The industry taboo subject....."oh no he didnt"

[pilot#476398]

So Cav have you asked ULA about that video?

 

Oh' and by the way. If you're looking for some "unnecessary" training I've got some hours in a Jet Ranger you can have. I'll sell 'em to ya for 10 bucks, they've just been sitting in the back of my closet collecting dust these past few years. Come to think of it, I've also got a handfull of LE hours I paid for a few years ago that no one's cared about either,...you can have those too!

 

 

...and hang in there Wolf, you're not alone. My 700 hours is hoping for this next Spring rotation also!

[CavGruntXIX]

Thanks for the input WolftalonID. Luckily in the civilian world I have made demo videos and the like for marketing purposes, so I sincerely understand how things happen and get blown out of proportion, that being I do understand your angst though.

 

Having personally spoken with Mike, I can tell you he is a likable guy, was honest (backed up by everything I had read or heard before or since), and having just been kinda burned by a fixed wing school, my wife and I went in with a sceptical eye and we still came away very impressed by everything we saw and heard. Mike literally spent nearly half a day with us, I greatly appreciate his answering every question I had and then some - even when he knew I wouldn't like the answer. I felt like he didn't sugar coat much of anything, most of my concerns did revolve around the job market/industry following graduation or after being a CFII for a period of time. He bluntly told me that ULA does not hire every graduate as an instructor, doesn't get much more honest than that, not everyone would make a good teacher.

 

As far as hours when I graduate, I can say that at this moment in time I don't know. I know if all goes according to plan I will have my CFII certification and Bachelors in a general business program.

 

From my perspective the situation in every market place seem to change very rapidly, the ratings/hours needed today might be radically different three years from now when I graduate (I'll be in a Bachelors program at SUU as well) so honestly I'm just going to keep my head down, bust my butt at school and at ULA, gain as much time and experience as possible. In the end, I hope to graduate a better, more hireable individual. I've got a wife and children to support, this whole thing is a very serious deal for us.

 

I am really excited about being a helo pilot, I've admired the guys in the front of every type of helicopter I've been in the back of - Marine Corps CH-53's, 46's, and Army Blackhawks, some of my best and worst memories involve helicopters. I look very forward to being that guy up front!

[Jaybee]

Well,,, it sounds like you have it all figured out.

 

Good luck.

[CavGruntXIX]

Pilot#476398

 

Here's the deal, I (and most intelligent people - not that I claim to be horribly intelligent) don't base such an enormous decision on a recruiting video. I got over that sort of thing at about the age of 18 when I joined the military and came to the realization that life isn't really like the movies or recruiting videos for that matter. My 18+ plus years of being a Marine and now Cavalry Scout, on the ground, in combat here and there has been both much more horrible and much better than any recruiting video could ever possibly convey.

 

I think it's a bummer that you are so very wrapped around the axle about a few words in marketing film. I understand your point about the miss leading verbiage at a couple of points, frankly I do not care about that, (gasp!), I made my choice based on numerous points, many of which I gleaned here on the various forums. I also based it on speaking with students at the school, other vets that speak the same language I do, and every one of them was positive. Same with guys on this forum that are currently going to the school. I also have noticed a decided lack of ULA graduates on this or any site griping about not having a job, I'm sure they exist, but every one is different as will be their ability to be hired - perhaps he or she is just a jackass?

 

As far as apologizing, having been a company shill in a different industry I can tell you that trying to address every complaint posted on-line is a near impossibility so most companies will put their time and effort to better use. It's not nice but that is the reality of it.

 

I can see your point about training in a specific airframe as possibly a waste when the company you are applying to doesn't employ their use, that makes sense. To my knowledge its a Long Line course, an NVG course, and a turbine transition course all of which is done above 5,800ft. due to the airport's altitude. This all seems pretty general and possibly useful in the future. Am I planning on those things alone getting me hired? No, but it can't hurt, also I will let the VA decide what is wasteful and what isn't.

