Skip that first tier job?

[Mikemv]

Velo173,

 

All pilots today do need an instrument rating (IFR) and a CFII to continue on the career path.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Mikemv

[pilot#476398]

When I first started you didn't NEED the instrument rating, but my school said thay were starting to require it. When they start saying, "we only hire CFIIs" then you have no choice but to get it, which of course also includes, "well we only hire CFIIs with R44 time,...'cause well, that's what we teach it in!"

 

I wonder if one day flight schools may start saying, "we only hire CFIIs with NVG Longline and Turbine training"?

 

After all all, flight training is a business!

[Flying Pig]

When this GI Bill money dries up, that will all end.

[iChris]

Sometime you need to look pass the up front people, CFI’s etc. What are the real motives of management or the people directing the so-called management? The same plays that were run during Silver State Helicopters are still in play in varying degrees of modification today. Why, because they still work, and the few at the top are untouchable and the students pay.

 

Most flight schools start out with the best of intensions; however, greed often slips in. Don’t be fooled by their top 5% in these videos. In order to survive they need a consistent inflow of new students, but at what cost? What about the other 95%?

 

Continued vigilance is required from every student to insure the school’s real motives don’t conflict with your best interest.

 

 

"Silver State didn’t care about providing the service. Silver State cared about getting paid for the service." – Randy Rowles, former V.P., Silver State Helicopters.

 

By August 2007, Airola had virtually stopped holding the recruiting seminars, sold his company to New York-based EOS Partners, and remained onboard as SSH’s general manager. EOS hired several executives to help run the 800-employee business, including Randy Rowles, who was brought on as the VP of training operations in the fall.

 

In an exclusive interview for this article, Randy Rowles told Rotor & Wing that one of his goals was to have SSH’s training program qualify as a U.S. Veterans Administration-approved flight school. But in order to do that, the company would have to meet a strict set of government-mandated guidelines, including one that prohibits disbursing 100-percent of a student loan before 100 percent of the training has been received.

 

Rowles met with his bosses to discuss the matter. "I just told them we need to change the refund policy, because the [Veteran’s Administration] mandates a fair and equitable refund policy [that says] unused dollars get returned," explained Rowles. "The answer I got was, ‘We only want about 20 percent of these people to finish.’"

 

According to Rowles, he was told that it was in SSH’s best interest to leave the student loan disbursement system the way it was, because if a student left after the third month, their entire $69,900 would be in the company’s possession, and SSH would have no legal obligation to refund a dollar of it.

 

As for the student, if they left prior to the completion of training, SSH would tell the lender that they had abandoned their training, thus beginning the student’s obligation repay the loan at $1,000 per month. In essence, the school would have the entire tuition without having to provide the entire program of training. It was easy money.

 

Insiders talk about the sweet idea that suddenly went sour

 

Edited November 12, 2013 by iChris

[aeroscout]

The best businesses are the ones with the kind of integrity it takes to have satisfied repeat customers, and a business plan that includes being in business for generations to come.

[pilot#476398]

The best businesses are the ones with the kind of integrity it takes to have satisfied repeat customers, and a business plan that includes being in business for generations to come.

 

Boatpics has been around since the 80s,...?

[gary-mike]

I go to ULA, and I currently fly the R22 as a veteran/active duty. I can fly the 206 after I do my instrument in the R44, and then I can go back to the R22 for my CFI. They aren't putting people through the whole program in a turbine helicopter. Yes they do have to market their program, all schools do. They have never told me that they guarantee a job but, I know they have and continue to hire from outside schools. It's a good sign in my eyes however, I do understand that if they lose the VA program it could all end overnight.

[Flying Pig]

So when are you sending your app off to the local EMS company I think your post confirmed everything we are saying. The promo video is far from what really happens. The video says when you graduate from UL you are Ina. Position to go right into EMS, firefighting or the Gulf. Doesn't sound like that's the case huh? Maybe ask that dude why he said that.

[Mikemv]

FP,

 

Gary-Mike has attended Heli Success the last three years.

 

He certainly knows how to approach the industry and the requirements for various tier levels.

 

Is the Dude in the video even around anymore at UL? Gary-Mike is way smarter about the industry than the Dude in the video.

 

Mike

Edited November 13, 2013 by Mikemv

[Flying Pig]

The guy in the video is probably flying tours

[Spike]

The guy in the video is probably flying tours

 

Giggle.....

