rookie chopper Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 Hi all! Went up yesterday for another hour of training. Weather was a little windy but nice. I was working on my approaches and departures. I got my departure down however I am having a very difficult time terminating my approach. I get to where I am around 5 to 10 feet off the ground and I stop for a nano second and then all hell breaks lose. I am having a hard time trying to time the air catching up to me. Any suggestions would be helpful! I am enjoying the flying it is a great time. I was stuggling with hovering and I finally got that. I know it will come but when! Hopefully soon! Happy flying! Rookie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomer Pylot Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 In a helicopter you have to concentrate all the time, and the slower you go, the more you have to concentrate. The slower it gets, the more unstable it is. It's a matter of practice, but no matter how much or how long you've practiced, it still takes concentration. You can't relax and just sit there any time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helonorth Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 Many people don't realize it, but learning to do a decent approach is much harder to learn thanhovering, as you are finding out. " All hell breaking loose" and "the air catching up"(?) doesn'ttell me much. When you bring in the collective at the end, you almost have to force yourselfto move forward on the cyclic to keep yourself moving forward and down to your spot. Itain't easy, but it'll come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOATFIXERGUY Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 Most new helicopter pilots make this mistake. As helonorth sated, think "Forward and down, forward and down, forward and down." Many new pilots allow the forward speed to stop when they feel they are near the ground. This is not good. You have your spot picked out to land. Take the bird to that spot. Once you start doing landings on a cart or platform, you'll really appreciate this. With practice, you'll get the hang of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly N. Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 I'm not expert and have just started working on my final approaches a week or so back, but I was (and still am at times) having the same issue. One tip my instructor gave me that really helped was to pick a spot out in front of your intended stopping point and focus on that while coming in. It helped me as I wasn't so focused on my actual spot and was able to come into my intended stopping point without that premature slow-down/halt. Funny anecdote, on my last lesson I was working on this and had been doing o.k. when the instructor asked me to stop at a stop closer to the approach side of the ramp. I started my descent and had the spot nailed. He started telling me I was short and I would adjust and then go right back to thinking it was good and get a correction of being short again. I finally worked out what was happening when he pointed out where he wanted me to stop. I was actually aiming for a different (nearer) spot. Kind of funny, but I learned to make sure I know exactly where he means from now on. It's no good to do it right if you're aiming wrong Anyway, hope the tip helps you. It helped me. Of course, next time I'll be hosing up something I thought I had solid before. So it goes. Kelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rookie chopper Posted February 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 Thanks all! I will have some stuff to try. In the mean time I have been having so much fun flying. I get a little impatient at times but it will work out soon. Small movements Is key. In Michigan it has been a long winter trying to fly. My instructor went to Florida for month so between that and bad weather I have only been up a few times. Nicer days are coming so I will be able to fly more. Thanks so much for the help. Safe flying! Rookie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeloJunkie Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 Most new helicopter pilots make this mistake. As helonorth sated, think "Forward and down, forward and down, forward and down." Many new pilots allow the forward speed to stop when they feel they are near the ground. This is not good. You have your spot picked out to land. Take the bird to that spot. Once you start doing landings on a cart or platform, you'll really appreciate this. With practice, you'll get the hang of it. Right On Advice!! I transition out of a 300 into a R44 and I am running into the exact same problem. I like to stop about 2' from the ground at my spot instead of "Forward Down, Forward Down, Forward Down". We just started trying to get me to land on the cart used to tow my R44 to the hanger. I have NEVER felt so useless in my life. The first few times, I was not anywhere near getting on the cart in the correct spot, and even the last few (forward down, forward down, forward down) was a mess, but at least I landed on the cart in the end. For some reason for me in the R44, I always stop early and always stop instead of going all the way to the ground, and as soon as I stop, all hell breaks loose as you said above. Very humbling that is for sure!! So for now, I am working on getting back to the "forward down, forward down, forward down" that worked so well for me in the 300s. Good Luck - I am right there with you !