[CavGruntXIX]

Well,,, it sounds like you have it all figured out.

 

Good luck.

Not by a long shot Jaybee, I do however know the difference between a promotional video and easily verifiable reality.

 

For instance, I just got back to the armory from a field op, if someone was to ask the 6 soldiers in my squad their thoughts on what just happened you would have 6 completely different answers.

 

I approached this enormous decision the same way and formed a little thing I call my own opinion. Perhaps I am terribly wrong, I hope not, but again a lack of actual students or former students whining relentlessly about the school leads me to believe that Upper Limit Aviation must be at least a fairly solid institution.

 

I'll be sure to let you know how things go. I appreciate your concern.

[pilot#476398]

Pilot#476398

 

Here's the deal, I (and most intelligent people - not that I claim to be horribly intelligent) don't base such an enormous decision on a recruiting video. I got over that sort of thing at about the age of 18 when I joined the military and came to the realization that life isn't really like the movies or recruiting videos for that matter. My 18+ plus years of being a Marine and now Cavalry Scout, on the ground, in combat here and there has been both much more horrible and much better than any recruiting video could ever possibly convey.

 

I think it's a bummer that you are so very wrapped around the axle about a few words in marketing film. I understand your point about the miss leading verbiage at a couple of points, frankly I do not care about that, (gasp!), I made my choice based on numerous points, many of which I gleaned here on the various forums. I also based it on speaking with students at the school, other vets that speak the same language I do, and every one of them was positive. Same with guys on this forum that are currently going to the school. I also have noticed a decided lack of ULA graduates on this or any site griping about not having a job, I'm sure they exist, but every one is different as will be their ability to be hired - perhaps he or she is just a jackass?

 

As far as apologizing, having been a company shill in a different industry I can tell you that trying to address every complaint posted on-line is a near impossibility so most companies will put their time and effort to better use. It's not nice but that is the reality of it.

 

I can see your point about training in a specific airframe as possibly a waste when the company you are applying to doesn't employ their use, that makes sense. To my knowledge its a Long Line course, an NVG course, and a turbine transition course all of which is done above 5,800ft. due to the airport's altitude. This all seems pretty general and possibly useful in the future. Am I planning on those things alone getting me hired? No, but it can't hurt, also I will let the VA decide what is wasteful and what isn't.

 

Actually I don't really give that big a sh*t about the bogus claims of skipping the first tier job and going right into EMS. Personally I'd like to fly tours.

 

Its the long line, NVG, and turbine transtion courses that this, and many other schools, are marketing to those with free money that I'm wrapped around. But hey, I'm sure you'll enjoy all that time spent doing those things,...at least they'll be a break from all that time you'll need to spend sitting in a 22 developing the skills you'll actually need on that first job!

[Spike]

After as much research as I could do on forums such as this, speaking with a few pilots in the industry, and physically visiting the school, I have decided to attend Upper Limit Aviation and will be moving up there from San Diego in two weeks.

 

 

 

If you want the real skinny on this business then I suggest you consider holding off your move for a week or two and attend HeliExpo. It’s in Anaheim which is a short drive from SD and a place where you can speak face-to-face with all kinds’ industry insiders. There, maybe you can gain some insight from someone who’s walked-the-walk and not from someone who just talks-the-talk……. Or better said, learn from someone who has “boots on the ground” in the helicopter business…..

[CavGruntXIX]

Sounds good, we are moving up to Cedar City regardless, our house is sold and we have a new one up there. I'll check into the dates for HeliExpo, that sounds like a great idea. Thank you for the suggestion.

 

Any other thoughts? Anybody know how I can rotate my profile picture so it isn't sideways?

[Jaybee]

Not by a long shot Jaybee, I do however know the difference between a promotional video and easily verifiable reality.

