60 course at Rucker

yakfishr19 · February 13, 2014

Starting the Hawk course tomorrow. I selected 60M but will start off flying the Alpha. Any inputs or advice about academics, flight line, and expectations?

Velocity173 · February 13, 2014

5 & 9. Cautions, Warnings and Notes during start up and shutdown.

akscott60 · February 14, 2014

How did it go?

WaterRooster · February 14, 2014

I just finished Mike academics. 5&9, warning caution notes, anything with a star in the checklist is a detailed procedure and you have to know all the sub steps. That includes the preflight. Goes for both the A/L and M. Good luck and it's a BLAST!

Joe_P148 · February 14, 2014

Always thought that was funny considering the -10 specifically says not to memorize the preflight

CharyouTree · February 14, 2014

Unless they've changed in the last year:

You are not required to memorize the steps with detailed procedures. It makes the day go MUCH better though. Both for demonstration of your attitude and motivation, as well as getting off the ground and out to actually fly. I only gave one student a U for the detailed procedures, and it was a week in, and he had NOTHING. Wasn't so much that he didn't have the steps memorized, as when I backed him up, he still didn't know what to do. Came in the next day like a changed man, though. ...weird

Same thing for preflight. The expanded steps are a nice to know, and there are some mnemonics to help you out, but if you make copies of the associated pages from Ch 8 in the -10, or buy the little 5, 8, & 9 book from the Hangar and reference that through your preflight, you shouldn't be dinged.

Grading is done in reference to the ATM, Tasks 1022, and 1024 specifically in this case. (Perform pre-flight inspection, and perform before starting engine through before leaving helicopter checks).

edit: you do need to know the notes, cautions and warnings.

I always used the "are you abiding by them", and "can you regurgitate it if I do ask" approach, but I didn't require a verbatim regurgitation of everything on every startup. For example, starting the APU, I didn't want to hear the notes unless asked, just reference that you know about them. *Accum low* "First note."

IP experience will vary.

Edited February 14, 2014 by CharyouTree

yakfishr19 · February 15, 2014

Thanks guys. I'm currently just working on the run up at Goodhand or the library so it's coming along slowly. Starting the CPTs in a week but trying to get ahead if the game as much as possible.

akscott60 · February 15, 2014

How many sim/CPT periods before the first flight?

Joe_P148 · February 15, 2014

Dr hill, find a study partner and chair fly your run ups over and over. Notes cautions warnings try to get them down verbatim, do you have to? No. But your IPs will appreciate it.

When you get down to the flight line lets us know who your ip is, I have a ton of friends down thier teaching. Good luck.

WaterRooster · February 15, 2014

Charutree, I wish that were the case haha we are being told to memorize the detailed procedures as well as the sub steps on preflight. The one time I tried to use my 5,8,9 I was told no, and to get my -10 but I would get a U for the day because preflight was a P3 item at that point. I know a checklist shouldn't be memorized and that I had a leg to stand on if I said I didn't agree, I also just wanted to get up and fly and ignoring it was the best way to do that. So I checked my 5,8,9 anyway and moved along.

W,C,N it's a "your own words" thing after the IP gets the idea you know what your talking about. There is a really good version on quizlet that is condensed. It helps a lot because it's in words, not -10 words ha

Velocity173 · February 15, 2014

Charutree, I wish that were the case haha we are being told to memorize the detailed procedures as well as the sub steps on preflight. The one time I tried to use my 5,8,9 I was told no, and to get my -10 but I would get a U for the day because preflight was a P3 item at that point. I know a checklist shouldn't be memorized and that I had a leg to stand on if I said I didn't agree, I also just wanted to get up and fly and ignoring it was the best way to do that. So I checked my 5,8,9 anyway and moved along.

W,C,N it's a "your own words" thing after the IP gets the idea you know what your talking about. There is a really good version on quizlet that is condensed. It helps a lot because it's in words, not -10 words ha

There's the general policy. At least it was when I was there. To make preflight / run up go by faster, they wanted to have the students memorize the sub steps.

Problem with that, is there was no official policy in writing because it contradicts what the -10 says. I sat in a safety brief one day and saw IPs arguing about the issue. At the end, our stands guy essentially said that it's not too much to ask the students to memorize the sub steps. Said it showed desire, motivation. To which another IP replied that we were holding them to higher standard than ourselves. As you can imagine, we had a lot of disagreement on the issue.

