jimbo2181 Posted May 27, 2011 Report Share Posted May 27, 2011 Looking into running an ag outfit next summer. Trying to get some numbers from some operators for load sizes, acres per hour, DOCs, etc. Looking at Enstrom 280c or 269a,b,or c. If you have done this or know any operator that could help me with these numbers I would appreciate it. Thanks, Jim 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apiaguy Posted May 27, 2011 Report Share Posted May 27, 2011 Running Hughes 269A, B and C. 800 msl to 3000 msl. Dry country, no humidity. I don't use the A for spraying as it doesn't have the power and I have the others... it could do it fine with 40 gal or less depending on temp, alt. The B does alright up to 50 gal. in cool temps but you're over gross with my fat butt... The C model with the right system is approved up to 2150 gross... you have to be low altitude and blow manifold limits to operate that way, but it will do it. I'd say max 75 gallons, but typical loads are 50 to 60. In horrible conditions you might be down to 30 or 40 gal. Also helps if you have a low trailor to fly off (don't build your rig with a 15 foot high platform like the jetranger guys are using. If you have a good set up you can easily do 600 acres a day... more if you like to fly alot. I'd say 60 to 100 acres per hour. The problem with the Schweizer/hughes is only Simplex is currently producing new STC'd systems and they want 30k for one. Sorensen also has an STC'd system for the C model only. Isolair will make you a system or you can find one but you have to deal with the 337 process and that may prove to be impossible.. (it was for me). DOC's... hmmm.. can't really speak to that as there are to many variables that I don't track. I generally figure $250/hr to be safe. If you're willing to fly recip stuff and go a little slower with more take-off/landings you can't beat the 269 in price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbo2181 Posted May 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 Running Hughes 269A, B and C. 800 msl to 3000 msl. Dry country, no humidity. I don't use the A for spraying as it doesn't have the power and I have the others... it could do it fine with 40 gal or less depending on temp, alt. The B does alright up to 50 gal. in cool temps but you're over gross with my fat butt... The C model with the right system is approved up to 2150 gross... you have to be low altitude and blow manifold limits to operate that way, but it will do it. I'd say max 75 gallons, but typical loads are 50 to 60. In horrible conditions you might be down to 30 or 40 gal. Also helps if you have a low trailor to fly off (don't build your rig with a 15 foot high platform like the jetranger guys are using. If you have a good set up you can easily do 600 acres a day... more if you like to fly alot. I'd say 60 to 100 acres per hour. The problem with the Schweizer/hughes is only Simplex is currently producing new STC'd systems and they want 30k for one. Sorensen also has an STC'd system for the C model only. Isolair will make you a system or you can find one but you have to deal with the 337 process and that may prove to be impossible.. (it was for me). DOC's... hmmm.. can't really speak to that as there are to many variables that I don't track. I generally figure $250/hr to be safe. If you're willing to fly recip stuff and go a little slower with more take-off/landings you can't beat the 269 in price. Thank you for that great response. That is some great information. I'll be flying around 1000' high 80's and fairly high humidity so it sounds like a 300C would be a pretty worthy ag ship. Does anyone out there have anymore to say about the 300 or Enstrom. Would really love to hear from an Enstrom Operator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apiaguy Posted May 28, 2011 Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 I know some guys around here that use the Enstrom for ag.. I would say it performs identical to the 300 at the lower elevations... maybe outdoes it by 10 gallons. If you operate above 3000 msl then the advantage would certainly go to the enstrom. Of course if you're looking at the Enstrom C model and not the newer F or FX then the 300C might eclipse it barely at lower altitudes. Of course the nice thing with the Enstrom is the High enertia safety factor. Also the Enstrom would definitely cost more to operate but not by a whole lot. Acquisition costs would be higher for a FX enstrom compared to availability of a 300C. If you can do the maintenance, the field maintainability of the 300 is a definite plus compared to the transmission overhaul costs by Enstrom. If I had the money, I would like to try a FX model. Useful loads on 300 vs Enstrom are similar. At heli-expo everyone tried to convince me to go to the R44 as there are so many out there that lots of aftermarket products are being produced. Yes, it is a good starting ag ship but performs about the same as the enstrom or 300c. I just can't stand the Robinson overhaul schedule and cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trans Lift Posted May 28, 2011 Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 Why not get a 44? