, in my humble opinion. I just do not feel that I should take liberties and teach maneuvers that are outside the scope just because it would be neat for a student

 

It has nothing to do with being "neat". It has to do with providing your students as many usefull tools as you can. By teaching strictly to the PTS you are basically saying you teach the minimum amount required to get a license. Does that make for a safe pilot?

[r22butters]

I hope you were joking with this statement too. As if you would want to be doing a running t/o through soft, loose sand or snow!

 

I heard that on a Sporty's video. I've never actually been in a situation to try it.

 

My feelings on running takeoffs is simple. If you can't hover, that's the helicopter telling you "I'm too heavy, lose some weight butthead!" , so I wouldn't do a running takeoff!

 

However, if a hord of Zombies has just crashed through the fence, and is headed your way, and you're overloaded with Hot Chicks, and therefore can't hover, go ahead and run it off.

 

Just remember, if you can't hover, you don't DO a running takeoff, you ATTEMPT a running takeoff. You might not make it!

 

And what happens if you have to abort quickly? You're too low for a Quick Stop, and if you lower the collective too fast, you'll probably roll over!

[Tarantula]

To Pohi, stated with respect, the Rotorcraft Flying Handbook has a section on Running/Rolling takeoffs. This is an FAA publication and meant to be taught/discussed with students about techniques for the purposes I stated in previous response. Also, to All, please understand that the PTS is a Testing Standard and not a limit to training! Many techniques/practices for true helicopter operations are not tested by the PTS. In my Seminars I point out many of them as deficiencies in the Industry's training methods and make clear the reason and use of such. Some of us are working within the industry to get the PTS upgraded/changed to included some Scenario Based Training ASAP and then make a swithch from maneuvers based training to SBT. Best to all, Mike

 

Mikemv,

That's a great point. Even the Rotorcraft Flying Handbook states that running or rolling takeoffs should not be done if a hover can't be achieved at least momentarily. Which, in my case that started this discussion, was able to be done. So lets amend the discussion to, is a running/rolling takeoff an acceptable maneuver to do, when you can't sustain a hover, but can still obtain a hover briefly?