Upper Limit, Salt Lake City, UT

[troll.detector]

Anyone have an up-to-date opinion on that operation? I heard one rumor that they are on the verge of losing their contract with the college. Anyone?

[rick1128]

I visited their operation in Cedar City yesterday. Everyone seemed quite positive and busy. I saw 5 R44s on the ramp and they didn't sit very long. Plus I saw a few things that I felt were very big positives of the organization. As for posibly losing a contract, I didn't hear any thing.

[Flying Pig]

I don't think any ever questioned the quality of the school. What was questioned was how they are recruiting and convincing people to come spend their money there. Some vet is going to be really torqued when he finds out that there is no short cut to the end of the rainbow.

[Fred0311]

Pm sent

[Spike]

5 R44’s??? In the past, I’ve worked for 3 different schools and all operated without an R44.

[Flying Pig]

When the GI Bill changes, there are going to be a bunch of R44s and 66s coming on the market at discount prices.

[WolftalonID]

Im saving my christmas card money for one right now!.....wait how big a discount we talkin here?

[gary-mike]

Many schools use the R44 for instrument, even schools with no veterans attending. Upper Limit now has three schools open and they move helicopters to accommodate the student load. This is not to say that Cedar City has a bunch of instrument students though, it could be part of it. Another part of the excess of 44's compared to 22's is a combination of the average weight of a majority of students, and the altitude. I chose to lose weight and fly the 22, at least for my private. I plan to do my CFI in the 22 as well.

 

My point is, there are some valid reasons for the fleet Upper Limit maintains and what ship a student flys is under their control. I was borderline on weight limits for the 22 and they were going to put me in a 44. When I asked how I would be able to meet the SFAR 73 requirements for the 22, I was not satisfied with the answer, so I exercised more and ate less. Since I started flying and computing weight and balance and performance, I gained an understanding for why the ULA weight limit for the 22 was under the Robbinson limit of 240 lbs.

[pilot#476398]

Many schools use the R44 for instrument, even schools with no veterans attending.

 

Yeah that scam started way back, when the only requirement to getting an 80k student loan to pay for it all, was to have a pulse! Ah' the good old days!

 

As for weight. If you're too fat for the 22, fly the 300. If you're too fat for the 300,...lose weight, 'cause your fat ass is gonna have a real hard time finding an entry level job!

 

The R44 is just a school's money maker!

[gary-mike]

Pilot# blabla

 

I was not intending to market my school, nor justify using more than required for a rating or certificate. Although, my 180 lb fat ass could probably stand to lose an additional few pounds, my current active duty schedule only allows me 1.5 hours a day at the gym. (45 min actual gym time ) yes I could go off duty but I must admit I take my dual major serious enough to fit between off duty time and my kids.

 

I am willing to hear your suggestions for a school located around Hill AFB that offeres a program including an S300 that would accept my benefits which I earned through my 15 years of service.

[WolftalonID]

Don't let that skin sweat Mike.....

 

My school has four R44's now. All of them are our instrument trainers. We concluded that at our summer time high DA, the extra instruments in the 22 reduced W&B too much to allow the heavier instructor/students combinations enough fuel to conduct proper training.

Along with doing the instrument training in the 44, it puts you right at the required hours needed to teach in it!

The S300 is a great machine, but there isn't too many jobs past school using them. On the other side of that coin, many operators use the 44 for tours, ranching, tuna boats, utility, etc. No job using a 44 will let you jump in one with S300 time only.

[jeffs]

What is the weight restriction on the whole R22? I will not lie, I'm fat being 6ft and 220lbs, I been working out but more of a bulking weight tying to get bigger before I cut down. Should I be headed in the opposite direction and lose weight?

[Spike]

Many schools use the R44 for instrument, even schools with no veterans attending. Upper Limit now has three schools open and they move helicopters to accommodate the student load. This is not to say that Cedar City has a bunch of instrument students though, it could be part of it. Another part of the excess of 44's compared to 22's is a combination of the average weight of a majority of students, and the altitude. I chose to lose weight and fly the 22, at least for my private. I plan to do my CFI in the 22 as well.

 

My point is, there are some valid reasons for the fleet Upper Limit maintains and what ship a student flys is under their control. I was borderline on weight limits for the 22 and they were going to put me in a 44. When I asked how I would be able to meet the SFAR 73 requirements for the 22, I was not satisfied with the answer, so I exercised more and ate less. Since I started flying and computing weight and balance and performance, I gained an understanding for why the ULA weight limit for the 22 was under the Robbinson limit of 240 lbs.

 

To be clear, my comment wasn’t intended to spur a conversation about how this school conducts their business and I’m quite sure the school provides valid reason why they-do-what-they-do to their unsuspecting customers. In any case, the true intent of the conversation was to get people to think. Therefore, if the R44 is so necessary, how did students accomplish certification prior to its release into the marketplace? If the scuttlebutt claims no instruction occurred at altitude or students weights were limited, that’d be a false claim. Funny enough, I too was at 180 while bombing around in an R22....

