aeroscout Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 I'm sure the pilot had a much better view of things than a camera lens a thousand yards away. And, worst case, if the helicopter crashes and kills everybody then at least they got taken out by somebody they knew. Too many couch critics IMO, if these guys wanna kill themselves, then God be with them and the best of luck. I might agree with you about letting them kill themselves, but 2 considerations in this instance prevent me. 1 It sullies our profession. 2 There are possible outcomes worse than death, at least to some people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pohi Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 I might agree with you about letting them kill themselves, but 2 considerations in this instance prevent me. 1 It sullies our profession. 2 There are possible outcomes worse than death, at least to some people. Call me old fashioned, but I think people should be able to make their own choices when it comes to playing with their particular toys as long as those choices only affect the willing participants. I would be pissed if somebody sent a video to the DMV or police trying to get me in trouble if I was zipping through some switchbacks in the mountains or on a straightaway while riding my motorcycle. Or if I had a beer and took my quad for a ride, or shooting. Too many people think they should have a say in what other people are doing. Now, if these pilots were screwing around in a company ship, that's a whole different story. Just my two cents, not an attack on anybody who feels otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBuzzkill Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 As aviators we should all hold ourselves to a higher standard than this. This thread is a real eye opener on poor decision making. A helicopter is a toy? Really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d10 Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Laws are usually written as a knee jerk reaction to a tragedy. That's kind of my point. The question here is whether the pilot was reckless. I personally don't think so. In fact I mentioned that the mere act of flying an R-44 is probably more dangerous, and there are plenty of other extreme sports that are clearly more dangerous. The laws against cliff diving aren't based on danger. They exist because of that one time years ago when some untrained kid got drunk and tried to jump into a spot he hadn't scouted. I acknowledged that legally this will end up being called reckless but only for the reasons you mentioned, not because it was any more dangerous than plenty of activities people do every day. I'm with Pohi. It upsets me that we have laws restricting what kind of risks people are allowed to assume for themselves. A helicopter is a toy? Really? I wouldn't call it a toy, but helicopters can be used for recreational purposes, yes. Do you feel any differently about pilots who are hired to take skiiers to the tops of mountains? What about BASE jumpers, wingsuit flyers or speed flyers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightsta1ker Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 That's kind of my point. The question here is whether the pilot was reckless. I personally don't think so. In fact I mentioned that the mere act of flying an R-44 is probably more dangerous, and there are plenty of other extreme sports that are clearly more dangerous. The laws against cliff diving aren't based on danger. They exist because of that one time years ago when some untrained kid got drunk and tried to jump into a spot he hadn't scouted. I acknowledged that legally this will end up being called reckless but only for the reasons you mentioned, not because it was any more dangerous than plenty of activities people do every day. I'm with Pohi. It upsets me that we have laws restricting what kind of risks people are allowed to assume for themselves. I wouldn't call it a toy, but helicopters can be used for recreational purposes, yes. Do you feel any differently about pilots who are hired to take skiiers to the tops of mountains? What about BASE jumpers, wingsuit flyers or speed flyers? If the helicopter is being used by professionally trained risk takers and the flight is planned and executed in a safe manner, then I see no problem with it. What that video appeared to show was some pilot who knew the people on the boat, had probably pre arranged to go out to the lake and screw around. None of those people looked like professionals, and I would also be willing to bet that there was probably alcohol involved. It's one thing to be a focused professional doing risky things and using a helicopter to do it. It's another to go screw around with your friends on a busy lake. You said yourself that most of those knee jerk reactions were because some amateur was drunk or didn't scout his jump.... That did not look like professionals or serious and careful enthusiasts to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pohi Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 (edited) As aviators we should all hold ourselves to a higher standard than this. This thread is a real eye opener on poor decision making. A helicopter is a toy? Really? Yup, a helicopter sure can be a toy. Edited June 7, 2012 by Pohi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred0311 Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Id agree with letting people kill themselves if it's a singular activity like the guy having a few beers on the atv cause he knows the risks. People have faith in pilots like they do doctors. They assume they know what they are doing and wouldn't put them in danger. just like most people don't realize most tour pilots are practically jornerymen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 What's the point in having a toy helicopter if you don't use it to show off to your freinds! You should see the things I do with my jetski,...let alone my lambourghini! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich1 Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 It's just the reality of our passion for these flying machines....what makes them so amazing (their freedom and flexibility) also lends itself to some folks making some unbelievably stupid decisions, showing off, making questionable judgement calls. It's always been a safety/insurance concern, but now in the age of the cell phone camera and you tube, it's always good to remember that 1) not everyone thinks a helicopter landing, hovering or circling at low altitude is as cool as we do; 2) you can just plan on a picture making its way to the local FSDO or newspaper replete with your tail number. A great skill to learn early on is a high degree of discernment and judgement, lest we all lose that freedom and flexibility we enjoy do much... