How hard do you have to work for feedback?

[ADRidge]

I'm working on my CFII right now, and I'm having some issues with my instructor. Basically, I cannot for the life of me get any real feedback from him. When the flight is done, he hops on his iPhone and talks to his buddies about his next job. During the flight, I may get a small critique, but most of the time he just talks about how he cannot wait to move on, and how he's sick of teaching.

 

Even when I prod him, I can't get any news about my overall progress. I can make some educated guesses as to my progress, but I'm not the one recommending me for an initial CFI ride. I understand the standard for your flight instructor ratings is perfection, and I'm fine with that. It'd just be nice to hear from someone that I am or am not making progress.

 

Anyway, I'm mainly just venting. But I am curious to hear from others if they ever have/had any issues with figuring out their progress, and at what point a person should consider trying a different flight instructor or a different school.

 

I really hate to make waves, and I definitely don't want to burn any bridges, but it's really wearing on me.

Edited April 12, 2011 by ADRidge

[AStarB3]

First think about how much more progress you would be making if you where being taught and not just monitored. Also if you are working on your CFII he should be doing most of the flying and you should be critiquing him. If you really feel there is a problem you should have a frank conversation with him and tell him you feel that you require a more involved style of instruction. If he refuses to change speak to the chief instructor.

[rodrop]

Have a crucial conversation. Most of us are like you, we dont want to make waves. So, if you can't find a diplomatic in direct way to do it, you have to step up and speak up. Good luck, I am sure you may be uncomfortable at first, but it will pay off in the end.

[Trans Lift]

Man, I would be sorting that out before you pay him any more money for his time. Have a talk about the way you feel and if that does not work then have a chat with the Chief. It is not acceptable, not one little bit.

I don't care what his next job is going to be, he has a job to do now and that is what he should be focused on.

[captkirkyota]

Man, I would be sorting that out before you pay him any more money for his time. Have a talk about the way you feel and if that does not work then have a chat with the Chief. It is not acceptable, not one little bit.

I don't care what his next job is going to be, he has a job to do now and that is what he should be focused on.

 

AMEN! and if talking w/him doesn't work, then the chief, if the chief even cares a little he'll thank you for the heads up that someone who is supposed to represent the place that he wants more students to come spend money with is doing a piss poor job and set him straight AND get you a different instructor, and you'll look good. I work every job I've ever had with 100% enthusiasm till the very last moment I work for them, that guys attitude is unsat, you need to get what you are paying for, and he needs to earn what the school is allowing him to make while in their employ.

[rotorpower]

I had the same issue when I started and hated my 1st instructor for the same reasons and more, so I did not hesitate to switch. Remember, you are spending a lot of money to learn to fly these things, so dont think twice about making a change. Just my opinion.

[Mikemv]

I think he has demonstrated that it is already to late to be your Instructor. Dump him now and get an educator that cares.

 

The fact that you posted this here shows you are serious about your training, education and career.

 

Best wishes,

 

Mike

[Shaun]

My II instructor was the same way, did not teach me anything, wanted to fly over his house rather than do approaches, would charge me for briefings and not do them.

 

But I wanted to get hired and he was part of the good old boys management for whom making waves meant no job.

 

How juiced in is your instructor? The higher ups may not like him either and you may endear yourself by replacing him.

[kodoz]

Fire him. Seriously, I ran into a guy who asked me to explain some things, which I did. He told me he was an active learner, so I addressed that, gave him some "homework" and sent him on his way. His parting comment was "This is what I've been asking my instructor to do all along!"

[Rat]

This hard nose attitude towards students is unprofessional to say the least. Students need postive reinforcement.This yelling, cursing, or not giving your student feedback should not be tolerated. People with attitudes like this will not make it in the industry, at least not working for reputable companies. I agree with kodoz lose him immediately.

[Wally]

He's not teaching you anything if there's no critique. You've wasted enough money, he's along for the ride on your dime.

[warmkiter]

Teaching is about transfering knowledge. How do you think your instructor is doing that? By gestures? Smoke signs?

 

If you do one hour groundschool with a new instructor, you can really easily say if he is any good in the cockpit. If he cant explain stuff on the whiteboard, he cant in the cockpit either. Whitout good communication there is no learning!

 

Being an flightinstructor is not about being a safetypilot, its about teaching!

 

If your instructor takes the Iphone out after the flight and before the debrief is done, make sure he gets kicked. Enough other guys looking for a job with a lot more dedication.

