waterlanding/sealanding Helicopters with floats

[Jaybee]

If I remember right the place in St Louis does their tours off a barge, might want to ask them.

 

Yes I'm FB pm me.

[chris pochari]

If I remember right the place in St Louis does their tours off a barge, might want to ask them.

 

Yes I'm FB pm me.

it's a rather large barge that's permanently moored in the river?.

[r22butters]

Might I suggest a chopper with fixed floats?

[chris pochari]

Might I suggest a chopper with fixed floats?

I thought of that, Now that you remind me maybe it would make more sense than all the barge nonsense. The only thing I'd worry about is it tipping over if a big wave comes.

[r22butters]

Actually I was just thinking that they say a lot of times when something goes wrong its right after takeoff and so there might not be enough time to inflate pop-outs if you're taking off from a barge?

 

By the way there is a guy in Sausalito with a 407 you'd be competing with who's been there for years!

 

,...and according to Youtube he likes to fly under the bridge a lot, something I always thought was a no no?

 

Anyway, good luck with it!

 

,...and mind the fog its a real bitch, not to mention those frickn' ballgame TFR's!

Edited April 30, 2018 by r22butters

[chris pochari]

Actually I was just thinking that they say a lot of times when something goes wrong its right after takeoff and so there might not be enough time to inflate pop-outs if you're taking off from a barge?

 

By the way there is a guy in Sausalito with a 407 you'd be competing with who's been there for years!

 

,...and according to Youtube he likes to fly under the bridge a lot, something I always thought was a no no?

 

Anyway, good luck with it!

 

,...and mind the fog its a real bitch, not to mention those frickn' ballgame TFR's!

 

good point, Tuna helicopters have their floats out all the time, it's safer. Yes there are actually three tour operators in the Bay Area. Having competitors is usually a good thing since it means there're customers! The Sausalito guy has two 407s, a total of four in the last 12 years, plus a 427. I've taken the tour, it's great but it takes 40 minutes to travel from downtown SF to the airport or the Sausalito helipad.

[Eric Hunt]

We looked at this for Sydney back in the 90s, to get around planning permissions on land, the lack of acceptable landing spots, and the current ruling political party which was violently anti-helicopters.

 

The logistics are horrendous, needing somewhere on the barge for the waiting passengers to be held, away from the operation of the chopper - waiting rooms, toilets etc; transport to and from the barge - a covered boat and driver, plus somewhere to put the pax ashore that doesn't charge ridiculous fees to use their pier; somewhere to wait ashore for the next boat; moving the barge around to avoid the limits on the numbers of landings for any particular spot; either keeping fuel on the barge (another planning nightmare) or flying away to the nearest airfield to top up; in the end we admitted defeat.

[chris pochari]

We looked at this for Sydney back in the 90s, to get around planning permissions on land, the lack of acceptable landing spots, and the current ruling political party which was violently anti-helicopters.

 

The logistics are horrendous, needing somewhere on the barge for the waiting passengers to be held, away from the operation of the chopper - waiting rooms, toilets etc; transport to and from the barge - a covered boat and driver, plus somewhere to put the pax ashore that doesn't charge ridiculous fees to use their pier; somewhere to wait ashore for the next boat; moving the barge around to avoid the limits on the numbers of landings for any particular spot; either keeping fuel on the barge (another planning nightmare) or flying away to the nearest airfield to top up; in the end we admitted defeat.

All excellent points. You mention needing somewhere on the barge to store passengers, the best way to overcome that issue is to only shuttle the number of people that are going to fly on the aircraft. When I took the SF tour they only take 6 people at once in their van, so no one has to wait. I believe that Dan Crowe is right, some type of ship that can accommodate tourists and helicopter landings could revolutionize the tour helicopter industry for the better. http://www.helicopterinvestor.com/articles/palm-beach-helicopters-launches-new-concept-for-tourism-industry-649/

[Eric Hunt]

 

 

the best way to overcome that issue is to only shuttle the number of people that are going to fly on the aircraft.

If you are going to make money, you want the machine running as much as possible. Having it sit, shut down, on a barge waiting for the pax to arrive is not the way to turn a profit, especially for a turbine. You don't want to be starting up and shutting down for every load, and waiting for the shuttle boat to take the last lot to shore and come back for more.

