Turbine time during training - good or bad?

[Parafiddle]

Is training in a turbine helicopter a good or bad thing when you are working through your ratings (Private thru CFI/CFII) in terms of both preparing you for/helping land an instructor job as well as the follow-on job after instructing? I'm talking about doing some/all of your ratings in a turbine vs. a piston, not just getting a few hours in a turbine or doing a turbine check-out.

 

Case in point - a company that posts (and I think advertises) on this forum is advertising flight training in a turbine Alouette 3130 for the price of a piston R22 or 300CB. As a future RW student, will doing my training in a turbine help me or hurt me both when I'm looking for an instructor job as well as when I move on from instructing? In my case, all of the RW ratings would be add-on ratings. Does it make a difference if they weren't add-on? Is it better to get some ratings in a piston and some in a turbine? Thoughts?

[Goldy]

Is it better to get some ratings in a piston and some in a turbine? Thoughts?

 

If you want to teach, I think your odds are best if you have the required hours in both the R22 and R44 (which is 75 if I remember SFAR from memory, 50 in the 22, half of which meet the 50 hour req for the 44)....anyway, if you want to be most valuable to a school, being able to teach in a 22, 44 and 300 would open the most doors.

 

As far as turbine time, hell yes! I think it would be more valuable when looking at employment in a commercial operation, not many schools teach in turbines.

 

Bottom line, all time is good time, but get checked out in the 3 most popular ships first.

 

Fly safe,

 

Goldy

 

(always try to fly OVER the wires, flying under them can interfere with tv reception)

[slick1537]

I would have to agree, you will need at least 50 hours in the r22 model to instruct in it, or 50 in the r44 (but you may credit 25 hours of r22 time to the r44 requirement), and at least 200 hours total in helicopters. The only thing you need to instruct in the 300 is 5 hours PIC so that is good. If money isnt a problem wouldn't hurt to do private in the r22, instrument in a r44, and the rest in a 300. Personally I don't have any 44 time but I have a feeling it may hurt me when I go looking for work.

Edited July 23, 2009 by slick1537

[Parafiddle]

What is the best way to divide my hours (Private thru CFII) between piston and turbine? I had thought about doing my Private, Instrument and Commercial in a turbine and then doing CFI and CFII in a piston. Is this a good idea? Also, all of my ratings will be add-on helicopter, so I'm guessing that I'd end up with around 100 hrs. or so of turbine time. Does this sound accurate? Does this make a difference in whether I do them in a turbine or a piston? I've read a lot of posts stating you shouldn't waste your money on a turbine transition because the approx. 10 hrs. you'll get in a turbine won't mean that much to an employer (post-instructing job). How many hours turbine time do you need to start being attractive to an employer when you are looking for that first job after instructing?

 

On a seperate note, how critical is it to train at a school that allows full-down auto's? If I can't do that during Private thru Commercial, can I still pick up that skill during my CFI training with out being too far behind the power curve? Do most schools allow students to perform full-down auto's or is it more than the exception than the rule do to insurance rules?

[rick1128]

What is the best way to divide my hours (Private thru CFII) between piston and turbine? I had thought about doing my Private, Instrument and Commercial in a turbine and then doing CFI and CFII in a piston. Is this a good idea? Also, all of my ratings will be add-on helicopter, so I'm guessing that I'd end up with around 100 hrs. or so of turbine time. Does this sound accurate? Does this make a difference in whether I do them in a turbine or a piston? I've read a lot of posts stating you shouldn't waste your money on a turbine transition because the approx. 10 hrs. you'll get in a turbine won't mean that much to an employer (post-instructing job). How many hours turbine time do you need to start being attractive to an employer when you are looking for that first job after instructing?

 

On a seperate note, how critical is it to train at a school that allows full-down auto's? If I can't do that during Private thru Commercial, can I still pick up that skill during my CFI training with out being too far behind the power curve? Do most schools allow students to perform full-down auto's or is it more than the exception than the rule do to insurance rules?

