Rick McWilliams Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 My wife just returned from a dual cross country from Camarillo to Lancaster, Agua Dulce, Van Nuys, to Camarillo. It was a hot day and windless at Lancaster. She was on approach to the helipad and noticed that the little R22 was struggling. She noticed that the manifold pressure was over 24 inches coming out of translational lift. She and here instructor agreed that they may not have sufficient power to hover. They discontinued the approach and accelerated gently to climb airspeed. They may have avoided a hard touchdown. A run on landing would have been difficult on the helipad. I guess that if they really had to land they could have made a run on landing to the runway and then hover taxi with the lighter pilot to parking. I have seen a video of a couple of crazy guys who were having some helicopter performance difficulties. One pilot got out and ran along side the sliding helicopter and jumped in at the last moment. Can you give me a pointer to that video. I would like to send it to her instructor so he knows the drill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrilsekr Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 So, uh... Did they get stuck up there?That would ruin our record of not leaving one up there yet... "I guess that if they really had to land..."Did the fire dept ladder truck come to get them down? Details, details!What was the issue? Heat? Magneto? Tail wind? Heavy on fuel? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick McWilliams Posted June 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 They were heavier than they had planned, more fuel, and the temperature was hotter than expected. It was getting hotter still. There was no wind. It would have been nice for the rotor to be cleaner. The little R22 is getting a bit tired so engine performance might not be up to the book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrilsekr Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Ok, not trying to be a wiener. My first post was a feeble attempt at being funny. However, as a student pilot myself, I am interested on how this lack of power was resolved.Did they do a go around and continue in pattern until they burned off fuel. Maybe head to another airport, or stick their arms out and flap... As for the video I cannot help you. I have for sure heard the story, but I cannot recall seeing a video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Fox field is a great place to do some high DA work. It's often over 5000DA, which is pretty high for us beach goers. (Can't wait for the Denver boys to pitch in and harass me) I have struggled a couple times to get the 44 in the air there, and thats with a significantly lighter load than normal. Even when all the calcs say you can do it, that doesnt make it easy with no wind. It is a rare day that there is no wind in Lancaster!! Anyway, what a great cross country route...some mountain work, plenty of power lines, great views. I think the video you speak of is shown at the Robinson safety school. Not sure if its in the public domain, like U tube yet. Rick, I'm at CMA around 8:30 and in the air Saturday at 9am... if you're near CMA stop by the 44 and say hey! Goldy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyMountainPilot Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 I remember one time at Aspen when the DA was 5,000 feet. It was a grueling -10F day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick1537 Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 They could have surface taxied. Even though I have only done one running takeoff before, I would much prefer it to having my pax jump in at the last moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick McWilliams Posted June 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Of course it is crazy to run along with a runing takeoff and jump in at the last moment. It is great fun to tease your instructor. They did the sensible thing of not landing and proceeded to a lower density altitude airport. I suspect that IGE hover was possible. It might have been a bit tricky for a 30 hour student. All kinds of bad sh*t could happen if she was just a little agressive on the collective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOATFIXERGUY Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 I have seen a video of a couple of crazy guys who were having some helicopter performance difficulties. One pilot got out and ran along side the sliding helicopter and jumped in at the last moment. Can you give me a pointer to that video. I would like to send it to her instructor so he knows the drill. That's just nuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Hunt Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Hey Boatfixer, find some old Vietnam-era pilots and they will tell you about loaded-up Hueys skidding along the PSP runways with the crewmen running alongside, and hopping on the skids when it had just lifted off. Not an ideal situation, but they did what they had to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOATFIXERGUY Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Yes, but that's a military mission in a huey, not an R-22. The military does all kinds of things to get the job done. Civilians are "guided" by the FAA to ensure there are fewer Darwin award winners. I'm sure the FAA would not approve on jumping into a helo on takeoff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clay Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 This one time I tied myself to a long rope, put a brick on the left pedal, stuck a rock under the collective and bungee corded the cyclic. . . as the 300 gained altitude it picked me up at the end of the rope. then i climbed up to the helicopter and we went ahead and flew down from the top of Pike's Peak. Just another day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAWg134 Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Excellent solution Clay, but you're supposed to start out the story, "This one time, in band camp, I..." Actually, running takeoffs aren't all that difficult. I've done them from runways, taxiways, ramps, and even from aircraft tiedown areas. As long as you're able to point the helicopter into the wind and there are no obstructions to snag a skid, any piece of asphalt or concrete will do. Apply sufficient power to get light on the skids and then apply forward cyclic to start sliding along and you'll soon find yourself airborne, typically long before you've reached ETL. The real trick is getting the helicopter to the takeoff point in the first place. If it's equipped with wheels, that's usually the best approach - just push it into position before you start the engine. But if you're planning to use the runway and there's any chance of inbound traffic, then I'd opt to have one pilot taxi out to the end of the runway and set the helicopter onto the ground for the other pilot/passenger to climb aboard and strap in. Never had to do a running landing for real