help with 180 auto's

[Trol]

I'm learning to fly in a Schweizer 333 and having some trouble with 180 left auto's. I set up my airspeed and once abeam my spot, drop collective and start my turn. I keep looking out to my left during my turn and my nose drops. Instuctor has to say "don't drop ur nose, watch ur rpm's" and "don't do that". I won't get into the he won't offer suggestions to help, cuz he says "we already been over that many flights ago."

Anyone offer tips on sight picture or which way to be looking? What is a good airspeed to be making the turn? I've just recently read that after lowering collective, it is best to slowly bring it up a tad to keep the rpm's in the green, don't wait till after the turn to do that.

He kept having me do em over and over and was trying to fix the problem on my own. This just frustrated him each time. Later said he couldn't understand why I kept making the same mistakes after he pointed it out. I'm extremely frustrated myself and this caused all kinds of related issues. I was even starting to miss some radio calls.

[ADRidge]

Simplest help I can give (I fly robbies, so I don't know how much will translate) but once you roll off, establish your rpms, begin the turn and raise the collective a tad to keep the RRPM's in the green, look at your airspeed, RRPM's, spot, repeat. Don't fixate on any one thing, because you've got like five things going on, and four will suffer.

 

I don't know if you do one continuous turn or two 90 degree turns and make a quick pattern out of it, but I've found two 90's will help you control RRPM's just a bit more. Less raising the collective, which makes your final and recovery easier.

[permison]

I'm learning to fly in a Schweizer 333 and having some trouble with 180 left auto's. I set up my airspeed and once abeam my spot, drop collective and start my turn. I keep looking out to my left during my turn and my nose drops. Instuctor has to say "don't drop ur nose, watch ur rpm's" and "don't do that". I won't get into the he won't offer suggestions to help, cuz he says "we already been over that many flights ago."

Anyone offer tips on sight picture or which way to be looking? What is a good airspeed to be making the turn? I've just recently read that after lowering collective, it is best to slowly bring it up a tad to keep the rpm's in the green, don't wait till after the turn to do that.

He kept having me do em over and over and was trying to fix the problem on my own. This just frustrated him each time. Later said he couldn't understand why I kept making the same mistakes after he pointed it out. I'm extremely frustrated myself and this caused all kinds of related issues. I was even starting to miss some radio calls.

 

This is pretty common with students. I had the same issue when I was learning. You need to get a sight picture for the aircraft level with the horizon and keep it there. I took an erasable marker and drew a line for level flight on the windshield. Once I kept the ship level in the turn and descent I had no problems. It is all about your ability to keep the aircraft level with the horizon.

 

Sit with your instructor on the ground and talk through the manuver, don't do it in the air where you have too much going on. Have your instructor talk you through it and take notes. If he won't do this find another instructor. Doesn't matter if he told you this before, if you didn't get it then he needs to repeat it. Remember you are the customer, if he does not give you the service you are looking for then go find someone else.

 

Your spelling could use some help too Some of the old guys here might not that "ur" means the same thing as "your", and would comment that you need to worry about your own flying rather then what your friend "Ur" might be doing.

[michaelking42]

Get the attitude right and everything else will follow. If you look at the AIS in the turn, it can be unreliable (particularly when you turn from downwind to crosswind then to headwind conditions, and it will fluctuate more in higher winds). This will cause you to dive to chase it, so don't use it. Sometimes though, it works. Look outside and feel for an attitude change. You know the nose will drop when you lower the collective, so correct for it with aft cyclic when you lower the collective. As you commence the turn raise the collective just a little to control the rotor RPM. As you roll out of the turn you will need to lower the collective to keep the RPM up. Once you straighten up make sure your aispeed is correct again. Don't know what the appropriate auto airspeed is for the 333; for the 300 it's 50 knots in the POH, 60 knots where I train. Each heli is slightly different, but probably somewhere in the 50-75 knot range.

 

Practice going over the motions before each flight: say to yourself: "collective down, throttle off, right pedal, aft cyclic, turn, control RPM, roll out, lower collective, check airspeed...."

