Skip that first tier job?

[Flying Pig]

I met a brand new SSH CFI and his commercial student at Coalinga Airport in CA. The CFI had just finished his rating and this was his first student. the student had just started her commercial. If you have ever been there it's in the middle of nowhere. We chatted, they jumped in the 500 and looked around. Both were excited.....not to mention the CFI was in his fresh new tan flight suit. They talked about their goals, the CFI talked about how he couldn't believe he was being paid to fly now...etc etc etc. about a week later was when the whole SSH thing unraveled. Pretty sad. I'd be curious to know what happened to the girl who had just started her commercial with a prepaid loan. At least the CFI had finished his ratings.

[Spike]

Thank you.

 

I appreciate that as well. However, I must ask, why be concerned about the 135 stuff? You’re a student, -right. Be concerned about the school side of the operation. Insure the training will meet your goals and most importantly, posture yourself to be hired. Moreover, be cognizant of the focus of the school. It should be on YOU. Not on any 135 junk….. Focus on the next hurtle, and not some hurtle out in left field. That is, get your certificates and ratings, get hired as a CFII and build your time. When you get to that 1000 hours and the school still has an “occasional” 135 seat for you, then great. While waiting, you can apply to other entry-level turbine gigs, like tours, and hopefully move on and expand your horizons….. Just one thing though, if they want you to make a promo video, make sure it’s in line with the real world…….

[pilot#476398]

One thing that was not mentioned in the video is that ULA has a 135 operation as well. One thing that really caught my ear was something that "the guy in the video" said to me. He said that when their CFI's get their 1000 hours, they don't want them to feel like they can't wait to leave and go off and get a tour gig, or GOM, etc. They would prefer it if they loved working there, and simply slide over to the commercial side of the house. That's the thing that most impressed me. I also think that if he had elaborated on that in the video, what he is getting criticized for here would make a little more sense to everyone.

 

 

If the school does 135 ops then why wait until 1000 hours? You only need 500 hours to get it (provided you also have the night and xc), why not slide them over then?

 

Do they really do so much commercial work that every CFII can slide over at 1000 hours leaving room for new CFIIs to take over the teaching side?

 

How many students do the have? How many CFIIs do they have? How many helicopters do they have?

[Flying Pig]

Generally a flight school that has a decent 135 side either has separate employees who do that aside from the school, or they have one of their higher time CFIs tapped for the job already. The couple of schools Ive attended, that job wasn't anything you thought about getting into. If it panned out, great, but it wasn't a reason to attend the school.

[pilot#476398]

Generally a flight school that has a decent 135 side either has separate employees who do that aside from the school, or they have one of their higher time CFIs tapped for the job already. The couple of schools Ive attended, that job wasn't anything you thought about getting into. If it panned out, great, but it wasn't a reason to attend the school.

 

That has been my experience too. The one CFI who gets that job, never leaves!

[iChris]

I definitely want to look into the 135 side of things as you mentioned. Thank you.

 

You should be concerned with every aspect of your school’s activities because it will affect the quality of your flight training. You’re just a student; however learn the system and how it works.

 

Most of these schools operate through a network of business entities. Using holding and operating companies as an asset protection and tax planning strategy that helps to limit liability risks to their business structure.

 

The ideal business structure consists of an operating entity that does not own any vulnerable assets and holds most of the liabilities (mainly their responsibility to provide the resources for your flight training). That’s why you should never allow any school to hold large sums of your money in the form of pre-payments.

 

Then there’s the holding entity that actually owns the business's assets. With this structure, the business owner can eliminate (or, at the very least, substantially limit) liability for both business debts and personal debts.

 

Take a look at the aircraft’s registration next time you pre-flight. Who are the owners? Most likely the aircraft is not under the school’s name. However, some less vulnerable assets like older aircraft may remain under the school's name as a façade.

 

As one example, the registered owner of the Bell 206L N902EH in ULA’s video is Tumbleweed Leasing Company, Inc. That company is owned and operated by the same principal owners as Upper Limit Aviation, Inc. In many companies, each aircraft is held by a separate holding company or individual and then leased back to the operating company at a markup.

 

What this all means is they know the rules and how the system works. They’ve taken steps to protect themselves. If the ULA operating entity fails, the owner’s real assets are preserved in the holding companies. Your deal as a student is with the operating entity, which has little assets and lots of liabilities, you loose everything.

 

Public records (Utah.gov) show the registered principals of all the following entities are the same individuals. However, this is all legal and part of the free market system.