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbo2181 Posted May 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 Apiaguy Thanks again for your insight. Would you happen to have a number to one of those operators so I could talk with them? The Enstrom C models seem to be going for about 100-120k for a low hour ship. 300Cs seem to be going for about 150-170k from what I have seen. Another possible advantage I have been looking at is the Enstrom has about a 6' larger rotor diameter so you could have a larger spray swath. Not much but it would add up over time. Trans Lift. A lowish hour Astro will still run you 200k. For all that extra money in acquisition cost you get nothing in return except an extra seat and a higher cruise speed. Neither of which are important in a spray ship. The 300c and 280c will carry pretty equivalent loads to the 44, will cost less to acquire, less to insure, and about the same in maintenance cost. So I guess the question should be "Why get a 44?" rather then "Why not get a 44?" Anymore outsiders care to chime in? I'll take any and all advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam32 Posted May 29, 2011 Report Share Posted May 29, 2011 Have you thought about a Hiller or 47? There was an E model Hiller set-up for spraying for $145k... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick1128 Posted May 29, 2011 Report Share Posted May 29, 2011 Jim, Take a good look at the Type Certificate Data Sheet for the Enstrom. I really don't where everyone is getting the idea that the Enstrom is so costly to maintain. I operated a 28C for two years. The annuals were very straight forward with just minor issues. The only required inspection is the 100 hr/annual. There is no 1200 or 2200 hour inspection or a 12 year inspection. Enstrom used to sell field overhaul kits for the transmissions. They stopped due to quality control issues with the people doing the overhauls. They have very few life limited parts. and several of those have high time limits. So your reserves are fairly low. If you are set on a C model, I wouldn't look at the 280, as they are in higher demand. Go with the 28 series. The only differences is the 280 has a Vne that is a few knots faster. I don't have the figures available in front of me, but I believe that the 28 is a few pounds lighter than the 280. The 28Fs and 280FXs on the market that are on the market are creampuffs and have very good paint and interior plus a lot of radios, which you really don't need. I know of a couple of 28Fs that were bought for well under 100K. They needed paint and interior and had some time on them. Personally in your case, I wouldn't be concerned about the interior. I would have an interior shop build me up a seat just for my side, pull all but the radios I needed (comm, txp, encoder?), pull the duals and all the non required instruments, like the attitude gyro, etc. You may want to pull the baggage compartment. One thing to be careful of is that there are a couple of 28Cs out there that people have put the 28F engine in. With no STC, 337 or field approval. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbo2181 Posted May 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 Adam32 Yes I have thought about both the 47 and Hiller. My only hesitation with those is the age and maintenance costs. I have no idea what either would cost to keep maintained or how easy parts are to come by. I also think it is harder to get the full story on those kind of helicopters. ie I think there are more beat up ones that people paint to look pretty but have issues. If I could find a way to get a good helicopter and good information on maintenance and DOCs I might consider them more. Especially since I understand they do very good loads. (better than Enstrom and 300s by 20 or so gallons) I also worry a little more about reliability. They are pretty tried and true but have also seen pretty nasty failures. Another worry is getting parts quickly. With them being older I understand it could take a while to find a part if something is needed. With such a short spray season I would like a helicopter still in production that you could get AOG parts immediately...just in case. Rick1128 Thank you for your Enstrom knowledge. I have looked at the lifed part list and it is quite short which is nice. The worst I have heard of the Enstrom is that maintenance can be difficult to do. They are not a good helicopter to work on. When working out in rural areas it would be nice if anyone could work on it somewhat competently. I really wish I had my A&P Thank you everyone for the information so far. Keep it coming and I would still love some phone numbers of operators to get some real world numbers. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helicopterdan Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 Enstrom 280 FX... can't go wrong there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trans Lift Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 (edited) I don't think the maintenance cost between a 44 and a 300 are the same. The 44 are pretty much gas and go up to 2200 hours. Once you get the hours up in a 300 they are a bit of a pig for maintenance. I dont know anything about enstroms so I wont comment there. There is no way a schweizer will lift as much as a 44 wither. I can lift 800lbs with the 44 all day long with a hook and 70 gallons for spraying. We have two of them and they are the aircraft of choice, We fly utilty and ag with them all year round and they work great. Look around and you will see many more 44's out there doing spray work than the other two. Edited June 1, 2011 by Trans Lift Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apiaguy Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 ugg... how did this become a robinson vs schweizer discussion? I can carry 90 gallons in the 300c, the hook is good for 850 and please show me a utility R44 that has only had to gas and go to 2200 hours? Seriously.. I already explained that the reason I don't have an R44 is they cost too much! I can do 90% of the utility work that the R44 can for a fraction of the operating cost. It's kind of like the question of do you operate an R44 or do you get an old OH-58 or early 206. When you pencil out the costs you have to make it work for you.... the 300 works for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbo2181 Posted June 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 Apiaguy summed it up nicely. Useful load on 300 is around 950. Useful load on R44 is around 950. 