wants to fly Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Ok, I am the FNG who about to take my check ride; so my flight exp.= 0. That being said, I have plenty of life exp. and I want to continue to live. 7 miles from the base and you think things are not right? I would have insisted he take me to the ground at the airport and called someone to come get me. Rather pay someone a case of beer for their time than spend eternity as worm food. Time as a pilot is irrelevant, desire to live is everything. My 2 cents. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odysseus Posted September 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 I said the same thing when I was a noob. Thing is when a real situation happens, its not all that easy to stick to your guns. In my last adventure of stupidity and luck I discovered that "get-there-itis" is a much more powerful force than I had ever imagined. I was overcome by it, and it definitely clouded my judgement! This time I was there to complete a mission. I traveled a great distance to hook up with this operation to build time, and I wasn't quite finished yet, so I didn't make a big stink about it and demand that I be dropped off at that airport, like I should have. My one track mind was focused on getting those precious hours and thus I was willing to stupidly endanger my life to get them. All I can say is, learn from my stupidity! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Pig Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience... well, that usually comes from bad judgement " - Unknown 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whistlerpilot Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 "Experience is what you get shortly after you need it." Also unknown 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoknows idont Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 All I can say is, learn from my stupidity! All I can say is, I find it increasingly ominous and irritating that you continuously dodge the questions about the nature of that alleged failure! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odysseus Posted October 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 All I can say is, I find it increasingly ominous and irritating that you continuously dodge the questions about the nature of that alleged failure! I realize I have no control over what is discussed here, but I would prefer to keep this about ADM/CRM which I believe is a far more important topic. However, I already told you where I posted the mechanics of what happened! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomPPL Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 However, I already told you where I posted the mechanics of what happened! Why not let us have the link for it then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odysseus Posted October 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Why not let us have the link for it then? First off, I don't know how to do that. Secondly; My god man how lazy are you! Its the same damn website! Just go to the Aerodynamics, Mechanics Forum and look for my name. Its the second one down! (the only reason its not first is because someone decided to respond to an 8 year old post)! Geeze Louize! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-any Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/topic/19204-my-mag-or-my-imagination/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 First off, I don't know how to do that. Secondly; My god man how lazy are you! Its the same damn website! Just go to the Aerodynamics, Mechanics Forum and look for my name. Its the second one down! (the only reason its not first is because someone decided to respond to an 8 year old post)! Geeze Louize! My initial reaction when I saw the title of your thread was that it was going to be another case of a low time know nothing pilot who thought he knew more than the instructor. I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt. Your recent posts indicate that I was misplaced in that generosity. You should have kept the mechanical information with this thread, as it's quite relevant. It's clear, reading the other thread you've started on the same subject, that you have absolutely no idea about the aircraft system or operation, even though you were careful to tell us that you're a rated pilot. You're making a number of assumptions, not the least of which is that you had some insight that the instructor didn't, based on what you think you know (but clearly don't). The attitude that you know more than you do, and that you're willing to make assumptions based on a high degree of ignorance is a dangerous one. While it's not a bad thing to make a conservative decision to get on the ground when there's a question about what's going on, in this case it seems evident that you had no idea what was going on and have made assumptions about the aircraft and the instructor. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odysseus Posted October 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 On second thought, never mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_P148 Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 The first time this happened I got the same reaction from the CFI as I'm getting from you. I'm just a lowtimer who thinks he knows more than the CFI. He insisted it was LTE (as did the chief pilot). To me it felt like the engine (possibly a bad mag I said), but they just ignored me. Then the next flight commenced and the engine failed, because of a bad mag the mechanic said. This time I felt the same thing. Could it have been something else? Sure. I have never claimed to be an expert. However since the CFI limped the ship back ready to auto at any second, I think its a safe bet that he too was concerned about the engine! But what do I know, I'm just a lowtimer!So you didn't actually see the engine fail? Mabye the engine failure in that particular aircraft is from something else. It would be quite rare for a person at your hour level to have two engine failures already. I don't necessarily think you did anything wrong but.... Alot of times new pilots are overly cautious about aircraft and emergency procedures. It can get a little irritating when new crew members are scared of everything. I think after you have more experience and you start flying with new people you'll understand. It's not about being unsafe it's about understanding your systems and knowing what level of risk to accept. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 On second thought, never mind. Interesting response for someone who really wants to have a discussion about aeronautical decision making and crew/cockpit resource management, as well as the mechanical aspects of the aircraft. You've started two threads in two forums about the subject, after all. You're nine posts total, several of which have been attacking other individuals here, this thread of which is addressing how much more you think you know than your instructor, and another thread which details just how much you really don't know about your aircraft, and now you don't want to discuss it? YOU brought it up. You've become quickly upset when more information was requested. No skin off anyone's nose if you don't want to discuss it, but it was you, after all, that introduced the matter in the first place. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Hunt Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 This is getting interesting!" He insisted it was LTE (as did the chief pilot). To me it felt like the engine (possibly a bad mag I said), but they just ignored me. Then the next flight commenced and the engine failed, because of a bad mag the mechanic said." Odysseus has deleted the description of the "failure", but how can "LTE" be confused with an engine problem? Perhaps a dicky magneto can cause minor repetitive yaw excursions, which can immediately be picked as a troublesome magneto.LTE, however, is something which any untrained pilot can name as the cause for his inadequate control of yaw. REAL LTE is rare as rocking-horse droppings, is almost exclusively the domain of old B206 with the small tail rotor, and almost never a problem in a Robinson product. Frank was a tail rotor expert from MD and designed a heap of excess power into his tail rotors. So, from the very limited info available, it appears that an inexperienced instructor had a problem with his student being unable to properly control the yaw. He took over from the student and went home. The student had a hissy fit and felt that the yaw problems were not his fault, it must have been a bad magneto, and told the instructor to land. But the instructor had 50 more hours than the student, so he knew better, and went home. Apparently, both these dudes deserve a kick in the tailboom. The student for not understanding the operation of a magneto, and for not controlling the yaw. The instructor for thinking that poor yaw control was the dreaded LTE. And the chief pilot, because he doesn't really understand LTE, should also be booted. A sad lack of knowledge, attributed to Lack (of) Training (and) Experience, LTE. But how can anybody analyse the problem? Hissy the student has deleted all reference to the incident, and all that is left is a bit of a quote. All that we can do now is speculate. But that's what these rumour forums are for, so get your popcorn and sit back to enjoy it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred0311 Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Specifics of this case aside I think this is a great topic. I've been on all three sides of this coin. Once as a commercial student I took controls from a CFI and returned to base because he did something monstrously stupid that still makes me shiver. Another time I spent an unpleasant day at an incredibly remote field waiting on mx for something a private student swore on his life was wrong but I knew wasn't. But why take chances? And another I flew back to base when the commericial student thought we should land. The instructor usually knows best but its you're life too and I would not be afraid to demand to be let out of the helicopter of I felt it wasnt safe. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ridethisbike Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Specifics of this case aside I think this is a great topic. I've been on all three sides of this coin. Once as a commercial student I took controls from a CFI and returned to base because he did something monstrously stupid that still makes me shiver. Another time I spent an unpleasant day at an incredibly remote field waiting on mx for something a private student swore on his life was wrong but I knew wasn't. But why take chances? And another I flew back to base when the commericial student thought we should land. The instructor usually knows best but its you're life too and I would not be afraid to demand to be let out of the helicopter of I felt it wasnt safe. Care to tell us specifics of your experiences? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred0311 Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Not publicly. Id be happy to talk about them with the people on here I actually know but I dont feel like being arm chair quarterbacked by the mob. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Then why bring it up at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred0311 Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Because I thought my point could be made without the details but perhaps I was wrong. In which case I apologize to anyone who wasted a few seconds of their life reading my post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearly Retired Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Helicopters are weird. Sometimes they do things that make you go, "WTF??" You have to be a little paranoid to fly them, but not *too* paranoid, you know? When I first started doing cherry-drying in the Sikorsky S-55, I obviously had very little time in the ship. One day while drying, I ended up hovering along a row of trees downwind. Suddenly the helicopter started beating and banging like it was coming apart. It only lasted for a short time and then stopped, but it was one of those, "Here we go!" moments. I sat up straight and checked all the gauges, but nothing seemed amiss. The engine in the S-55 turns 2,450 rpm. The tail rotor turns at 2,500 rpm. When you're hovering downwind in an S-55 the tail rotor can set up a vibration that will definitely get your attention. Change the nose angle slightly and it goes away. As it did. On its own. When I realized what it was, I took a deep breath and carried on, thankful I did not do something impulsive and wrong. I wish someone had told me about this personality "quirk" of the S-55; I definitely tell new pilots about it now so they won't be as surprised as I was. We learn the idiosyncrasies of the aircraft we fly. Perhaps the CFI in the original post of this thread had experienced that yaw-kick (or whatever it was) before. Perhaps he knew of the preceding mag failure. Perhaps he knew that the failure of *one* magneto does not cause a complete engine failure. Perhaps he knew that LTE *does not happen* in forward flight. Perhaps he had already looked for secondary indications and, seeing and feeling none, felt it was safe to go home. Perhaps he, as an employee of the company and a more-experienced pilot than you did not see it as an emergency "land as soon as possible" or even "land as soon as practical" situation. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps... It was probably the longest seven minutes of your life (the shortest seven minutes being your prom night, I'm sure).. In such situations there's not a lot you can do. Pilots fighting for the controls is never a good thing. Demanding that the CFI land and drop you off at the airport you were already at would have been reasonable. Demanding that the CFI make a precautionary landing en-route home would have been unreasonable. Off-airport landings have their own set of risks and hazards. So learn from this experience and when you get out on your own you can do whatever you want when the helicopter does something you did not expect and have not experienced before. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 ...So now we’re crawling seven miles back home at 70kts and 600’ while he stares at the tach ready to execute the perfect auto at any time.... Sounds to me like his cfi didn't know what was going on either. However as a fellow low-time guy I'm a little biased as I have flown with many cfis over the years and some of them do have that God complex and would never admit that a student could know something they don't (someone posted a rather funny video of that "Well I'M A CFI" attitude years ago). I myself once pulled out the RFH to show in black and white that my cfi was wrong during an argument, and even then he just grumbled it away,...as if the book was wrong too! If they had crashed (and lived) then the OP could say, "see I told you so", but oh' well? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotdogs Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 I myself once pulled out the RFH to show in black and white that my cfi was wrong during an argument, and even then he just grumbled it away,...as if the book was wrong too! That's because when an actual emergency occurs there is hardly ever a black and white answer. It's all shades of grey, and a black and white answer is no substitute for good decision making, judgement, and CRM. Had I executed and precautionary landing for every single nit-noid "book labeled" emergency I have had in an aircraft, I would have a lot of people questioning my judgement and probably hesitate to put me on a schedule for it. I have certain systems that I don't gamble with, but others that I am okay with pushing it a little further, and most of that just comes from experience and my co-pilot's recommendation/opinion. Every pilot comes up with their own bubble on what they are willing to push. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 That's because when an actual emergency occurs there is hardly ever a black and white answer. It's all shades of grey, and a black and white answer is no substitute for good decision making, judgement, and CRM. Had I executed and precautionary landing for every single nit-noid "book labeled" emergency I have had in an aircraft, I would have a lot of people questioning my judgement and probably hesitate to put me on a schedule for it. I have certain systems that I don't gamble with, but others that I am okay with pushing it a little further, and most of that just comes from experience and my co-pilot's recommendation/opinion. Every pilot comes up with their own bubble on what they are willing to push. No one cares! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotdogs Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 No one cares! Better reading than the weekly edition of an r22butters victimhood mentality blog that you plaster all over this forum. No we are not friends so don't post a smiley face in conjunction with another shitty joke. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 (edited) At least when I whine about my life I know what I'm talking about! You don't know sh*t about that argument I had with my CFI so don't post like you do! Edited October 4, 2015 by r22butters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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