Same thing when our BDE CDR came out with a new -10 test and the students weren't allowed to miss a single question. Had a policy that students couldn't fly that day if they failed. First class that took the test, only one student flew that day! That policy letter didn't last long.

They still teaching 30 / 30 rolling takeoffs? 30 % TRQ and 30 kt airborne.

Joe_P148 · February 15, 2014

They still teaching 30 / 30 rolling takeoffs? 30 % TRQ and 30 kt airborne.

Umm what? 30 kias and 30%?! How is this conducive to building aviator thinking?

I've never understood why Rucker does what they do you would think after all the rotations of IPs coming from the line units we could change the way we reach our next gen of aviators.

Velocity173 · February 16, 2014

Umm what? 30 kias and 30%?! How is this conducive to building aviator thinking?

I've never understood why Rucker does what they do you would think after all the rotations of IPs coming from the line units we could change the way we reach our next gen of aviators.

It was a canned scenario that stands was trying to simulate. I don't remember the exact numbers but I wanna say it was 6,000 PA, 20 C & 20,000 lbs. The FSXXI instructors pilot guide said to go to the bottom at 10 % less than the MAX TRQ (30 min). You move up to the gross weight, move to the TAS line and note takeoff speed (30 KTAS). This airspeed will allow dual engine flight at 90 % TRQ available.

For training: Use 5-10 % below the aircraft 10 ft hover TRQ to simulate the max TRQ available and 30 KTAS for the takeoff speed.

So basically some IPs taught 30 % as simulating the ATM "maintain power, as necessary" to get to the 30 KTAS and then 5-10 % below hover (45ish) as the climbout TRQ.

Some IPs completely disregarded the training standard and taught their own thing. I saw very few IPs even explain to their students why they were using 30 KTAS for takeoff speed.

It was one of the many standards that was used in the FSXXI training guide that was different than the ATM standard of the maneuver. Of course those students had to flush all that when they got to their first unit.

Joe_P148 · February 16, 2014

Why wouldn't you want to just get above your SE airspeed though? Max TQ 30 min just doesn't cut it at high GW high PA you need everything you can get.

Velocity173 · February 16, 2014

Why wouldn't you want to just get above your SE airspeed though? Max TQ 30 min just doesn't cut it at high GW high PA you need everything you can get.

For that scenario (A model) there isn't one. Stands wanted to simulate a condition where you couldn't hover OGE but with a rolling takeoff you could get airborne and using the extra 10 % to climbout. Apparently the scenario came from high altitude runways down in the Hondo area using A models.

UH60L-IP · February 16, 2014

Advice for starting academics, or more specifically making sure you are ready for the flightline

At a minimum know your 5 & 9s verbatim. The underlined steps are mandatory and non-negotiable. It is not a bad idea to have a working knowledge of the non-underlined steps as well. It will help you to fill in those blanks on the 5 & 9 exams you WILL receive the day you meet your IP.

Absolutely know your warnings, cautions, and notes. They do not have to be verbatim but I should not be drawing them out of you either. The sooner you convince me that you know them the sooner I will stop asking you them every day. The intent is not that you regurgitate words but that you apply them. If you say, "Reclaiming the back-up pump per the note" it is obvious that you know the note.

A basic proficiency at start-up is necessary. Checklists are there to be used, but they are not there to be read slowly and as if you are trying to interpret hieroglyphics. Expanded procedures may be referenced but if every time you look at them it seems as if it is the first time your grade will rightfully reflect that. Do yourself a favor and make start-up procedures a priority. If I am waiting an hour for you to start-up the aircraft you are cutting into training time. My attitude might reflect that.

You are graded on start-up/shutdown. That includes motivation, attitude, and retention (all boxes that get checked in your grades). Does your ability to conduct start-up reflect positively or negatively on those graded qualities? Further, you are graded on crew-coordination. If I have to prompt you for every single thing you would have a difficult time arguing that you are an effective crewmember.

Finally, in your spare time, become familiar with the Flight Line Supplement. It provides basic PI level information on the systems, from Hydraulics to Pneumatics to Drivetrain. 95% of your checkride systems questions will be answerable by knowing the Flight Line Supplement.

You would do well to familiarize yourself with the Flight Training Guide, available on the E. Co. website. It tells you the tasks that you will be responsible for each day and what areas will be graded, both orally and in flight, on each checkride.