[Wally]

The more I think about it, the more I wonder why you'd want to skip a 'first tier job'. There's a reason some positions have minimum experience levels.

At one time it was considered efficient to throw people who couldn't swim into the water, and well- sink or swim.

[Flying Pig]

I would imagine because its not considered "glamorous" They are marketing to vets who are looking to get into a career. Not do something where they have to spend the next few years paying their dues in a different industry. "Hey, come to our school and just get started on your career."

[aeroscout]

 

Boatpics has been around since the 80s,...?

I think I see the point you might be trying to make. Maybe Boatpix exists on the fence that separates good from bad.

[gary-mike]

Yeah Mike, he's still around, he is one of the guys running the cedar city school now. He was at Hellisuccess taking resumes this year, that's the only part I saw him there for this year. I believe it was at last years event he received one of the scholarships.

 

I don't know about skipping steps and going straight into EMS, but they do get some commercial work, and are working with another commercial company on filling positions. I don't get too excited about or involved in the politics. I've seen similar things come and go with other schools and I'm far from the requirements at this stage.

 

As far as using turbine aircraft, I understand the concern of the VA drying up the funding. With the congressional budget issues we face these days it is a valid concern. I became concerned about that possibility and decided it was time I had to jump on the opportunity. These programs are scrutinized quite highly though, ask a school owner that is trying to get approved. They can't just go get an Aw109 and put it on a students billing sheet, everything has to be approved. ULA is not the only school doing this either, in fact I heard of another school that was getting EC120s to do training in, and then you have a bunch of them getting R66's.

 

In the end every school has good and bad points, find what fits you and go for it. So far I have no major issues with ULA but, if its not for you, go somewhere else. Flight blocks stay plenty full with the current flow of students here.

 

Oh yeah, no I will be far from ready for any of them jobs flying pig, but hopefully I have a good chance at that first tier job as an instructor to help get me there.

 

Thanks for the comments Mike.

Edited November 14, 2013 by gary-mike

[Jaybee]

Advertising or not, it is misleading at best.

 

IMHO, it is downright shameful.

[Whiteshadow]

I am transferring to ULA this January. Not because I have been lured in by the additional turbine time or "specialty" classes. I am actually being forced to switch schools. A year ago the VA suspended the program I was in here in Colorado. The school kept stringing us along each semester with the promise that the errors had been fixed, and the program would be up and running again the next semester. I took all of my Gen. Ed. classes, since we weren't allowed to sign up for any aviation courses until the re-inspection was done.

 

A year later, and the re-inspection has been postponed, and postponed, and postponed. I even transferred to a different University to start my Bachelor's degree this semester. I was willing to give them one more semester to get it straightened out. Well, now the meeting which will decide the fate of the program is supposed to happen Monday. I have zero faith that it will actually happen, so I am transferring to ULA. The worst part of it is that it's our school's VA rep who is stringing us along.

 

I only have 9 months of benefits left. Just enough to finish my ratings at ULA.

 

So why did I choose ULA? I have to go somewhere and finish up. So I chose ULA because:

 

- Closer to home than most other schools (9 hour drive from my house)

 

- Good University to continue classes with

 

- Very low cost of living (will be paying for rent there, and my house here in Colorado)

 

Now, since I am forced to move somewhere, why not go somewhere that I can get additional turbine time in? A year ago, I would not have been so keen to take advantage of something like this. But you want to know the truth? I am pissed off! It took my sending letters to Congressmen and Senators just to get the VA to tell us why they shut the program down! Nobody at my flight school, the college, or the VA (who are supposed to be our advocates) would give us any information until a Senator got involved.

 

So I am forced to leave my family here and finish my training out of state. I know eventually I would have taken a job that takes me away from them, so I am willing to do it for training as well. However, if everyone (or anyone!) had been honest with us up front, I could have almost been done with that training by now.

 

If I am forced to go somewhere else, I am going to get the most bang for my VA's buck. I also believe that the VA will not be paying for flight training very much longer. I feel very lucky and extremely grateful that I am able to use the program at all. But I am also in it for the long haul. That is why I am willing to relocate to make it happen. I am shocked at how many students aren't willing to finish it somewhere else. I guess they are just going to pick something else to do. They didn't truly want to do this for a career. They just thought it was cool. What a waste.

 

So, a year ago, I would have felt like I was taking unfair advantage of a situation like the one we have at ULA. Now, I don't feel that way. I am proving that this is more than just a passing fancy for me, it is my career. And anything I can add to my resume, I will take it.