 

 

You seem narrowly focused on only one thing. Video bad ? yea. Not the basis for my opinion however. You seem to be flippant about what experienced professionals are telling you. Traditionally your employer teaches you long line, NVG, turbine transitions etc, etc. Heck for that matter my first employer "transitioned" me into a 44.

 

Anyhow, more concerning to me - the accident rate. 11 since 2005. The reason I said it was unverifiable is because if you have ever spent any time in the NTSB Aviation Accident Database a lot of times the accident will not be listed under the Company Name that did the flight training but under some random LLC name or something that isn't obviously connected to the name of the business this is common in the business to insulate from lawsuits and protect images.

 

By comparison, looking in the database this morning with a training fleet of 75 aircraft I only see 3 accidents since 2005 with Bristow Academy. If you were to talk to anyone at Bristow about those 3 accidents then it would adamantly be 3 accidents too many. Did that whole "when you fly as much as we do" BS line you spouted actually come from someone at the school ? That has got to be the most moronic thing I've ever read in my life.

 

As a veteran myself, it does grind my gears to have the VA money pissed away. When they first introduced the Post 9/11 Bill, people were going to Embry Riddle and the like spending buttloads of cash and justifying by saying just what you said. Well, if you had been around during that time then you would also know that the VA put the brakes full stop on any flight training for over a year's time if I remember correctly. Hey, but you got yours so its all good right !

 

Lastly, as you stated yourself you're opinion of the school is formed around current students of the school. In other words, people who have not worked a day in this industry other than possibly in the training industry. As said earlier in this thread, try talking to people who have progressed beyond that point of their careers (ironically, like people talking to you on this thread). No one cares where you got your training at when you get out into the "real world". As noted in other threads, if you were around at the time on this website you would have talked to and read about Silver State students speaking positively and defending their school too.

[WolftalonID]

Mmmmm silverstate........... Sounds like a good expensive hard drink at a ritzy night club!

 

Why yes sir....I'll have a SilverState on the rocks....... ( pun intended? You decide! )

[CavGruntXIX]

Jaybee, I never wrote the "BS" line, "when you fly as much as we do", I am not sure where you got that from.

 

As far as being flippant, I'm not trying to be flippant. It seems to me that there are a few guys on here with an axe to grind against this particular school. I hear what you are saying, and I try to take all things into consideration. Pilot#476398 insinuated that if I don't have major problems with that video then I am a horrible douche bag. It's a little hard to not start talking things personally at some point. Same thing with your statement that "I got mine". I have served for 18+ years now and I have yet to draw a penny, so roll your eyes all you want, I have not gotten any of mine yet.

 

The reality is that I'm 44 years old, my wife and I have had a goal of moving to Cedar City, Utah long before I learned about ULA. Going to that particular school will help us kill a few birds with one stone. Like I wrote earlier we have already sold our home in San Diego and have gotten one in Cedar City, I jumped through the hundreds of hoops with SUU and the VA so this missile is pretty well launched.

 

If you don't think it matters what school you go to once you get out into the job market it really shouldn't matter then, should it? Beyond the "wasteful" in your estimation, extra training.

[CavGruntXIX]

Hey Bar Keep, make my Silverstate a double please.

 

I actually attended one of their seminars here at Gillispie Field many years back.

[pilot#476398]

. Pilot#476398 insinuated that if I don't have major problems with that video then I am a horrible douche bag.

 

 

Really? That's what you took from my posts!?

 

Good luck dude.

[CavGruntXIX]

Thanks Sport!

[WolftalonID]

Hey dont let us get under your skin too much! We are all A holes with different flavors! Lol.....

 

Some just a tad more sour than others.....just wait a few weeks when some other more famous guys here are released from "vacation" and real fun begins!

 

Honestly, its cold, wet, foggy, and miserable outside right now.... We have nothing better to do but find the worm and post drunk..... Or sober cant say for us all, but either way, if it was sunny, hot, and dry most would be working, or on the lake vs looking to stir up a fish!

