ATP rating

[zippiesdrainage]

So I have a question for you guys to fight over. Should a pilot pay for their own ATP or should an employer provide the training much like we all agree that a student should never pay for turbine or their own external load training. Are there any employers that even do such a thing?

Secondly in the FAR it states that an ATP can train other ATPs even without a CFI rating, menewhile in 61.193 flight instructor privileges it doesn't include ATP however it doesn't specifically say commercial rating either simply "a pilot certificate", and ATP is certainly a pilot certificate. Does this mean any CFI can teach and endorse a pilot working toward an ATP rating? It seems like it to me, but that's why I'm asking you guys.

[Gomer Pylot]

Some companies do pay for the ATP checkride, and probably more will allow the use of their aircraft for the ride. It's up to the companies, and how much they need pilots with an ATP. It's common in the GOM, since the customers want their pilots to have the rating.

 

An ATP allows instructing other pilots in commercial service, not limited to ATPs. That means you can be a company instructor or check airman without having a CFI. You can't instruct student pilots, though. You don't really need instruction for the ATP, just the experience, but it doesn't hurt to get some. The instruction can be from a CFI, and ATP, or just another commercial pilot, no special rating required for that because there is no specific instruction required. You have to already have a commercial pilot certificate, and an instrument rating, before you can apply for an ATP.

[Wally]

I'm biased in that I paid for some extra instruction and the checkride myself.

 

I know pilots still waiting for the company training aircraft to be available for the ride.

 

Some jobs "prefer" an ATP and it doesn't disqualify you from any...

Edited October 16, 2012 by Wally

[eagle5]

This may sound like a dumb question, but...

 

Do you need an instrument rating to get an ATP, or just 75hrs of instrument time?

[RagMan]

Subpart G—Airline Transport Pilots

 

§ 61.153 Eligibility requirements: General.

 

To be eligible for an airline transport pilot certificate, a person must:

(a) Be at least 23 years of age;

( Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language. If the applicant is unable to meet one of these requirements due to medical reasons, then the Administrator may place such operating limitations on that applicant's pilot certificate as are necessary for the safe operation of the aircraft;

© Be of good moral character;

(d) Meet at least one of the following requirements:

(1) Holds a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating issued under this part;

 

 

§ 61.161 Aeronautical experience: Rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating.

 

(a) A person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating, must have at least 1,200 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:

(1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time;

(2) 100 hours of night flight time, of which 15 hours are in helicopters;

(3) 200 hours of flight time in helicopters, which includes at least 75 hours as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of a pilot in command under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof; and

(4) 75 hours of instrument flight time in actual or simulated instrument meteorological conditions, of which at least 50 hours are obtained in flight with at least 25 hours in helicopters as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of a pilot in command under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof.

 

Need both an Instrument AND 75 hours actual or simulated instrument time.

Edited October 16, 2012 by RagMan

[JDHelicopterPilot]

My company will more than likely allow the use of the aircraft for the ATP ride, and there would be no waiting for it in my case.

 

Reason being, we have a FAA DPE on staff, and I have to do a Part 135.297 ride in addition to the normal VFR stuff so might as well sign off on the ATP as well.

[C of G]

I don't think everyone would say not to pay for a turbine transition or external load course, it's just that they wouldn't really make a difference in you getting a job or not. I'd sooner pay for the external load, but just for the experience.

 

Now an ATP is a certificate, so it can open a door that the commercial couldn't. Not many doors, but it can help with a nudge all else being equal. Sometimes it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference The company I work for goes the extra mile and will even reimburse for some ATP experience requirement time building. Additionally they'll sort out the checkride with an in house DPE and provide the aircraft if the DPE is qualified in it.

 

So, should they pay for it? I'd say it's a significant perk, but they are under no obligation. But part 135 operators are required to train you in the equipment that their pilots are to fly, so they are obligated to give you that "Turbine transition" of sorts.

[Gomer Pylot]

One thing to be aware of is that if you take the ATP ride in conjunction with the Part 135 ride, and you fail the ATP ride, you also failed the Part 135 ride, and you are in a bind. If you already have the Part 135 ride passed, and fail the ATP ride, you just don't get the ATP, and you can still fly your regular job. It probably won't be an issue, but you need to be aware of that. Also, the ATP oral is not the same as the Part 135 PIC oral. They can be given simultaneously, but it may take longer, depending on the DPE. I took two rides at recurrent just for that reason, one regular recurrent ride and a separate ATP ride. The ATP oral covered far fewer topics, but took longer, because it was in great depth on aircraft systems.