Cockpit Trainers/Simulators prior to flight

You will have 5 hours of cockpit trainer time, which is actually 10 because you and your stick-buddy are both in the trainer while the IP is watching you (so 5 each for you and your stick buddy). That will take 5 days. Once you move to the flight line and meet your actual IP you will have a pre-flight day, one flight day, three simulator days, two flight days, one simulator day, and then a bunch of flight days.

Rolling Take-offs

This is not a graded maneuver. It is presented for familiarization only. As such, there is no real standard as to how to teach it. I generally tell the student that we are simulating that we do not have enough power to take-off to a hover. I say, "We are going to pull in 45% TRQ (10% below hover), simulating that we are actually pulling in max TRQ and still not able to pick up. We'll start like we are taxiing forward but simply pull into that 45% TRQ. You will feel the aircraft actually want to lift off the ground. Let it and simply hold that 45% TRQ until I abort the maneuver." Again, it's a presentation for familiarization but not a graded maneuver.

Velocity173 · February 16, 2014

Wow, didn't realize you all took rolling takeoffs off the check ride. No CMF, Ranger, slings, multiship, terrain flight NAV. Back to basics.

UH60L-IP · February 16, 2014

It's worse than that.

Rolling takeoffs, vertical takeoffs, navigate by pilotage and dead reckoning, tactical flight mission planning, terrain flight (basically all combat skills) - all of these are FM (familiarization tasks) only. We have Contact and Instruments, that's it, before they go to nights or the M course. Combat skills is nothing more than an ungraded part of Contact - basically when we are tired of flying a traffic pattern on any particular day we'll go hit a couple of RTs and come back. If I want to do multi-ship I just grab another IP and say, "Hey, let's head out the NW corridor multi-ship on the way to Brown."

I'm not saying that we don't do them, just that the student is not held to any standard for them...... and I am speaking for A/L only. I haven't kept up with what they do in the M model course once they leave me.

Velocity173 · February 16, 2014

It's worse than that.

Rolling takeoffs, vertical takeoffs, navigate by pilotage and dead reckoning, tactical flight mission planning, terrain flight (basically all combat skills) - all of these are FM (familiarization tasks) only. We have Contact and Instruments, that's it, before they go to nights or the M course. Combat skills is nothing more than an ungraded part of Contact - basically when we are tired of flying a traffic pattern on any particular day we'll go hit a couple of RTs and come back. If I want to do multi-ship I just grab another IP and say, "Hey, let's head out the NW corridor multi-ship on the way to Brown."

I'm not saying that we don't do them, just that the student is not held to any standard for them...... and I am speaking for A/L only. I haven't kept up with what they do in the M model course once they leave me.

I had heard it had gotten bad. Most of that stuff you mentioned were graded during pre 2008 FSXXI. I won't argue the significance as to why those things were removed. Obviously money was a big part. I've also heard from IPs in the field that they would have to show them those tasks anyway during progression, so why bother evaluating them at Rucker.

Originally the Army accepted the higher costs of FSXXI in order to get students through faster and be at an RL2 level when they graduated. Kinda drifted away from that.

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2006/June/Pages/ArmyAviaters2950.aspx

Edited February 16, 2014 by Velocity173

UH60L-IP · February 16, 2014

...and that is the justification. We don't know whether they are going to VIP, Medevac, Air Assault, or anything else. Trying to teach them mission tactics is probably best left to unit IPs.

Nonetheless, they have gone way overboard in my opinion. I'm pretty sure that any UH60 pilot will at one point, and likely regularly, need to perform a vertical take-off, fly formation, and navigate with a chart. Simply familiarizing them with mission skills is fine in my book, but purposefully not grading them on essential base tasks inherent to all missions is not so fine.

They get out to the units and the IPs are going to say, "Those idiots at Rucker didn't teach you how to do a rolling take-off?" No, no, we didn't. We'll some of us teach those skills but we don't have to.

I tell my students, "I am molding you from a hunk of metal into a car. You will get to your unit and they will make you into a Chevy, Ford, or Kia (if you go to Korea)."

t.o.n.y · February 16, 2014

5&9 a must. NCW as well. After that I'd say systems because it felt like some IPs were more concerned with you knowing that then they were with your actual flying.

If you've made it this far you'll be fine