[Spike]

The reality is that I'm 44 years old, my wife and I have had a goal of moving to Cedar City, Utah long before I learned about ULA. Going to that particular school will help us kill a few birds with one stone. Like I wrote earlier we have already sold our home in San Diego and have gotten one in Cedar City, I jumped through the hundreds of hoops with SUU and the VA so this missile is pretty well launched.

 

If you don't think it matters what school you go to once you get out into the job market it really shouldn't matter then, should it? Beyond the "wasteful" in your estimation, extra training.

 

While it may sound like some of us have an agenda your right! The agenda is; some of us are trying to look out for you. Or better said; some of us “have your back”. However, this is the internet and the true intent of the message is often lost in cyberspace. That being said, don’t take what is said personally. What you should do is attempt to read between the lines and figure out what is best for you and your family, which you’ve apparently already done…

 

Just know this, all entry level helicopter jobs pay below poverty level income. The average timeframe between entry level (CFI) and an entry level turbine gig (and no, you will not be able to skip this) is about 5 to 10 years. That is, 5 to 10 years making poverty level income…. This is a reality of this business and just about every pro-helo-jock has gone through it. The helicopter business is not the military or even remotely comparable to any other commercial industry or business where the cream of the crop rise to the top. Ask any successful pilot and they’ll tell ya, this business is about sacrifice and a selfish one at that……

Edited February 10, 2014 by Spike

[CavGruntXIX]

Spike and WolftalonID, I appreciate that. There comes a point at which it does get personal unfortunately, Pilot#yatayata crossed that line a couple of times, I'm a bit tired of his BS.

 

Like I said, I have already made the descision to go to ULA, I have a hard time changing course two weeks out so....when my choice is being repeatedly attacked of course it makes me question myself, it makes me nervous about my future and the future of my family so it is extremely personal, does that make sense? Pilot# literally said I'm a dirt bag if I don't find that stupid video appalling, I don't like exaggerating or falsehoods to be for sure but this choice wasn't made based on that video, I'm rarely shocked that marketing guys sugar coat reality. Pilot# definitely pissed me off, I don't believe he was "helping", at that point his opinion went out the window.

 

I've had discussions at length with my wife regarding the super low pay that newer pilots receive, she currently "claims" that is okay...we'll see eh? I'm glad that while I'm in school I'll be shining up my résumé with a business degree.

 

You guys that have actually lent advice, I am grateful for. I have roughly three years before I'll be marketable in this industry if all goes well - I hope it does. If not I'll be working at some financial brokerage, heh, maybe then I could just buy my own R44 and just enjoy flying...

[Velocity173]

Two excellent posts by Jaybee and Walton on the previous page and Spike on this page. CAV, read those and let it sink in.

Just wanna make sure you realize the hiring requirements of the industry. This video is completely misleading and not just from the EMS / firefighting comment. After your "three years" to be marketable in this industry, the only thing you'll be marketable for is CFI. You'll be competing with a dozen other VA applicants all competing for one CFI position that pays in the mid 20s per year.

As far as all those little quals that they advertise, no one cares about that. You could have some Army dude with 300 hrs with similar quals and you know what? No one in their right mind is going to hire them. It's about saving money and reducing risk. A company isn't going to pay huge insurance premiums on a 300 hr pilot when they can pay a fraction on a 3,000 hr pilot. Not to mention the less risk involved in hiring the 3,000 hr guy. Speaking of the Army guy, you'll be competing against them when it comes to your first tour job if indeed you make it that far. There's a crapload of them who were sent through flight school in the past 10 yrs and they're starting to get out now looking for jobs that the Vietnam guys are vacating. Ironic how one war fills a gap for another.

Unless one plans on getting at least 2,000 hrs out of ULA, they sure aren't going to get hired on in EMS. It's not only an insurance requirement but in most operations, a CAMTS certification requirement. Doesn't matter who you know, how good looking you are or what kind of stick skills you think you have, they aren't going to budge on that.