 

UPPER LIMIT AVIATION, INC

 

UPPER LIMIT FLIGHT SERVICES, INC

 

TUMBLEWEED LEASING COMPANY, INC

 

IKARUS AVIATION, LLC

 

REID AVIATION, LLC

 

COLLEGIATE CONSULTING SERVICES, INC

 

WORLDHEALTH 4 EVER, LLC

 

N206BY, LLC

 

Edited November 16, 2013 by iChris

[Wally]

...

Then there’s the holding entity that actually owns the business's assets. With this structure, the business owner can eliminate (or, at the very least, substantially limit) liability for both business debts and personal debts.

...

As one example, the registered owner of the Bell 206L N902EH in ULA’s video is Tumbleweed Leasing Company, Inc. That company is owned and operated by the same principal owners as Upper Limit Aviation, Inc. In many companies, each aircraft is held by a separate holding company or individual and then leased back to the operating company at a markup.

...

What this all means is they know the rules and how the system works. They’ve taken steps to protect themselves. If the ULA operating entity fails, the owner’s real assets are preserved in the holding companies. Your deal as a student is with the operating entity, which has little assets and lots of liabilities, you loose everything.

...

Public records (Utah.gov) show the registered principals of all the following entities are the same individuals. However, this is all legal and part of the free market system.

 

Philosophic tangents to some very sound points-

An attorney might argue (perhaps self-interestedly) that 'corporate protections' can be overcome in many cases. Assets are always at risk and regard every weapon as loaded.

The system as presented is not inherent in a free market system. Our uniquely contorted tax and liability structures have the tree barking up the dog on some occasions...

Edited November 16, 2013 by Wally

[Spike]

 

 

Most of these schools operate through a network of business entities. Using holding and operating companies as an asset protection and tax planning strategy that helps to limit liability risks to their business structure.

 

The ideal business structure consists of an operating entity that does not own any vulnerable assets and holds most of the liabilities (mainly their responsibility to provide the resources for your flight training). That’s why you should never allow any school to hold large sums of your money in the form of pre-payments.

 

Then there’s the holding entity that actually owns the business's assets. With this structure, the business owner can eliminate (or, at the very least, substantially limit) liability for both business debts and personal debts.

 

Take a look at the aircraft’s registration next time you pre-flight. Who are the owners? Most likely the aircraft is not under the school’s name. However, some less vulnerable assets like older aircraft may remain under the school's name as a façade.

 

As one example, the registered owner of the Bell 206L N902EH in ULA’s video is Tumbleweed Leasing Company, Inc. That company is owned and operated by the same principal owners as Upper Limit Aviation, Inc. In many companies, each aircraft is held by a separate holding company or individual and then leased back to the operating company at a markup.

 

What this all means is they know the rules and how the system works. They’ve taken steps to protect themselves. If the ULA operating entity fails, the owner’s real assets are preserved in the holding companies. Your deal as a student is with the operating entity, which has little assets and lots of liabilities, you loose everything.

 

Not to mention what happens when things go bad…..

 

I unfortunately worked at a company that had a fatal. The media only reported the name of the company holder of the involved machine and never mentioned who operated it….. Therefore, for the sake of marketing, our accident record was clean……

[rollthbns]

Just thought I would drop in my two cents here. It might not be worth an entire two cents, but what the heck.

 

First of all, business is just that. Free enterprise, and a current VA program that funds this training has created a few of these places. Universal is doing or in the process of developing many of the same things. I can recall in the not too distant past flight schools clamoring for ways to get students financed because entities like Key Bank and Sally Mae went a running after the Silver State deal. Enter the new VA benefits. If you were a flight school and could arrange the relationship, it was a lifesaver.

 

I would never offer criticism of an organization that I know little about, so I can't really go down that road on this issue. I can however object to some of the assertions made in the video. I do feel like they are somewhat misleading and misguided. I will just say that out of all the people I have hired over the last two years, which totals about 80 pilots, not a single candidate won a spot because they had a few hours in a turbine ship, or moved a couple of tires around on a line.

 

Tour operations, while seemingly benign circles upon endless circles are anything but entry level positions. Anyone that would underestimate the level of responsibility placed on you, or underestimate the value of the training and experience, isn't really thinking it through. There are many days when you will be taking an entire family out into some very extreme conditions. They place in you that sacred trust that you are bringing them all back. In the end, a majority of us are flying "tours" anyway. People and things moved with a helicopter from point A to point B. Levels of passenger interaction may vary.

 

If you are a student of the school in question, or any other offering the extras, think hard about it. I would trade a turbine transition for more EP work. Same with a longline course. Fun information to absorb, no doubt. I would just let my first employer foot the bill for it. We do it all the time! No matter where you are doing your training, OWN IT. Be vigilant that you are getting the best possible instruction for the dollar, regardless of who is footing the bill. When its your turn to instruct, ALWAYS look out for what is best for your pilots in training.