300 cost half as much to purchase, half as much to insure, and the same in maintenance. You will see more operators using them because they are a more prominent aircraft. There are more of them out there right now, just look on trade-a-plane. They are easy to aquire, easy to get parts for, and a good aircraft depending on your use. I have nothing against Robinsons especially the R44. It just doesn't make fiscal sense for me to operate one. Anyway back to the subject on hand. Still looking for phone numbers or email addresses of 300 or Enstrom ag operators. Thank you, Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apiaguy Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 Try South County Helicopters in Pendleton OR for the Enstrom.Southern Helicopter Service in Millington TN for the 269. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick1128 Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 Jim, I don't know where you are getting the information that Enstroms are hard to work on. I help maintain my 28C and found no more difficult than any other light piston helicopter. During my search for my machine, many gave me the opinion that the Enstroms was difficult to work one. After a few questions it came out that a majority of these individuals had never worked one before. Some things are a little tight when cowled up, but the BH 206 is the same way. Good luck Adam32 Yes I have thought about both the 47 and Hiller. My only hesitation with those is the age and maintenance costs. I have no idea what either would cost to keep maintained or how easy parts are to come by. I also think it is harder to get the full story on those kind of helicopters. ie I think there are more beat up ones that people paint to look pretty but have issues. If I could find a way to get a good helicopter and good information on maintenance and DOCs I might consider them more. Especially since I understand they do very good loads. (better than Enstrom and 300s by 20 or so gallons) I also worry a little more about reliability. They are pretty tried and true but have also seen pretty nasty failures. Another worry is getting parts quickly. With them being older I understand it could take a while to find a part if something is needed. With such a short spray season I would like a helicopter still in production that you could get AOG parts immediately...just in case. Rick1128 Thank you for your Enstrom knowledge. I have looked at the lifed part list and it is quite short which is nice. The worst I have heard of the Enstrom is that maintenance can be difficult to do. They are not a good helicopter to work on. When working out in rural areas it would be nice if anyone could work on it somewhat competently. I really wish I had my A&P Thank you everyone for the information so far. Keep it coming and I would still love some phone numbers of operators to get some real world numbers. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heli3544 Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 You cant go out and lift 600lbs with a 300 doing resonable timed turns vs the R44. Sorry. Wont happen. I love the 300, have lots of time in it, but for general utility work the R44 is the way to go, Price per hour VS DOC's is much better. You'll for sure get more bang for your buck in the 44. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apiaguy Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 Gotta love it...Please give me some more info heli3544...Cause I figure the 300 costs half as much to purchase (at least)half as much in DOC'swill reliably lift 500 verse your 600 in the 44.so for much less $...(50% Less) you sacrifice 17% payload.... now how does that give you more bang for your buck?Not to mention the 2200 hr/ 12 yr. thing. or the higher insurance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heli3544 Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 I'd like to see you go out and compete with a R44 doing christmas trees/spraying/tours/photo flights/police work/surveying/ENG ect. And then you tell me your bang for your buck... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam32 Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 There's two Enstroms on Controller for sale right now, set up for spraying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apiaguy Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) I'm not feeling the love this morning. Alas... I see you'll never be convinced that anything in the piston lineup is superior to your R44 for any mission. Edited January 17, 2012 by apiaguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heli3544 Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Just for the record.. I cant stand throw away helicopters, nor do I own one or ever plan on it. I support the 300 more (its a real HELI)...Just way harder making money with them and less efficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trans Lift Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 You'll lift 800lbs all day with a 44. Did time and time again in my last job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiro Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Hi I am pilot on enstrom 480 b wit 1200 hours expirians in sprayng .If somebodi heave some Question please ask:_) and exuze me abaut mi lnguage.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ascj Posted May 18, 2012 Report Share Posted May 18, 2012 Spiro is that 1200 total or on ag in the 480b? What are your thoughts regarding the 480 b as an ag machine especially when compared to an r44.Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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