 

That's why you need to have the pax on the barge, suited up and ready to fly. They can't be on the deck, because your barge is small, nowhere to shelter from the downwash (which will blow sea spray over the deck) and H&S wouldn't like it unless they were a rotor length away from the edge of the disk anyway. The chopper may need to approach into wind, and then turn to align with the deck, and pax on the deck would inhibit such a thing.

[chris pochari]

If you are going to make money, you want the machine running as much as possible. Having it sit, shut down, on a barge waiting for the pax to arrive is not the way to turn a profit, especially for a turbine. You don't want to be starting up and shutting down for every load, and waiting for the shuttle boat to take the last lot to shore and come back for more.

 

That's why you need to have the pax on the barge, suited up and ready to fly. They can't be on the deck, because your barge is small, nowhere to shelter from the downwash (which will blow sea spray over the deck) and H&S wouldn't like it unless they were a rotor length away from the edge of the disk anyway. The chopper may need to approach into wind, and then turn to align with the deck, and pax on the deck would inhibit such a thing.

Well I suppose to solve that issue would be to use two boats, keep the aircraft running and schedule it so the ferry boat arrives just when the aircraft has landed. You're absolutely right about cycle times, most tour operators will try to ferry in and out as many people in one hour as possible. Maybe it would be better to house people on the actual vessel, barge/pontoon. Housing people on the vessel is definitely a good alternative solution, if scheduling the ferrying operation turns out to be too difficult, especially with the issue of cycle times for turbines as you mention.

[Hobie]

. http://www.helicopterinvestor.com/articles/palm-beach-helicopters-launches-new-concept-for-tourism-industry-649/

 

Regarding this idea of a boat w/helipad. Fail. Can't see a boatload of people waiting or for that matter enjoying their time sitting on boat waiting for their turn to fly. Tourists want to pack a lot or stuff or nothing into a short period of time. Asking them for an hour or 2 for just for a 20 min ride isn't going to sit well.

 

Spend a lot of time with your marketing plan. Without a line of people waiting for rides, well you know the story.

[r22butters]

You know in Vegas they take people out to the Canyon and serve them lunch. Not a bad idea, so,...

 

Get a decent sized boat, put an R44 Clipper on the roof. Then offer to take out groups of people for a lunch cruise around the Bay, including a helicopter ride for an additiinal $30 bucks.

[LJS1993]

You know in Vegas they take people out to the Canyon and serve them lunch. Not a bad idea, so,...

 

Get a decent sized boat, put an R44 Clipper on the roof. Then offer to take out groups of people for a lunch cruise around the Bay, including a helicopter ride for an additiinal $30 bucks.

 

What type of lunch? I'm thinking salmon or crab.

[chris pochari]

 

. http://www.helicopterinvestor.com/articles/palm-beach-helicopters-launches-new-concept-for-tourism-industry-649/

 

Regarding this idea of a boat w/helipad. Fail. Can't see a boatload of people waiting or for that matter enjoying their time sitting on boat waiting for their turn to fly. Tourists want to pack a lot or stuff or nothing into a short period of time. Asking them for an hour or 2 for just for a 20 min ride isn't going to sit well.

 

Spend a lot of time with your marketing plan. Without a line of people waiting for rides, well you know the story.

 

I have not explained my self properly, I never recommend making people wait on a boat, I mentioned using a small ferry boat to transport people from the nearest dock to the vessel, at most this would take 3-4 minutes if the vessel is 2 miles away, small ferry boat would cruise at 35 mph. Flynyon's customers have to drive to the Keany NJ heliport take to their open door rides, which is at least 30 minutes from downtown NY with traffic.

[Eric Hunt]

 

 

small ferry boat to transport people from the nearest dock to the vessel, at most this would take 3-4 minutes if the vessel is 2 miles away, small ferry boat would cruise at 35 mph

You are talking about a speedboat, not a ferry, which would make maybe 15knots.

 

And how many ferry docks would allow you to use them, or permit a helicopter operation near them, when such an operation would take away from their own cruise tours?

[chris pochari]

You are talking about a speedboat, not a ferry, which would make maybe 15knots.

 

And how many ferry docks would allow you to use them, or permit a helicopter operation near them, when such an operation would take away from their own cruise tours?