 

Besides, this is also about your professionality. Where do you set your standarts? If you think its ok to be teached like that, then thats your standart for later. Aim as high as you can and start as soon as you can. Even as a student your professionality should always aim to do the job as good as you can. Now your job is to learn, maybe later to teach.

 

We all learn different, but nobody will learn anything without feedback. Why do the same mistakes again and again, if your instructor can easily correct and guide you to the right path.

 

He is just wasting your money, time and airspace.

 

Good luck

[arotrhd]

X5 on what has been previously stated. I would have a very open and serious talk with my instructor if this was happening, and I would follow it up with the CP/owner. Goals and expectations should be clear on every flight - if you are not getting thumps and bumps on the back of your head, or claw marks after an instructed flight, look for a new instructor. Instruction is not only about skills and knowledge, but ultimately survival. Treat it as such.

 

-WATCH FOR THE PATTERNS, WATCH FOR THE WIRES-

[Mikemv]

This is what the modern FITS SBT Methodology would bring,

 

Learner Centered Grading (LCG) includes two parts: By the Pilot in training, a learner self assessment and then a detailed debrief by the flight instructor. The purpose of the self assessment is to stimulate growth in the learner’’s thought processes and, in turn, behaviors.

 

The self-assessment is followed by an in- depth discussion between the instructor and the pilot in training which compares the instructor ratings to the pilot in training’’s self-assessment.

 

Training in these tenets apply to all pilots and all aircraft. This could be airplanes or simulators or ground instruction.

 

Find yourself an interested CFI as all have recommended.

 

Mike

[Phrogdriver]

I understand you may have no choice dealing with this "instructor". Damn shame you have to but it is a reality that sometimes we can't just fire the only helicopter instructor in our area. I have done it and it worked out better in the long run. You may not be so lucky.

 

You will not "burn any bridges" by having a candid talk with this person. If he takes it the wrong way--you didn't need that bridge.

 

That said, as I CFII, I am angry an embarrassed that one of our own is acting in such a way. Our job is to keep you from killing yourself (and others) in the future by imparting our knowledge and experience. He is doing you, and aviation a great disservice. Being a professional aviator is way more than just getting a paycheck for monkey skills.

[Phrogdriver]

Teaching is about transfering knowledge. How do you think your instructor is doing that? By gestures? Smoke signs?

 

If you do one hour groundschool with a new instructor, you can really easily say if he is any good in the cockpit. If he cant explain stuff on the whiteboard, he cant in the cockpit either. Whitout good communication there is no learning!

 

Being an flightinstructor is not about being a safetypilot, its about teaching!

 

If your instructor takes the Iphone out after the flight and before the debrief is done, make sure he gets kicked. Enough other guys looking for a job with a lot more dedication.

 

Besides, this is also about your professionality. Where do you set your standarts? If you think its ok to be teached like that, then thats your standart for later. Aim as high as you can and start as soon as you can. Even as a student your professionality should always aim to do the job as good as you can. Now your job is to learn, maybe later to teach.

 

We all learn different, but nobody will learn anything without feedback. Why do the same mistakes again and again, if your instructor can easily correct and guide you to the right path.

 

He is just wasting your money, time and airspace.

 

Good luck

 

"professionality"? how about we use Professionalism instead and forgo the urban dictionary?

[warmkiter]

Hi Phrogdriver

Thanks a lot for finding a typo. English is not my first language, in fact not even my second;-)

I took your advice and looked in the dictionary.

http://www.dict.cc/?s=professionality

So what did you really want to contribute to the discussion?

Everybody who finds another typo can keep them for free. Finders keepers.

[RkyMtnHI]

Hey Drew! First, I am glad to see that you are hanging in there and pushing forward, I know you are a dedicated guy and want this, you make that very clear. I also know you are a nice guy and want to do the best for everyone involved. You have to put yourself first, as others have indicated, and this is an opportunity to help the CFII, other students (there are probably others that are having similar issues with this instructor), the School and most importantly, your future.