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 For some reason for me in the R44, I always stop early and always stop instead of going all the way to the ground, and as soon as I stop, all hell breaks loose as you said above. Very humbling that is for sure!! Sorry, but thats not you, thats the 44. I went thru (still going thru) the same thing. The 44 swings a pretty good size blade, and when you get down to the last 3 feet you start flying into a lot of that downwash and turbulence. If I can keep my descent rate to the ground its a piece of cake. If I stop for some reason 2 feet off the ground, it can get humbling pretty quick. How do you like landing on the tips of your skids ?? That takes a few landings to get used to as well. Goldy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOATFIXERGUY Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 Sorry, but thats not you, thats the 44. I went thru (still going thru) the same thing. The 44 swings a pretty good size blade, and when you get down to the last 3 feet you start flying into a lot of that downwash and turbulence. If I can keep my descent rate to the ground its a piece of cake. If I stop for some reason 2 feet off the ground, it can get humbling pretty quick. How do you like landing on the tips of your skids ?? That takes a few landings to get used to as well. Goldy Goldy, Goldy, Goldy....sorry, it's not the R44...it's both of you guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 Goldy, Goldy, Goldy....sorry, it's not the R44...it's both of you guys. Yeah, I knew I was hanging it out there for someone to chop it off !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOATFIXERGUY Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 Yeah, I knew I was hanging it out there for someone to chop it off !!Yep! And I just couldn't pass it up...sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainchopper Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 Yeah, I knew I was hanging it out there for someone to chop it off !! In the 44 try slowing it down slower but sooner, that way you minimize the turbulance coming into the LZ, than once you have passed out of ETL commit to smoothly and slowly lowering the collective. to get a "setting a baby on the blanket" smooth set down in an r44 is near impossible sowhe I feel the back of the skids touch i just keep lowering smooth and slow but not try and overcorrect. What may seem like a rough landing is still a lot smoother than any fixed wing generally. Not saying you don't know how to do it goldy or that you are a rookie, I just know it is a tendancy for new guys (rookies such as myself) to do too much too fast too late, and the r44 will bring out the worst in you in that respect. just rememer early slow and smooth. When I first flew the 44 a year ago I hated it, one year and a couple hundred hours later I feel it is the best ship I've ever flown(not saying much ;-) ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkyMtnHI Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 Right On Advice!! I transition out of a 300 into a R44 and I am running into the exact same problem. I like to stop about 2' from the ground at my spot instead of "Forward Down, Forward Down, Forward Down". We just started trying to get me to land on the cart used to tow my R44 to the hanger. I have NEVER felt so useless in my life. The first few times, I was not anywhere near getting on the cart in the correct spot, and even the last few (forward down, forward down, forward down) was a mess, but at least I landed on the cart in the end. For some reason for me in the R44, I always stop early and always stop instead of going all the way to the ground, and as soon as I stop, all hell breaks loose as you said above. Very humbling that is for sure!! So for now, I am working on getting back to the "forward down, forward down, forward down" that worked so well for me in the 300s. Good Luck - I am right there with you !! I flew a 44 day before yesterday for the first time.. i am right at 40 hrs in 300s over the last couple of months training at Rotors in Denver. The school picked up the beautiful new instrument ship when Premier scaled back a couple of weeks ago.. i couldn't wait to fly it. i was completely amazed at many things but I've just started so I'm going to include a brief from one of the CFII's to the rest of the school.. it pretty much says it all. My last comment would be; if you can get in one of these ships for a couple of hours do it... you will instantly be spoiled, but more importantly (for fellow students) it will give you an idea what you have to look forward to after your training. aloha, dp (pasted from Rotors web site) """After a long time flying the 300-C, I decided to give the R-44 a try. It is different in many ways, from paperwork to cruise altitude, but it is worth spending the extra money.Don’t get too hung up on the SFAR. The “Awareness Training” is required and proves to be good review even if you do know all about helicopters. This is also a good time for you to compare and contrast the R-44 with other copters you have flown. Sort out the limitations and procedures before you get in the air.Preflight inspection is straight-forward, but you will want coaching the first few times. A lot of the same principles we all know still apply, but the details are specific to the R-44.You will find that there a lot more warning lights than on the 300-C.Starting and run-up are also easy, but again, do as the CFI teaches you. It will all be straight from the checklist. Rotor engagement requires only one switch movement. No “bumping” to avoid stalling the engine. There are some harmonic ranges that cause large vibrations. You will learn how to avoid them. Once up to flying RPM, everything smoothes out nicely.If you haven’t flown a hydraulic ship before, you are in for a treat and the CFI is in for some amusement as you get used to the feel. Don’t strangle the controls. Just relax a bit and make fingertip inputs. If you can’t find the coolie-hat trim switch, don’t worry- there isn’t one. Hydraulics obviate the need for trimming. Hydraulics also make changing radio frequencies safer and easier. You can let go of the collective with to twizzle the radio knobs without a fuss. If flying IFR, this will make life a lot easier.Takeoff principles are much like the 300-C, except the aft portion of the left skid is last to leave the ground in most cases. Just as with the 300-C, hover power is