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightsta1ker Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 I'm going to ride on Rich's coattails here. John Q. Public does not like helicopters (unless we happen to be rescuing them, that is). Were very noisy and the general perception is that we are on the verge of plummeting out of the sky at any moment. When pilots pull stunts like this, it only gives the earthbound masses more ammunition to use against us when it comes to noise abatement, altitude restrictions, and local ordinances. Yes, you may get your license or medical pulled if the FAA decides that you were being reckless or violated a regulation, but you may also be limiting the rest of the helicopter community by prompting new rules and regulations that limit what the rest of us can do, even if we are doing it responsibly. Please fly responsibly, for EVERYONE'S sake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MileHi480B Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 Yup, a helicopter sure can be a toy. Agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trans Lift Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) They might not be trained professionals but neither are millions of people who do more dangerous things on a daily basis to get their adrenaline flowing. Yeah you can get hurt cliff diving but no-one was diving, it was all feet first. A sore ball sack is probably what most of them got out of it. I jumped off 75ft cliffs when I was 18 or so, was I a trained pro, nope. Was it bucketloads of fun, yup! Of course, there is the professional image to maintain but if it is some rich guy with his own machine who knows all of the people and they want to horse play well then whatever. If they hurt themselves then they hurt themselves. As long as no innocent bystanders are hurt well I don't see much of an issue with it. Everything in this country is too dangerous these days, people paranoid about every little thing. It's come to the point of being completely ridiculous. P.S. We don't know if they were trained professionals or not yet, do we? Edited June 11, 2012 by Trans Lift 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick1128 Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 They might not be trained professionals but neither are millions of people who do more dangerous things on a daily basis to get their adrenaline flowing. Yeah you can get hurt cliff diving but no-one was diving, it was all feet first. A sore ball sack is probably what most of them got out of it. I jumped off 75ft cliffs when I was 18 or so, was I a trained pro, nope. Was it bucketloads of fun, yup! Of course, there is the professional image to maintain but if it is some rich guy with his own machine who knows all of the people and they want to horse play well then whatever. If they hurt themselves then they hurt themselves. As long as no innocent bystanders are hurt well I don't see much of an issue with it. Everything in this country is too dangerous these days, people paranoid about every little thing. It's come to the point of being completely ridiculous. P.S. We don't know if they were trained professionals or not yet, do we? TL, non-pilots don't know what is safe and what is not. But they do make judgements based on what they see and perceive. To them if it looks dangerous, it is dangerous. FAA legal has a standard called 'reasonable and prudent'. Did what this pilot do meet that standard? I don't think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pohi Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 They wanted to practice jumping off cliffs where there were no cliffs. So they used a helicopter instead, sounds reasonable. They did it over water instead of in their yard, sounds prudent. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
500F Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 What's the difference of dropping 50 feet from a helicopter and diving off a cliff that's 50-125 feet?? I used to cliff dive from 65 feet on still water (no waterfalls or spill ways) when I was a young kid. I agree though, if anything could/should have gone wrong, the outcome would not have been very good. The difference is that the FAA does not regulate cliff diving. From a risk stand point, Its likely less dangerous than cliff diving because you are well away form the rocks. But the FAA doesn't want people tarnishing their safety record doing stupid crap like this. For that reason I'm sure they will at least suspend him and cite 91.13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pohi Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 This sounds like great grounds for a wager! I'll talk to by bookie and see if I can get it sanctioned. Ill bet the FAA does nothing (somebody has to play the long odds) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CO423 Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 I understand why he grot himself into trouble. Potential for disaster. Who is responsible for the broken back or injured persons if someone did get injured? Understanding that this r44 may be individually owned and been operated by its owner. Most importantly, this is not a very professional thing to do... Period.It looks fun, but there are lots of things I life and in this career that you just have to say NO to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flybull Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 I'll take that bet. He'll lose his ticket for at least 90, if not indefinitely. And.... IMH, it should be at least that. A friend of mine, who has been flying fixed wing for 30+ years, held every fw rating, and was a former member of the Red Baron aerobatic team, lost his ticket indefinitely for "pitching up at an angle greater than 60 degrees" without "proper aerobatic equipment" (parachute) in his supercub. Basically, he pulled up agressively into (I believe) an Immelman after a flour "bomb" drop at a little local fly-in and the local Fed saw it happen. No parachute? No ticket. Took him 18 months to get back in the air. As far as the participants in this R44 stunt.... do we know that within the rotor strike or crash zone area of this pilots operations were "willing participants"? Perhaps there were others on the boat or in the water that weren't willing to put their lives on the line for some fun. How was the pilot to know? Claiming this wasn't wreckless or imprudent doesn't wash with me, nor will it with the FAA. BTW..... 26 years ago when I was 20, I dove off a 65' cliff. The force of entry made my hands impact the top of my head which forced my head backwards, causing a fracture in two vertabrae. Still makes sleeping mostly uncomfortable. I'm no doctor, but entry into the water from those heights while at an angle leaning backward, would subject the base of the skull to some serious impact.... similar to the Bassler skull fracture that killed Dale Earnhardt. Doesn't take much force back there to cause serious trauma or death. Just sayin..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ridethisbike Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 91.119 Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes: (a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface. (b ) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft. ( c ) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure. (d) Helicopters, powered parachutes, and weight-shift-control aircraft. If the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface� (1) A helicopter may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph ( or © of this section, provided each person operating the helicopter complies with any routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the FAA; and[/Quote] paragraph D, There was definitely a hazard present. Nothing happened in the end, but the FAA's response is going to be "What if your engine failed?" The hazard existed even though it didn't manifest. I wouldn't be surprised if they got him for paragraph C as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotormandan Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 Is the downward load on the skids a limitation or just knowledge that they're not designed for it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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