 

I went to Cedar City 2 weekends ago to check everything out in person. Shake some hands, get some questions answered, etc. I was blown away by the enthusiasm at the school, and the efficiency of the college. Night and day from what I have experienced in Colorado.

 

One thing that was not mentioned in the video is that ULA has a 135 operation as well. One thing that really caught my ear was something that "the guy in the video" said to me. He said that when their CFI's get their 1000 hours, they don't want them to feel like they can't wait to leave and go off and get a tour gig, or GOM, etc. They would prefer it if they loved working there, and simply slide over to the commercial side of the house. That's the thing that most impressed me. I also think that if he had elaborated on that in the video, what he is getting criticized for here would make a little more sense to everyone.

 

Anyway, that's just my take on it. You can view it as coming from a guy who is still in training and doesn't know jack, or coming from a guy who wants a career as a pilot and is willing to go wherever he needs to go, yet take advantage of all possible "bonuses" he can get out of the deal........before it's gone.

[Flying Pig]

I've attended 5 different flight schools. Everyone of them was a 135 operation and had opportunities for instructors on a case by case basis as the need arose. If you were around when they needed a King air pilot, you maybe be the guy tapped to jump in as long as your multi-time was up there. Nobody is questioning the enthusiasm or whether the school has a turbine helicopter. The school made a blanket statement that said when students graduate their program they are set to go right into EMS and firefighting. Everyone here knows the deal and knows how this works. The issue is that this video was intended to motivate students to select their school The video was meant for people who don't know any better. You chose ULA for your own personal reasons that are specific to you and your families needs. but what about the guy who relocates from Miami to Utah because he was told this school found the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow?

[Whiteshadow]

Flying Pig, I agree with everything you just said. The problem with the last part is that every person coming into this career field should do their homework and know what the industry is really like. It took me about a day of reading these forums (years ago) to figure out the normal career progression, and that there is no magic way to circumvent the system. Yet I have been in school with people who either didn't do their homework and realize what was the truth and what was just sales pitches, or those who simply think that they are special and will find a way in without going the same way the rest of us chumps will. I have no sympathy for those who don't do their research and learn what it will be like. Nor do I have any sympathy for those who think they are special and have a way to get around the normal career path.

[Flying Pig]

Or schools can be honest? I know.... That's a long shot, but really most are. This school took overt steps to paint a pretty picture specifically geared towards VA students with cash. I know by now that the guy in that video is reading this forum....this industry is to small to believe someone hasn't shot him an email with a link. Now, when a student graduates from this school are they screwed for life? No...I'm sure they got a PTS standard education and most of those students will head out on the hunt for their first job like everyone else. But the bait that was set to get them to choose their school was blatantly dishonest.

[Jaybee]

I replied earlier but I guess I'm still in queue.

 

Like Flying Pig said, its a small business, an email from a friend saying check this out... and here we are....

 

I got fed a similar line when I was a 17 year old kid 23 years ago and went to a trade school. Then when I graduated they said "Congratulations, you are now qualified for an entry level position" and I thought "Hey, that's not what you told me when I came here !" - lesson learned.

 

EMS, Firefighting, Tours, etc are not entry level positions.

[Falko]

The guy in the video is probably flying tours

now that's funny

[Spike]

If I am forcI am going to get the most bang for my VA's buck.

 

And anything I can add to my resume, I will take it.

 

 

One thing that was not mentioned in the video is that ULA has a 135 operation as well. One thing that really caught my ear was something that "the guy in the video" said to me. He said that when their CFI's get their 1000 hours, they don't want them to feel like they can't wait to leave and go off and get a tour gig, or GOM, etc. They would prefer it if they loved working there, and simply slide over to the commercial side of the house. That's the thing that most impressed me. I also think that if he had elaborated on that in the video, what he is getting criticized for here would make a little more sense to everyone.

 

Anyway, that's just my take on it. You can view it as coming from a guy who is still in training and doesn't know jack, or coming from a guy who wants a career as a pilot and is willing to go wherever he needs to go, yet take advantage of all possible "bonuses" he can get out of the deal........before it's gone.

 

As said in the I-Robot movie, “my responses are limited. You have to ask the right questions”.

 

Flight schools primary focus, should be, teaching students how to fly. Somewhere along the way, some schools believe it’s beneficial to achieve 135 certification so they can use their machines for transportation. And, why not? They already have the equipment, -right? Especially if it’s a turbine that is available for VA beneficiaries with unrestricted funds.…… Get the picture…..