[d10]

Can anyone tell me the process for completing the knowledge test part of the ATP if I'm trying to take it on my own? I don't have a flight school or employer to go through. Who needs to verify my logbook and how do I get the endorsement to take the test?

[zippiesdrainage]

(Disregard this post, I was wrong)

Edited October 17, 2012 by zippiesdrainage

[C of G]

There are no endorsements required for the practical nor for the written. Just need the experience requirements for the practical. The written can be taken at any point and is good for two years.

Edited October 17, 2012 by C of G

[d10]

Thanks, the little information I could find about it online implied it was much more complicated.

[C of G]

It's a very straight forward ride and process. Easiest checkride I've had, probably because at the point you take it, you have been flying for a bit. The question is wether to do it in a complex aircraft and make the flying easier, or do it in a simple aircraft and make the systems knowledge easier.

 

But you can put yourself up for the ride whenever you meet the aeronautical requirements, and have the written out of the way. If you haven't taken the written yet, I've heard Sheppard Air has a course that makes it very simple. I just crammed for two days.

[d10]

Thanks for the Sheppard Air rec. I finished the written this morning with a 98% after studying with their program. At least one of my wrong answers was due to a mistake in their test bank, and I think the second one was the same, but I may have misread the answer choices or misclicked on that one. Also came across one question that wasn't in their test bank but it was similar to one I had studied and it wasn't hard to figure out. Not bad though, and I ended up getting my money back for reporting the new question.

[C of G]

As I'm sure you know... if you report the question to Sheppard Air, you'll be refunded your fee for their prep. I know a guy that had the same, I believe he didn't take the refund, but rather just let them know for the next guy (or girl).

[d10]

Yeah I took the refund, I'm not that generous. Maybe if it was just the one new question that I answered correctly anyway I'd pass it on for free, but I was disappointed at not scoring 100%, particularly due to a question that they provided the incorrect answer for. If they're going to market their product as the most accurate and up to date test bank then I'm sure they're happy to pay for new info.

[C of G]

Agreed, on the paying for accuracy bit, but I suppose it also shows to not believe everything you read from an "instructor" if you also fell for the wrong answer.

[Five0]

d10,

 

How long did you have to study before you took the written?

[d10]

Agreed, on the paying for accuracy bit, but I suppose it also shows to not believe everything you read from an "instructor" if you also fell for the wrong answer.

 

True, and I really have no excuse for the one question. I'm only confident SA's answer was wrong because I spent so much time looking at it on the test thinking the answer I was putting in made no sense.

 

d10,

 

How long did you have to study before you took the written?

 

Probably about 10 hours over the course of a week. I would have felt comfortable with less but I wanted to memorize the entire test bank.

[RagMan]

The Sheppard Air prep material is great. I studied on and off for two days before I took my FOI written exam. 15 minutes after starting the written test, I walked out with 100%. I'm currently using it to study for my CFI written as well. Sorry for the thread jack.

[avbug]

An ATP allows instructing other pilots in commercial service, not limited to ATPs. That means you can be a company instructor or check airman without having a CFI.

 

14 CFR 61.167.b.1 authorizes the holder of an ATP certificate to provide instruction to other pilots in air transportation service...not merely to other pilots in commercial service. Merely being a company instructor doesn't mean one can use one's ATP to provide instruction. The pilot receiving the instruction must be part of the training curriculum authorized by the certificate holder, and it must be conducted pursuant to, and as a part of air transportation service. A helilogging operation doesn't count, nor do many routine operations...even if the person providing the instruction is an ATP and the person receiving the instruction is an employee.

 

One cannot simply provide instruction as an ATP, for example, to someone working on their instrument rating...that person receiving the instruction would have to be doing so under an air carrier approved training program, while in air transportation service (company business); the ATP and the student must both be employees or "on" the operator air carrier certificate, and the flying must be part of the training program or an operation that's part of the air transport services conducted by that certificate holder. It cannot be on a Part 91 flight.

 

Refer to FAA Chief Legal Counsel letter of interpretation dated November 2, 2010:http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2010/Creech.pdf

 

As far as studying for the ATP, pick up a Gleim book and study. It's not rocket science.

 

The ATP is really nothing more than another instrument rating, with the oral and "written" (knowledge exam) geared toward air transport service (hence the name: airline transport pilot).

Edited November 8, 2012 by avbug