 

Practice, practice, practice is the only way you are going to learn. Simulate it in your mind before the flight, then do it for real. Developing the 'feel' only comes with experience. When you make any turn, try to maintain the same airspeed, or attitude, by feel, and glance at the AIS at the start, midway through, and when you roll out of the turn. When you can 'feel' the attitude, your flying and 180s will improve out of sight.

 

If you get frustrated or pissed, you should terminate the lesson as the only one who benefits is the instructor padding his/her logbook. Fortunately you can always choose another instructor if you don't feel you are getting the tuition you need. After all, it's expensive to fly helicopters!

 

Anyone care to add anything?

[nbit]

I'l second all that michaelking42, plus much of what the others here have stated... If you maintain attitude in the auto it will help to stabilize the airspeed... ...If the airspeed is stabilized, you will also not have to chase the rotor RPM with collective (i.e. - things stay in a steady state, and take much out of the effort involved in doing the maneuver). To point out the importance of maintaining the proper attitude to maintain airspeed, hold your hand at arms length in front of your face - each width of your finger is about 3-5 and even 10 knots of airspeed relative to the horizon. Small changes in attitude can cause large variations in airspeed. As in an instrument scan, you have instruments you use to measure the quality of your performance. Use the airspeed indicator as one of these. Fly the attitude of the helicopter to control the airspeed so you don't chase the airspeed. Make a small attitude change, and wait for the airspeed to stabilize. If it seems to be stabilizing at 5 knots too slow, lower the nose one or two finger widths and see if the airspeed seems to stabilize at your target airspeed, but don't chase the airspeed indicator. I move my eyes between the spot I am going to and my airspeed and RPM indications and always sense the movement of the horizon in my peripheral vision. Some other people have different methods - just outlining what works for me... Some may want to spend more time viewing the horizon, if that seems to work...

 

Your instructor should expend more effort in finding techniques to help you. Sounds like he's giving up too easily in trying other methods or ways of coaching. The FOI plainly states it is an instructor's duty to adjust his/her teaching methods to what works best for each individual student. I agree as suggested - you may want to try another instructor, it could make a big difference, as it sounds like he's fixed in one method of teaching that aspect of flight.

 

Good luck.

Edited April 5, 2008 by nbit

[Witch]

Suggestion: get up to about three thousand AGL and get into an auto. From there, do a few 360's to the left. Get into the feel and look at how everything looks for you. Repeat a couple times and then try it at the place where you do the auto thing.

 

This'll give you a lot of time to get a feel for the manuver and such. Hey, it helped me a little when I first did 180's, which by the way, looked like a porpose in a tailspin. "Sandy! Flipper's gone nuts and's tryin' to mate with a sea turtle!"

 

Anyhow, that's all I have fer ya.

 

Later

[Trol]

Lot of great tips, thanks all. Coming from airplanes, I would use the cowling as a reference on steep turns. I suppose I just need to find a similar type reference out front. Also work on the tip about the scan. I don't know why I got into that habit of looking over my shoulder at the spot the entire time.

As for the poster about my spelling, sorry I mixed in some net speak and spell.

[HelliBoy]

annother little tip for making the spot...get entered in the auto all nice and neat and get your attitude set, from then on dont move the cyclic forward or back until the flare...side to side only. And btw if your instructor isnt teaching you to check the collective (raise it) to control RPM then I'd question his credentials. You mentioned you're having trouble turning left, I always liked going left because I have to move my head/eyes less to check Aiming Point/Attitude/RPM. Those are the three things you're scanning in any autorotaion...UP, OUT, IN..Tip Path Plane, Spot, Tach. Going to the right I have to move my head lots to look from the spot to the tach.

Now heres the trick I teach for making the spot once you're in the turn. As you come through the first 90 degrees of the turn watch the spot and how its moving relative to the door frame. If its moving up then you need to steepen your turn and get around or you'll be short, if its moving down you need to shallow up your rate of turn or you'll overshoot, if its staying relatively still keep your rate of turn the same.

 

Otherwise dont get discourged; you're probably hitting a learning plateau, go do something else and then come back to the 180s.

[Goldy]

You need to get a sight picture for the aircraft level with the horizon and keep it there. I took an erasable marker and drew a line for level flight on the windshield.