 

The reality is; most schools don’t need 135 certification. Basically, is a gimmick based on a hope that customers (like a government) will come in and charter (via contract) the machine. With that said, why would a 1000 hour CFI stay on at a flight school to fly an occasional charter when he or she could go fly the ditch and pound out hundreds of turbine hours in just a few months? However this, of course, is not true for a legit 135 operator who also provides flight instruction (there is a difference and prospective students should fully understand this). And, while schools will advertise various levels of 135 operations, they often are not “players” in the 135 sector like a Hillsboro Aviation is. Comparatively speaking....

 

Mind you, this isn’t intended to dissuade anyone from attending the school mentioned in this thread. In fact, if this school fits, then by all means, have at it. But, if you are impressed with a 135 certificate, you have to ask the right questions, like; how much revenue is produce by the 135 certificate? In the past year, how many hours were spent conducting; Aerial Photography & Film, Aerial Surveys, Air Ambulance, Electronic News Gathering, Fire Support, Heavy-lift up to 1,500 pounds, Power line Patrol, Search & Rescue and Seismic & Exploration (as advertised)? If the answer is, “a few” or “occasionally”, then the school, and its VA students, are supporting the 135 certificate….

 

Lastly, for a newly graduated CFII, having a few turbine hours won’t make you stand out. Believing so insults the intelligence of those who are responsible for the hiring…..

 

Again, you sound like you have circumstances which limit your choices. Just be advised, the above statements are to inform those who have options.....

Edited November 14, 2013 by Spike

[Whiteshadow]

Spike, you gave me some good stuff to think about, consider, and ask. I appreciate that. I am always looking to educate myself as much as possible about the industry. I am also the first to admit that being a perpetual optimist tends to make me gloss over some facts that might be there for me to see, yet simply subconsciously choose not to see.

 

I never thought about the "how much 135 work do you do?" question. I just thought, if they have a 135 operation, then they must be doing good, and it is good that they don't have all their eggs in the flight training basket.

 

I definitely want to look into the 135 side of things as you mentioned. Thank you.

[iChris]

One thing that was not mentioned in the video is that ULA has a 135 operation as well. One thing that really caught my ear was something that "the guy in the video" said to me. He said that when their CFI's get their 1000 hours, they don't want them to feel like they can't wait to leave and go off and get a tour gig, or GOM, etc.

 

But, if you are impressed with a 135 certificate, you have to ask the right questions, like; how much revenue is produce by the 135 certificate? In the past year, how many hours were spent conducting; Aerial Photography & Film, Aerial Surveys, Air Ambulance, Electronic News Gathering, Fire Support, Heavy-lift up to 1,500 pounds, Power line Patrol, Search & Rescue and Seismic & Exploration (as advertised)? If the answer is, “a few” or “occasionally”, then the school, and its VA students, are supporting the 135 certificate….

 

The reality is; most schools don’t need 135 certification. Basically, is a gimmick based on a hope that customers (like a government) will come in and charter (via contract) the machine.

 

That's Correct.....

 

I never thought about the "how much 135 work do you do?" question. I just thought, if they have a 135 operation, then they must be doing good, and it is good that they don't have all their eggs in the flight training basket.

 

I definitely want to look into the 135 side of things as you mentioned. Thank you.

 

Again, the same plays that were run by Silver State Helicopters, and other companies in the past, are still in play in varying degrees of modification today. Why, because they still work.

 

Continued vigilance is required from every student to insure the school’s real motives don’t conflict with your best interest.

 

But the problems ran deeper, still. While examining the company’s books, Rowles discovered that SSH’s contract, charter and tourism business was not what it appeared to be. Of the 800 hours put on their turbine aircraft over the period that he looked at, half or less generated any money.

 

So, if they weren’t out there flying revenue-producing missions, what were they being used for? Rowles said he found that the company’s turbine fleet was often being flown from one recruiting seminar to the next to give attendees the impression that the helicopters they saw at the event were based there.

 

This, he said, meant two things. First, the turbine fleet was losing money. Second, SSH would not be able to hire anywhere near as many of its graduates as Airola said it would during the recruiting events.

 

Insiders talk about the sweet idea that suddenly went sour

 

Now you're not naive enough to think we're living in a democracy, are you, Whiteshadow? It's the free market, and you're part of it. Yeah, you got that killer instinct. Stick around pal, we've still got a lot to teach you.

Edited November 15, 2013 by iChris