 

I would suggest that you schedule a meeting with the school owner and talk about your issues with her/him. It might be good to have the instructor present at that meeting to clear the air and get everyone on the same page, you are the best judge of that. My goal at the meeting would be to secure some time with every other instructor at the school to see which one fits your needs best, and that might be more than one CFII (maybe one likes ground better, and one flies more at night, another likes to do autos). One of the parts of our program that I like the best, and was a little difficult to get our team to accept in the beginning, is the 10 to 12 hour stage checks with different instructors, we do that at every level. The instructors sometimes don’t want their pilots in training (pt) to fly with other CFIIs because there is risk of loosing that revenue stream, AND, if the pt likes another CFII better that can be seen as a reflection on the first instructor (it shouldn’t be, but if it happens a lot that could be a clear indication of a problem). The pts don’t want to do it initially because they become comfortable with the first CFII, and, they don’t want to look bad to the newer CFII. I don’t have to tell you that this is a win win win for everyone involved. The pilot in training, which is and should always be, the first priority, gets to see what the other CFIIs are like, maybe they just fit better with another instructor, or have things in common, or their schedules mesh, you get the point. The pts see what it’s like to fly with another person, this has many benefits; it gets them ready for their check ride, it empowers them when they realize it’s not that big of a deal to fly with someone else. It gives them an opportunity to work on things from a different perspective, it makes them look at themselves when they have to explain to the new CFII what their strengths and weaknesses are. I could go on and on.. It is also good for the CFIIs; the pts return to them with things that they learned from the other CFII which strengthens the whole team, it makes the CFIIs realize that they have to work for their pts, that they are not ‘THEIR’ students but the flight school's, and that they have to put them FIRST to keep them. The CFIIs fly with most of the pts in the school so everybody gets to know everybody, so the CFIIs can discuss issues with each other to help the pts grow (AND help the instructors grow).. maybe one CFII just can’t stand a certain student, and another instructor doesn’t mind this persons idiosyncrasies, again, what is best for the pt.

 

This also makes the school better and better. Which, makes better CFIIs and better pilots, which is, afterall, the point, right?

 

Learner Centered Grading also helps all of the above in many ways, it kinda pulls it all together on an individual basis for the pts and the CFIIs. I would suggest that everyone here take a closer look at SBT/LCG/FITS asap… There are many of you out there looking for a way to get a leg up on your competition so that you stand out in a pile of resumes.. this is the perfect time and way to do that. I plan to post again about this subject when I can get the time.

 

Keep your chin up Drew.. you know you are doing the right thing.. be a nice guy to yourself first!! ☺

 

Sincerely,

 

dp

[Phrogdriver]

Hi Phrogdriver

Thanks a lot for finding a typo. English is not my first language, in fact not even my second;-)

I took your advice and looked in the dictionary.

http://www.dict.cc/?s=professionality

So what did you really want to contribute to the discussion?

Everybody who finds another typo can keep them for free. Finders keepers.

 

I look forward to seeing your employment cover letter come across my desk; I have just the place to file it.

 

 

Here you go Nietzsche--copied from Webster's.

 

professionality

The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the search bar above.

 

Apologies to mods and others. I digress.

[warmkiter]

Dear Phogdriver

 

This is a bit of a drift in the discussion but somehow it fits also to the topic:

" working hard for feedback "

Thanks a lot for offering me a posibility to send my application for further processing to you. Unfortunately i am working as a CPT for a flagcarrier and my company does not allow me to work professional for another operator. Therefore the only way to fly helicopters is to fly them privat but professionally. This has though the priviledge to choose with whom, when and where.

 

I am sure you let your employees update the revisions in your handbooks. So the mere circumstance that you dont know, does not mean its not written somewhere. Flying is a life long learning experience. Mastering a languages even more and usually it should start a lot earlier, especially if its someones first language.

 

Have a look.

 

professionality

 

 

Century Dictionary

–noun

1. The state or property of being professional; adherence to professional standards.

 

American Heritage Dictionary

 

Wiktionary

 

GNU Webster's 1913

 

WordNet

 

Elsewhere on the web

professionality elsewhere on the web:

 

* Ninjawords

* Online Etymology Dictionary

* OneLook

* Bartleby All Books

* Dictionary of Language Terminology

* Wikipedia

* Google Define

* Amazon Book Search

* Google Books

* Forvo pronunciation

* Word Navigator

 

View examples

 

* " Eventhough they have a tough job on their hands, I think some politeness and professionality on both sides of the fence would help."

 

* " What I didn't like was the transition from the still to your colored version which I think looks too much different and artificial and doesn't fit to the professionality of the rest."

 

* " I would hope that Turnbull, and the team, will seek to insure that greater professionality be employed in the above areas in future shows in this TV series."

 

 

 

 

If you have any further problems how to use this noun, i am more than glad to help you.

 

 

warmkiter

 

ps: i think you worked really hard to get this feedback. ;-)

[rodrop]

There is a nice article on AOPA regarding a code of conduct.

 

Brand new article on AOPA about a code of conduct for instructors.

 

http://www.aopa.org/training/articles/2011/110418model_code_of_conduct_issued_for_flight_instructors.html

Edited April 18, 2011 by rodrop