 

That felt a lot like 3 or four cents. Sorry for rambling. Fly Safe!

[Flying Pig]

Excellent post

[pilot#476398]

 

I will just say that out of all the people I have hired over the last two years, which totals about 80 pilots, not a single candidate won a spot because they had a few hours in a turbine ship, or moved a couple of tires around on a line.

 

 

 

I don't even bother putting my 10hrs turbine on my resume anymore.

[Flying Pig]

I'd still put it down.....just keep it context. I know a guy who is getting plenty of left seat time. But the pilot is starting it, taking off, getting to altitude and then passing it off to him. He flies straight and level and then the pilot goes on the controls with him for landing. He's going to look mighty funny when he gets a Jet Ranger gig and can't start it. But if you ask him, he's "loggin' turbine time".

[WolftalonID]

Isnt it just the shiny red button with the rocket ship on it? Press that till you see flames come out the back end and add more fuel! :0. Thats how the coyote did it on roadrunner this morning....its got to be close right?

[Flying Pig]

Yeah that it. Wait until the little needle passes the red dot and you are good to go.

[WolftalonID]

Got it... Added to check list...making note of who to reference to my chief pilot when questioned why the little birdie wont fly today......( " sir, respectfully a cop told me to........so I did.....and there ya have it" , gestering towards to smoking ruble of what once represented some well spent money.....) lol.

[Falko]

?..There are many days when you will be taking an entire family out into some very extreme conditions. They place in you that sacred trust that you are bringing them all back. In the end, a majority of us are flying "tours" anyway

I was surprised reading your statement. But maybe it caught my attention due to the fact that lots of hems accidents happening in marginal/ extreme weather conditions across the US.

 

As far as risk assessment goes, why would you take up a family for a helicopter tour KNOWING that very extreme wx conditions exist ?

[aeroscout]

I was surprised reading your statement. But maybe it caught my attention due to the fact that lots of hems accidents happening in marginal/ extreme weather conditions across the US.

 

As far as risk assessment goes, why would you take up a family for a helicopter tour KNOWING that very extreme wx conditions exist ?

 

 

He didn't say extreme weather conditions. He said extreme conditions. By that I take the educated guess that he is talking about heat, DA, and the desert landscape.

You might also be able to extrapolate that the conditions are high hot and heavy. Filed elevation around Vegas is over 2,000 feet, with over 40C or 100F and low altimeter setting that could account for close to a mile high DA. I'm guessing that many tour departures take place at or near gross weight.

I know those conditions add extra risk, but certainly manageable.

[pilot#476398]

I'd still put it down.....just keep it context. I know a guy who is getting plenty of left seat time. But the pilot is starting it, taking off, getting to altitude and then passing it off to him. He flies straight and level and then the pilot goes on the controls with him for landing. He's going to look mighty funny when he gets a Jet Ranger gig and can't start it. But if you ask him, he's "loggin' turbine time".

 

If you were to look at the aircraft flown list on my resume then technically its still there, but the seperate catagory of Turbine has been removed,...and probably won't be back until I'm flying one for a living.

 

...I think I still remember how to start it?!

[gary-mike]

The concerns on this thread as well as some in the past are well founded, I have shared these concerns in past threads. I have witnessed the effects of these concerns, much sooner than hoped for. Hopefully my timing was early enough to ride it out.

[Jaybee]

Bottom line, end of the day - out of the 3 Chief Pilots I know, not one of them cares where you trained at.

 

Hanging around the shop, I may get a high-five from one of the guys for going to Bristow like he did, while all the guys from Hillsboro make fun of us because we wore helmets when preflighting, while the guy from Universal boasts how great his instructor was.... whatever, no one cares.

[Flying Pig]

You preflight with a helmet on?

[ChopperJ]

You preflight with a helmet on?

Everyone at Bristow wears a climbing helemet when preflighting or maintaining aircraft. Somewhere in Europe or Africa someone fell off a helicopter and hit their head so now it's a company wide policy.

[Flying Pig]

Ive seen people do that pre flighting on a Huey or an S92.... but never on a 300C or an R22. But OK..... the top of my bald had would probably have a few less scars on it if I at least wore a hat when I preflighted!

[Spike]

It’s an element of their SMS….. Soon to be everyone's....

[Wally]

Everyone at Bristow wears a climbing helemet when preflighting or maintaining aircraft. Somewhere in Europe or Africa someone fell off a helicopter and hit their head so now it's a company wide policy.

 

Do you also get fat pencils?