Having said all that CAV and being a former DD myself, I wish you the best of luck. You definitely have the motivation to pursue this career. I work with a few civilians who took the route that you're planning and with some hard work and a bit of luck, they made it. It can happen, just be realistic and ALWAYS have a backup plan. I tell former enlisted friends who are thinking about the GI Bill route to go for it but be prepared to have commercial license sitting in your wallet for years while you're working some other job and hoping to get your first flying gig. Be prepared for those ratings to turn into nothing more than a hobby that you do in your spare time as well.

Good luck to ya man.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Velocity173

[Flying Pig]

Ill explain why I was fairly vocal (if that applies to typing) People like real world examples… so here you go. Im living proof that a few turbine hours aren't going to get you to the front of the line in the civilian market. Im at 1,400hrs turbine helicopter, with about 1,550 airplane (so almost 3000TT) dual CFI… 750+ night, just broke 600 NVG, 1000 xctry, mountain, long line and a host of other things. I operationally fly the MD500, OH58 and UH1H.

 

I look at things as they come up because Im always curious. Pilots are notorious for wondering whats over the next hill What I get back is "Great resume, when you hit 2,000 helicopter (a few have said 1,500 because its all turbine) definitely let us know." I wouldn't call any of these positions "entry level" but its still the same deal. But they were EMS, utility and one was a Fire job. So exactly what the ULA guy described I could step into with "turbine time".

 

Fortunately I do work as a pilot so its not an issue. Im an LE pilot so its obviously a different set up. But its always interesting to see what civilian companies are looking for in case you come to work one day and there is a "closed due to budget cuts" sign in the window. Basically, if for some reason my unit closed down before I hit that mark….. I could be in a world of hurt.

 

Thats why what that guy says in the video just floors me. I don't know the guy, don't need to tour his school. All I did was watch his commercial.

[CavGruntXIX]

Velocity and Flying Pig, I greatly appreciate your input, seriously great incite.

 

I didn't even see that video until one of the guys here pointed it out, it honestly had zero bearing on my choice. I wouldn't believe you can skip levels in the first place, everyone has to pay their dues that's how life works.

 

I did a boat load of reading regarding the various stages a pilot must go through as you progress through your career, it was a matter of great concern between choosing rotary vs. fixed wing to he honest. I still would rather fly helicopters. Rightly or wrongly I'm going to the school I have chosen, I will strongly suggest they pull that recruiting video the next time I am at the hanger - roughly two weeks after we have moved to Cedar City.

 

Thank you again.

[Spike]

Rightly or wrongly I'm going to the school I have chosen, I will strongly suggest they pull that recruiting video the next time I am at the hanger - roughly two weeks after we have moved to Cedar City.

 

 

Sir, this isn’t about a video. It’s about you and your family’s future and, at 44 you should know the difference. Why would you think if you “strongly suggest they pull the video” it would make any bit of difference? Why would you think you have that kind of influence? And, why would it matter?

 

Seriously, you’d be a nobody student who is supported by the VA telling a company who profits from the VA to curb the reason why YOU enrolled in the first place...

 

You’re an adult and should understand life is about choices. If you choose to go this direction, the chances of you being hired upon graduation are reduced by a factor of 100….. And, if you ask them after-the-fact if it makes a difference, they can choose to tell you the truth, -or not……

 

The reason why I come here is to present a message based on experience. If you don’t want to listen, then I have no desire to speak……..

Edited February 11, 2014 by Spike

[Flying Pig]

At this point, you as a student… Id suggest you leave it alone. The last thing you want to do is show up on day 1 of your job interview and start demanding they pull an unethical commercial. Keep in mind, you are wanting a job there, so Day 1, Lesson 1 is your first job interview for that CFI position you need. I wouldn't go in and start pointing fingers. I wouldn't be nervous or second guess your decision. Its just important to know the deal. If you were going there thinking you would be graduating with a $75K per year job, then you would be in trouble.