 

I did the add-on route also. It depends on how often you train and how much total time you have. Be aware that negative transfer will effect your training. The more FW time you have, the more it will effect your training. I would suggest that you do your Instrument training after your CFI and do your CFII in conjunction with your instrument training. And make sure you do your CFI training RIGHT after your commercial. You'll be much sharper on the maneuvers. Most of the schools I have talked with will only do full down auto during CFI training. Another thing to keep in mind is that unless you can instruct with the school you train at, you will be doubly hampered with the lack of helicopter time. As an outside trained instructor, many schools want to see 500TT.

 

Also plan on more time than 100 hours.

[Parafiddle]

How many hours should I plan for each rating? At that point, I'll be retired from the military, so I should be able to fly every day (pending weather and maintenance and an occasional day to rest the brain). Am I better off doing all of my training at a school that I hope to get a job at (near my home) or is it O.K. to just do the CFI training there? What about doing my Private in a turbine in WV and then doing my Commercial and CFI in a 300 in Colorado? Assuming the cost per hour is close to the same, will the turbine hours be useful to me in getting a job after working as a CFI or will it not be enough to matter? Forgot to add that I currently have about 300 hrs. FW time (Private and Instrument) and should be doing my Commercial (single engine) checkride in a month or so. Will then do a multi-engine commercial add-on right after. I'll probably have about 500 hrs. FW time by the time I start my RW training. Want to be able to focus on my RW training and not drag it out over multiple years.

[choppedair]

If you plan on getting a CFI job, turbine time is less important than the 3 main trainers.

 

Your best bet is to be qualified to instruct in the R22 and R44, with plenty of 300 time as well.

If you start helicopter training in a turbine or a 300, stepping back to the R22 will be difficult at best.

 

My opinion, start out in the R22. Start flying the 300 a bit during your commercial training, as well as the R44. Use the 15 hours of IFR rotorcraft in the R44, and the rest of the 25 r44 hours (to instruct) doing maneuvers.

 

I would set my goals like this;

 

200 helicopter (to instruct in a robinson) consisting of;

50 R22 minimum (to instruct in an R22)

25 R44 minimum (to instruct in an R44)

25 300 minimum (not required but a good idea)

The rest of the flight time can be any combination of those helicopters or any other. Turbine time is good, but I'm not sure if it is worth the additional cost during training. If you can find a (relatively) cheap way to get some turbine time, absolutely do it. Depending on where you train, some companies will offer up dual in a turbine ship during a ferry flight for a couple hundred per hour.

 

I would aim to train at a school where I felt I had the best odds of getting hired afterward. As Rick mentioned, many schools want 300-500 hours from a CFI hired outside of the school.

[Oil Pilot]

Don't waste your money on turbine time, you won't get enough to really have it be valuable when it comes time anyway.

 

Like someone said before, your main goal is to get to the point where you are employable as a commercial pilot and 99 times out of 100, that involves instruction. Planning your flight time so you can instruct in multiple aircraft makes you more valuable and more attractive to a potential employer as a CFI. After you've spent a year or more likely two getting to the hour requirement needed to get a true commercial job, having some turbine time two years ago really isn't going to be that beneficial. You're better off learning power management in something like an R-22 than flying around in any turbine with just you and an instructor.

[helonorth]

Don't waste your money on turbine time, you won't get enough to really have it be valuable when it comes time anyway.

 

Like someone said before, your main goal is to get to the point where you are employable as a commercial pilot and 99 times out of 100, that involves instruction. Planning your flight time so you can instruct in multiple aircraft makes you more valuable and more attractive to a potential employer as a CFI. After you've spent a year or more likely two getting to the hour requirement needed to get a true commercial job, having some turbine time two years ago really isn't going to be that beneficial. You're better off learning power management in something like an R-22 than flying around in any turbine with just you and an instructor.

Good advice.

[bossman]

I think Oil pilot and helonorth are totally wrong, but that's just me.

[clay]

is it wrong because you try to market turbine training?

 

if not, what is your input as to why turbine training is beneficial for a student?

Edited August 6, 2009 by clay

[bossman]

is it wrong because you try to market turbine training?

 

if not, what is your input as to why turbine training is beneficial for a student?

clay,

I do not try to market turbine training, I do market turbine training.

All training is beneficial.