 

Just wanted to say that's a great idea that could be very helpful for students learning auto's..

[helonorth]

I'm learning to fly in a Schweizer 333 and having some trouble with 180 left auto's. I set up my airspeed and once abeam my spot, drop collective and start my turn. I keep looking out to my left during my turn and my nose drops. Instuctor has to say "don't drop ur nose, watch ur rpm's" and "don't do that". I won't get into the he won't offer suggestions to help, cuz he says "we already been over that many flights ago."

Anyone offer tips on sight picture or which way to be looking? What is a good airspeed to be making the turn? I've just recently read that after lowering collective, it is best to slowly bring it up a tad to keep the rpm's in the green, don't wait till after the turn to do that.

He kept having me do em over and over and was trying to fix the problem on my own. This just frustrated him each time. Later said he couldn't understand why I kept making the same mistakes after he pointed it out. I'm extremely frustrated myself and this caused all kinds of related issues. I was even starting to miss some radio calls.

I won't even try to give you advice on how to do an auto in a 333, because i've never done one.

I WOULD advise you to find another instructor that would at least answer your questions and

offer you some constructive criticism. " We've already been through that" doesn't cut it.

Edited April 5, 2008 by helonorth

[RotorRunner]

I WOULD advise you to find another instructor that would at least answer your questions and

offer you some constructive criticism. " We've already been through that" doesn't cut it.

 

I second that! I would tell that instructor where to cram it and find an instructor who respects you and has the experience and skills to demonstrate how the maneuver is to be done. If people could be shown one time how to fly a helicopter, and then be able to do it, everybody would be flying them to work. Do not let an instructor be abusive, you are paying his salary. There are good instructors out there who will help and encourage you. An instructor can make or break your entire flying career/hobby. Be sure you have a good one.

[Mikemv]

Trol & all, think about this. When the helo goes from powered flight to autorotative flight, it must go thru 3 aerodynamic transitions. Reversing the airflow, reducing the angle of attack to a tolerable level and 3rd(2 parts)regaining lost rotor RPM and Stabilizing the rotor RPM. In a St In auto, we sit there after entry having lowered the collective(transitions 1 & 2), adjust the attitude and check RPM. Many Instructors will harp on getting the first 90 degrees of turn accomplished as soon as possible after initial entry on a 180 auto. Instead, continue straight ahead for 2 seconds or so and allow the transition to be accomplished, then start your turn and use your ears to "Hear/Fly" the rotor RPM knowing that it will be increasing from a now somewhat stabilized position rather than a transitioning position! Adjust/maintain the attitude as desired and use a "Radius of Action" turn as necessary to make the desired spot. Flying a transitioned rotor system instead of one that is in transition and we change the descent to a somewhat steady state auto similar to a straight in. Someone is going to tell you that waiting a few seconds will cause you to not make the spot but no more so than chasing/changing the rotor RPM by starting the turn immediately and delaying the accomplishment of the aerodynamic transitions. Remember that a steady state auto is really easy to judge/fly. A constantly changing auto is just that, "Constantly Changing" and difficult to judge and adjust. There are many good practice techniques previously mentioned. Your Instructor needs an attitude adjustment, maybe talk to the Chief Instructor if possible. He should be teaching you to fly, doing whatever "He" needs to do to help you learn! Good Luck, Mike

[Trol]

I wasn't wanting to turn this into a "fire the instructor" thread, I made the comments about what the instructor said to keep the "ask your instructor" post from happening. Although I do agree with the comments, firing my instructor is not an option in my case. I won't go into details as to why. He has been instructing for over 15 years and bringing all his students to commercial pilots and not having one fail a checkride.

Anyways, I took the comments that you'll suggested and chair flew the manuever. During my next flight we did the 180's and on the first attempt, I nailed it (nailed from a private pilot standard that is). The instructor kind of looked at me and smiled, and said let's do that again. We did and another great 180. We then moved on to another task.

 

Thanks for the comments, it was all in the scan and not fixating on the landing spot that helped me. That and the raising the collective in anticipation of the rising rpm's.