though - just during training. Landing usually wasn't a problem because the fuel tank was generally empty enough at landing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOATFIXERGUY Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 This one time I tied myself to a long rope, put a brick on the left pedal, stuck a rock under the collective and bungee corded the cyclic. . . as the 300 gained altitude it picked me up at the end of the rope. then i climbed up to the helicopter and we went ahead and flew down from the top of Pike's Peak. Just another day Sure...like to see that little 300 take off from the Peak today..or anyday for that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOATFIXERGUY Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Excellent solution Clay, but you're supposed to start out the story, "This one time, in band camp, I..." Actually, running takeoffs aren't all that difficult. I've done them from runways, taxiways, ramps, and even from aircraft tiedown areas. As long as you're able to point the helicopter into the wind and there are no obstructions to snag a skid, any piece of asphalt or concrete will do. Apply sufficient power to get light on the skids and then apply forward cyclic to start sliding along and you'll soon find yourself airborne, typically long before you've reached ETL. The real trick is getting the helicopter to the takeoff point in the first place. If it's equipped with wheels, that's usually the best approach - just push it into position before you start the engine. But if you're planning to use the runway and there's any chance of inbound traffic, then I'd opt to have one pilot taxi out to the end of the runway and set the helicopter onto the ground for the other pilot/passenger to climb aboard and strap in. Never had to do a running landing for real though - just during training. Landing usually wasn't a problem because the fuel tank was generally empty enough at landing. Yes, running takeoffs/landings are a no brainer... It's the "jumping into one" that's nuts... Plus, how many humans, besides CLAY, can run over 17 knots when the bird gets into translation? Can't imagine how that would affect the CG of a tiny R-22. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clay Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Sure...like to see that little 300 take off from the Peak today..or anyday for that matter. I bet if we could get it UP there, we could do a running takeoff, drop off a sheer cliff and fall down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
500E Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Were not low power take off lesson 4\5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelFire_91 Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 I bet if we could get it UP there, we could do a running takeoff, drop off a sheer cliff and fall down. I've seen "Lifeguard 3," which is an AS350, do exactly that when I used to work up there. We loaded up a 'pretty big' patient once and the pilot left his nurse with us, did a running takeoff off the summit. He went through ETL before the edge so it wasn't exactly like he dropped off the edge but it was close. He then swung around to a lower elevation where we met back up with him and loaded the nurse up. I think it would have been more fun to watch the nurse run along side and jump in at the last moment though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerhardt Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 This one time I tied myself to a long rope, put a brick on the left pedal, stuck a rock under the collective and bungee corded the cyclic. . . as the 300 gained altitude it picked me up at the end of the rope. then i climbed up to the helicopter and we went ahead and flew down from the top of Pike's Peak. Just another day clay = chuck norris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhotoFlyer Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 (edited) clay = chuck norris Negative... Chuck doesn't need a helicopter. He threatens to round house kick the ground and it repels him. Or one of my favorites: "The helicopter was invented after Chuck Norris was observed doing 8 roundhouse kicks a second." Edited June 29, 2009 by PhotoFlyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 Running takeoff and/or landings are just another trick in the bag. Nothing to the maneuver itself. The decision to do either should be very carefully considered, however- whatever argues against normal hovering can make an abort an unattractive option:Running takeoff, as the bird hits ETL in ground effect, the performance seems much stronger than it does as you try to nurse it up to max climb speed/angle. You can get to one of those magic numbers with insufficient power to usefully climb...Same for a run-on, only worse- you're getting rid of both your reserve energy sources- altitude and speed as you commit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 It hasnt been brought up in this thread, but if you are so heavy you cant take off, what makes you think you can safely operate the ship within its load limits? I would bet if you are in an R22 or R44 and cant hover IGE, you are most likely way over the limits. Goldy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin DBC Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 It hasnt been brought up in this thread, but if you are so heavy you cant take off, what makes you think you can safely operate the ship within its load limits? I would bet if you are in an R22 or R44 and cant hover IGE, you are most likely way over the limits. Goldy Is anyone doing anything so important in an R-22 that they NEED to fly when they can't hover IGE? As I told the examiner when he asked if I could land at Big Bear during a hot summer day (I cant remember the temp and weight he gave... he put it right at the limit...), "You can go ahead and do it if you want... just don't ask me to go with you". J- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clay Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 If the skids can lift off the ground, the helicopter can get off the ground. you just gotta figure out how to get it there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 If the skids can lift off the ground, the helicopter can get off the ground. you just gotta figure out how to get it there. Yeah, but the last place you want to be is out of power and obstruction clearance on the slow side of Vx, where it takes more power to go slower. If you needed to abort that takeoff and you're unhappily using all the power you legally have, your next few seconds are going to result in a logbook entry regarding inadvertent exceedance of a limitation, if you're lucky.What you're not seeing in the images of the military crew jumping aboard a translating helo, or somebody diving the helo off a pinnacle is the accident that eventually comes when you work that close to the edge of the envelope often enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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