Everyone knows how I feel about having a wide variety of machines on your resume', turbine and piston. It shows versitility and a willingness to learn and do different things.

If I had two guys (or gals) standing there and they both had 500 hours, I would take the one with several machines verses the one with only Robinson time.

If you have the chance to strap on a turbine by all means go for it. The only difference is the power management. Your torque gauge is like manifold pressure. Putting a student in a turbine for a few hours gives them the perspective of what they will someday be doing. Yes, in todays world the newbie must first teach other newbies how to fly a R22. A process that I think is upside down.

Having said all this, get all the TIME that you can and try to make it a learning experience, whether it be in a turbine or piston, and remember to have fun. When it is no longer fun, it becomes a job.

[West Coaster]

Any training that broadens for knowledge and experience is good. The idea of flying a turbine can be very taboo and scary to new pilots. Nothing wrong with getting it out of the way and seeing it's just another helicopter.

 

Heck, I'd love to take it in the other direction and get checked out on a Bell 47.

[apiaguy]

oh this is entertaining. Why does it matter what you get your rating in when you pretty much aren't going to be able to get a job anyway?

 

How about just pick a school and hope and pray you can get a cfi job there. If you can't you'll be like most others here... if you can you will have made the jump to professional helicopter pilot...what a deal.

[turbotay]

even if you don't get a cfi job at your school there are places you can go to be hire but you'll have to become flexible with the requirements ie moving States to wherever the school is.

[Oil Pilot]

Bossman, I mentioned in my post that having the experience required to instruct in multiple aircraft is important. To call me totally wrong is a bit of an overstatement in my opinion.

 

Most schools do not have an Alouette at their disposal that they can rent to the students at a similiar price to an R-22, 44, or CB300. Given that, having 5 hours in a turbine most times doesn't demonstrate flexibility and willingness to learn, it demonstrates willingness to spend a large sum of money just so you can state that you have some turbine time.

 

I'm not saying that a student at a school such as Marpat which has an Alouette should not take advantage of that fact, but most schools simply can not provide a turbine at a price reasonable enough to justify paying for the transition yourself when any employer hiring guys with 1000 or 1500 hours is going to provide it anyway.

 

For you new guys, a piece of advice. A helicopter is a helicopter is a helicopter. Whether it's a turbine, piston, semi-rigid, fully articulated, etc. Once you know how to properly start the helicopter, which gauges to monitor for power, and get an initial feel for the handling of that particular bird, they're all relatively the same.

[clay]

Bossman, I mentioned in my post that having the experience required to instruct in multiple aircraft is important. To call me totally wrong is a bit of an overstatement in my opinion.

 

Most schools do not have an Alouette at their disposal that they can rent to the students at a similiar price to an R-22, 44, or CB300. Given that, having 5 hours in a turbine most times doesn't demonstrate flexibility and willingness to learn, it demonstrates willingness to spend a large sum of money just so you can state that you have some turbine time.

 

I'm not saying that a student at a school such as Marpat which has an Alouette should not take advantage of that fact, but most schools simply can not provide a turbine at a price reasonable enough to justify paying for the transition yourself when any employer hiring guys with 1000 or 1500 hours is going to provide it anyway.

 

For you new guys, a piece of advice. A helicopter is a helicopter is a helicopter. Whether it's a turbine, piston, semi-rigid, fully articulated, etc. Once you know how to properly start the helicopter, which gauges to monitor for power, and get an initial feel for the handling of that particular bird, they're all relatively the same.

 

I like. . .. . . .

Edited August 6, 2009 by clay

[BOATFIXERGUY]

Hey Clay! You didn't tell us you were in Cancun!!!

 

p.s. Please don't turn around.

[67november]

Hey Clay! You didn't tell us you were in Cancun!!!

 

p.s. Please don't turn around.

 

AMEN brother, the front view is bad enuf

[crashed_05]

[bossman]

Bossman, I mentioned in my post that having the experience required to instruct in multiple aircraft is important. To call me totally wrong is a bit of an overstatement in my opinion.

 

Most schools do not have an Alouette at their disposal that they can rent to the students at a similiar price to an R-22, 44, or CB300. Given that, having 5 hours in a turbine most times doesn't demonstrate flexibility and willingness to learn, it demonstrates willingness to spend a large sum of money just so you can state that you have some turbine time.