takeoff power. The transponder switches to ALT as you begin climbing, so you will get spoiled easily.You have much more performance available than the 300-C. This carries through all the way to landing. The principles are the same, but the speed and the feel are different. Cruise is over 30 knots faster than the 300-C, so you will need to begin slowing down farther from the LZ.Two Comm radios make gathering ATIS or AWOS easy and you can pre-set the CTAF for a second airport, or EFAS/Guard. The switching is pretty easy to learn.The governed throttle feels like a CFI managing the throttle for you. Don’t freak out and fight it. The governor does a good job and actually makes life easier for you, if you let it.Approach to landing is conventional. If you smoothly pull collective to hover power as you come out of ETL the R-44 will settle into low-ground effect with no fight.Landing feels a little different with hydraulics and no oleos. Again the principles are the same, but the feel is different. Remember which skid point left the ground last? That will touch first. Don’t insist on feather-soft landings. Take a little forward creep if needed and smoothly lower collective. Soft will come later, just don’t drift.Shutdown is also easily done by the checklist. The only thing that is really different is the rotor brake. There a few limitations associated with it, but it works well.Overall the R-44 seems to be a good machine. It offers a step up in performance and price, but much less than a turbine ship. It is a good intermediate, and should be flown by anyone with aspirations to make a career step into the turbine world. Happy flying.Prof T""" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rookie chopper Posted February 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 So buy the sounds of it I get to blame the helicopter! Sounds good to me. BOATFIXERGUY good one. sorry Goldy it was funny. Happy flying! Rookie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeloJunkie Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 Goldy, Goldy, Goldy....sorry, it's not the R44...it's both of you guys. hummm....and here I was just starting to think better of myself !! Thanks a lot !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeloJunkie Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 (pasted from Rotors web site) If you haven’t flown a hydraulic ship before, you are in for a treat and the CFI is in for some amusement as you get used to the feel. Don’t strangle the controls. Just relax a bit and make fingertip inputs. If you can’t find the coolie-hat trim switch, don’t worry- there isn’t one. Hydraulics obviate the need for trimming. Hydraulics also make changing radio frequencies safer and easier. You can let go of the collective with to twizzle the radio knobs without a fuss. If flying IFR, this will make life a lot easier. RkyMtnHI - Good input - I am over controlling and my instructor has consistently said that I need to get used to the hydraulics and that problem will go away. On the landings, I am able to get the ship down, but nowhere near as smooth as the 300. I am constantly getting stuck hovering in ground effect and weary of pushing through with the collective to make firm contact. My instructor makes it lok easy every single time and I get the concept of not stopping in ground effect, but "getting the concept" and getting my left hand to continue through is another matter all together. I am glad I am not the only person that seems to have had these issues, that means there is hope for me yet!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOATFIXERGUY Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 hummm....and here I was just starting to think better of myself !! Thanks a lot !! Glad I could be of help! Anyway, you'll get it. It just takes a little getting used to. You've got a new ship and a different rotor system. Remember when you were learning to hover for the first time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeloJunkie Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 Glad I could be of help! Anyway, you'll get it. It just takes a little getting used to. You've got a new ship and a different rotor system. Remember when you were learning to hover for the first time? Actually Yes I do - in fact it feels like just yesterday !! I have logged just over 7 hours in 4 flights in the R44 now and I figured by now I would have had it down pat. Granted a lot of what I have been doing is not just hovering and landings, but still I don't think it took me 8 hours in the 300 to figure out how to do a landing! I know things will get better, I have repeated that so many times to my own students that you would think I would know better by now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorCalHeliKid Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 The only thing I want to add to all this joking around is that if you pull power in gradually before you think you need to it will give you a little less drastic of a yaw at the bottom. If you wait until you are 5 ft agl and yank it in, youll have to ride the bull! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOATFIXERGUY Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 The only thing I want to add to all this joking around is that if you pull power in gradually before you think you need to it will give you a little less drastic of a yaw at the bottom. If you wait until you are 5 ft agl and yank it in, youll have to ride the bull! I'm glad you didn't joke around. We all know what happened last time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorCalHeliKid Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 I'm glad you didn't joke around. We all know what happened last time. Dying laughing, yeah wasnt that all my fault!!! Oh geez... this is what I get for trying to be serious, I should have known better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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