Edited December 7, 2013 by Spike

[pilot#476398]

Pilot# blabla

 

I was not intending to market my school, nor justify using more than required for a rating or certificate. Although, my 180 lb fat ass could probably stand to lose an additional few pounds, my current active duty schedule only allows me 1.5 hours a day at the gym. (45 min actual gym time ) yes I could go off duty but I must admit I take my dual major serious enough to fit between off duty time and my kids.

 

I am willing to hear your suggestions for a school located around Hill AFB that offeres a program including an S300 that would accept my benefits which I earned through my 15 years of service.

 

Wasn't attacking you dude, just the insistance by so many schools that we use the R44 for training. Which is why my IR cost twice as much as it should have!

 

180lbs is not too fat!,...and I weigh 200lbs!

 

My suggestion would be for your school to replace their 44s with 300s.

 

I can't help but be reminded of a post I read here not long ago from a guy who was hired to fly a 44 with no 44 time. He was even chosen over many others who did have 44 time (yes I hate that story, because I was foolish enough to buy a butt load off 44 time, but it makes a good point)!

 

No one should ever pay for more than 10 hours in an R44!

Edited December 7, 2013 by pilot#476398

[WolftalonID]

Why 10 hrs? SFAR73 only specifies 5 in the 44, to act as PIC.

Pilots with 200 hrs in helicopters 10 hrs in Robinsons, 5 of which need be in a 44 to act as PIC of the 44.

However, to get a job teaching in a 44 you need 25 minimum in a 44, 50 total in Robinsons.

 

I like having gotten to fly both a 22 and a 44. Great machines in anyway you look at it. I would much rather fly a 44 over a 22 anyway. That said, I understand why they say if you can fly a 22 you can fly anything!

[pilot#476398]

What is the weight restriction on the whole R22? I will not lie, I'm fat being 6ft and 220lbs, I been working out but more of a bulking weight tying to get bigger before I cut down. Should I be headed in the opposite direction and lose weight?

 

The weight limit per seat is 240lbs. However if the total for both the pilot and passenger equals around 400lbs, give or take, your CG will most likely be too far forward.

 

If I'd weighed 220lbs I would have seriously considered attending Bristow (if I had done my research,...which I didn't).

[yzchopper]

Jeffs,

R22 weight is 240 per seat and that includes 50lbs for baggage under the seat if any is carried. 165-190 is ideal weight for the R22.

[apiaguy]

The rhetoric here is pretty typical of why thread continues to grow.... The Robinson vs the rest

 

Schools have made their case for Robinson products and the sfar helps them solidify it.

There is no question that going to an r44 instrument school will cost you more than one that offers a different instrument platform... The benefit.... That you meet r44 and 22 sfar requirements....

I think pilot# has a good point. There is no need to be flying r44's. If the school had students as their primary interest they would probabally use a different instrument trainer... That would negate the need to instruct in the 44 and reduce its high cost paid by the student.

The 44 is a great ship... But it costs too much to be used for extensive training... It costs more than a jetranger a used to cost and nobody considered getting their ratings in that. The number of tour ops with 44's is considerable but you'd only need the 10 hrs to do that. I guess a truely good school would have 3 types of airframes to prepare their studemts

Edited December 7, 2013 by apiaguy

[pilot#476398]

Why 10 hrs? SFAR73 only specifies 5 in the 44, to act as PIC.

 

 

For those who do all their training in the 300,...or an Enstrom.

[WolftalonID]

Well again...why 10? 5 hrs of the ten can be in a 22.

[pilot#476398]

Well again...why 10? 5 hrs of the ten can be in a 22.

 

Not all schools have 22s, some just have 300s for training and a 44 for photos, tours, and the like.

[WolftalonID]

You mentioned the enstrom. That would be a fun trainer. ....

 

Sorry...our poor OP lost his thread, lol!

[pilot#476398]

Its funny how some threads mutate, but oh' well.

 

I flew an Enstrum once, they're pretty cool! Real easy to fly and they glide like a feather.

[Retreating Brain Stall]

Its funny how some threads mutate, but oh' well.

 

 

I like big rotors and I cannot lie...............

[Jaybee]

Never flew a 44 until I was asked to fly one commercially for a paycheck. Never flew a 22 either. 10 paid for hours with a CFI later, I was giving tours.

 

Every pilot has stick skills. What skills you have other than stick skills is what gets you a job. The quicker ya'll figure that out the quicker ya'll will get a job.

 

This school vs that school. That helicopter vs this helicopter, no one who hires people at a place that matters cares, not one bit.