No, one of these http://www.allmandboats.com/watertaxi-638b.html I don't see how this would be any worse than a shuttle van

[chris pochari]

it would be great if someone built a heliport/EVTOL port on pier 30-32, only problem is by the time it gets approved we'll all be dead.

[r22butters]

http://www.stophelipad.org/helipads.shtml

 

San Francisco just isn't a friend to helicopters

[chris pochari]

http://www.stophelipad.org/helipads.shtml

 

San Francisco just isn't a friend to helicopters

I've seen this, It's not just San Francisco, NY has been having a battle about the heliport Downtown. Since you bring up the issue of widespread anti helicopter sentiment, how do you think EVTOL will deal will this problem? They have to build hundreds of new heliports around the country, I can't imagine them being closed off to conventional helicopters.

"Uber sees opportunities to use floating barges for these where rivers, lakes and bay areas are available, but other spots could include the top levels of multi-story carparks, or ground facilities in less populated areas".

[Eric Hunt]

We tried carparks in Sydney, but the owners get a LOT of money from the paying parked cars, and a helipad, plus approach and departure lanes, plus safety buffers, take up the space of over 50 cars. We couldn't afford to pay to keep those spaces open permanently on the off-chance that a customer would want to use that spot.

[r22butters]

I've seen this, It's not just San Francisco, NY has been having a battle about the heliport Downtown. Since you bring up the issue of widespread anti helicopter sentiment, how do you think EVTOL will deal will this problem? They have to build hundreds of new heliports around the country, I can't imagine them being closed off to conventional helicopters.

"Uber sees opportunities to use floating barges for these where rivers, lakes and bay areas are available, but other spots could include the top levels of multi-story carparks, or ground facilities in less populated areas".

If they make noise, then they'll most likely suffer the same fate as helicopter commuters. The only way to override the noise complaints is if the operation generates TONS of money, and they can buy someone off!

 

As for top levels of parking garages? Oakland has one of those (think it still says heliport on the side of the building). I used to park there whenever I'd go to the county recorder, the pad is still there (think it has an "X " on it now) and the elevator still has the "H" for the top button.

[chris pochari]

If they make noise, then they'll most likely suffer the same fate as helicopter commuters. The only way to override the noise complaints is if the operation generates TONS of money, and they can buy someone off!

 

As for top levels of parking garages? Oakland has one of those (think it still says heliport on the side of the building). I used to park there whenever I'd go to the county recorder, the pad is still there (think it has an "X " on it now) and the elevator still has the "H" for the top button.

They do make noise https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gIBujk7cAE

I think it's absurd to hinder the development/use of rotorcraft just because people are bothered by the noise.

[Eric Hunt]

 

 

I think it's absurd to hinder the development/use of rotorcraft just because people are bothered by the noise.

 

Chris, aren't you still at school? You might think it is absurd, but when you get into the real world, you will find that the NIMBY Syndrome will drive helicopters away even from airports, as has happened here.

 

"Trailbikes of the sky" and other stupid names for helicopters, and "perceived noise" (I can see a helicopter, therefore it must be noisy) are just 2 of the reasons the NIMBYs will push you away. And these little Ubers with their piddly rotors will scream like a banshee.

[chris pochari]

 

Chris, aren't you still at school? You might think it is absurd, but when you get into the real world, you will find that the NIMBY Syndrome will drive helicopters away even from airports, as has happened here.

 

"Trailbikes of the sky" and other stupid names for helicopters, and "perceived noise" (I can see a helicopter, therefore it must be noisy) are just 2 of the reasons the NIMBYs will push you away. And these little Ubers with their piddly rotors will scream like a banshee.

I'm sure you're right. will the EVTOL community have to give up on their dreams? The conventional helicopter industry has remained such a niche industry that noise really has not been a big issue except for areas with significant tour activity, mainly NYC. If EVTOLs proliferate I imagine it will become much larger than the current rotorcraft industry. The question is would the public be able to stop it?

[DizzyD]

The East Hampton airport is under review for possible closure by town officials driven by the noise complaints created by the sharp spike in rotorcraft activity since BLADE hit the scene.

 

https://www.newsday.com/long-island/suffolk/east-hampton-airport-noise-reduction-1.18129371

 

Sad.