 

And from what I gather…. you chose ULA without even seeing the video we are talking about correct? Attend the school, attend college, and have fun. The rest of this stuff is all just a heads up. Go in knowing the school has set a precedent for exaggerating how this works and just keep it in the back of your mind.

 

Just like you are always taught in the military…. If it sounds to good to be true, its because it is.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Flying Pig

[WolftalonID]

Except for diet Dr. Pepper....... Its really that good!!!!

[CavGruntXIX]

Diet Dr. Pepper really is that good! Thank you for the laugh WolftalonID, needed that.

 

Once again, valid points Spike and Flying Pig - just so you know Spike I honestly do take everything said into advisement and appreciate the time you guys have taken. So much so that last night I had a couple hour long talk with my wife about flying helicopters just to make sure she really understands a few of the possible post graduation scenarios, hard to do that without sounding overly pessimistic I found. She says she's still in because it's my big life long dream.

 

I will roll with your concept of "first day/first job interview" Flying Pig. Very good advice. I have a problem with being overly honest with the powers that be at times, this really may be a point at which I keep my yap shut. I really appreciate that wisdom, it's going to be tough to remember that I'm not a Staff NCO with influence at this school.

[Jaybee]

Jaybee, I never wrote the "BS" line, "when you fly as much as we do", I am not sure where you got that from.

 

As far as being flippant, I'm not trying to be flippant. It seems to me that there are a few guys on here with an axe to grind against this particular school. I hear what you are saying, and I try to take all things into consideration. Pilot#476398 insinuated that if I don't have major problems with that video then I am a horrible douche bag. It's a little hard to not start talking things personally at some point. Same thing with your statement that "I got mine". I have served for 18+ years now and I have yet to draw a penny, so roll your eyes all you want, I have not gotten any of mine yet.

 

The reality is that I'm 44 years old, my wife and I have had a goal of moving to Cedar City, Utah long before I learned about ULA. Going to that particular school will help us kill a few birds with one stone. Like I wrote earlier we have already sold our home in San Diego and have gotten one in Cedar City, I jumped through the hundreds of hoops with SUU and the VA so this missile is pretty well launched.

 

If you don't think it matters what school you go to once you get out into the job market it really shouldn't matter then, should it? Beyond the "wasteful" in your estimation, extra training.

In another thread (I think) someone else pointed out that there were 11 incidents/accidents since 2005. In my mind considering the shear number of hours that students are racking up over the course of nine years, that really doesn't sound bad to me.

 

 

That is essentially what you said - I did paraphrase.(emboldened quotes)

 

I have no skin in the game, I'm not in the training industry. Realistically, you will probably get a good education at ULA but I really don't know anything about them other than their fantastically bad recruiting video and the fact that they push "additional training" as a way to "get ahead" (I used quotes because I am paraphrasing). Any helicopter business post-Silver State should be acutely aware of their advertising agendas.

 

I think that pushing additional training on VA students because they know they are tapped into a "gold mine" is a waste of VA funding - that is my opinion, agree or disagree I don't care. I'm sorry you have not used your benefits yet and that is the entirety of my point. Abusing the system will eventually lead to others who have yet to use their benefits being denied the use of them. It has already happened once. The term that comes to mind is "blue falcon".

 

Plenty of testimony on this website in this thread and others; from people less experienced and more experienced than I; that this additional training is unnecessary and at times even prohibitive to future learning, law of primacy and all. This is not intended to be slanderous to the training industry but sincerely an example if you will - learn long line training from a 200 - 600 hour pilot who learned how to long line from another 200 - 600 hour pilot who learned... who learned... OR learn to long line on the job from someone who has thousands of hours of real world long line experience. Now I am getting off point a bit,,,,,,

 

Anyhow, good luck - sincerely.