 

I'm not saying that a student at a school such as Marpat which has an Alouette should not take advantage of that fact, but most schools simply can not provide a turbine at a price reasonable enough to justify paying for the transition yourself when any employer hiring guys with 1000 or 1500 hours is going to provide it anyway.

 

For you new guys, a piece of advice. A helicopter is a helicopter is a helicopter. Whether it's a turbine, piston, semi-rigid, fully articulated, etc. Once you know how to properly start the helicopter, which gauges to monitor for power, and get an initial feel for the handling of that particular bird, they're all relatively the same.

Oil Pilot,

The thing is, if you already have the turbine time, you will have a leg up. You may get hired with 600 or 700 hours verses 1000 hours. I've seen it happen. If an employer has a good rapor with their insurance company they can have pilots added with as little as 500 hours. If the company sees that the pilot knows what they are doing on the start and checkout it's a plus to not have to transition them.

[Oil Pilot]

Oil Pilot,

The thing is, if you already have the turbine time, you will have a leg up. You may get hired with 600 or 700 hours verses 1000 hours. I've seen it happen. If an employer has a good rapor with their insurance company they can have pilots added with as little as 500 hours. If the company sees that the pilot knows what they are doing on the start and checkout it's a plus to not have to transition them.

 

IF you already have experience in the particular make and model they are flying, sure, but we both know starting a Jet Ranger is different than a Long Ranger, which is different than an A-Star, which is different from a FADEC system start. Besides the start, companies are also going to have to spend the training time on EPs and general flight of the aircraft for their operation so it's not like they're going to save that much money because you payed for five or ten hours of turbine time when you were doing your initial training, especially if for example you'll be flying an A-Star on the job and your initial turbine training was in a Jet Ranger.

 

I've seen people get hired with less than 1000 hours who had zero turbine experience, they just had the right attitude and had done all of the right things so that certainly isn't the only thing that comes into play.

[lvchopperpilot]

I got hired on with a great company with barely any turbine time and over 1000 hours. Having multiple aircraft on your resume will help you without a doubt. You have to look at what your next step in your career is. There are not many flight schools that train in turbine helicotpers. Understanding of the turbine engine is helpful knowledge, but I think the first "stepping stones" of your career is to get all the required time in what you will be flying next, the R22, R44, and the Schweizer. After getting all your required time (50 R22, 25 R44, and I'm pretty sure you will have to have 25 in the Schweizer to be covered under most insurance policies) in those 3, then talk with your instructor to begin transitioning. If you can afford it, get as much turbine experience in as many helicopters as possible.

 

I help operate a flight school. It is very important to understand the performance of an R22 in high density altitude. Having only 50 hours in an R22 instead of 150 hours in an R22 would raise a concern in my eyes, but all flight schools and operators are looking for something different.

 

If a company is operating an Astar 350BA, they want you to have Astar 350BA time. If a company is operating a Bell 206, they want you to have Bell 206 time...and so on...and so do their insurance companies.

[BOATFIXERGUY]

Well the State of Montana is looking for a new entry level pilot. They seem to think everyone has a ton of turbine flight time by 1500 hours. Check out the requirements:

 

Education/Experience:

These knowledges, skills, and abilities are typically acquired through graduation from FAA flight training or military flight training; Commercial rating with instrument rating. Qualified for issuance of USFS/OAS Helicopter Pilot qualification card. Must have a minimum of 1500 PIC rotary wing hours including 100 hours night, 500 hours typical terrain, 500 hours in weight class to be flown and 1200 hours turbine.

 

Oh, and it pays $14.453 to $26.85 an hour.

 

And it gets better:

 

3.Describe any educational and/or work experience as it relates to piloting of a Bell UH-1 Series Helicopter.

 

Now, how many new pilots besides the Army back in the day would meet these requirements? Is the weight class they talk about a UH-1? Probably.

 

So looks like we should all be training in UH-1. I would love to myself. Now this pay level doesn't match the pilot they are looking for. I don't know any firefighting pilots who would work for $14 - $26 an hour.

 

This is a real ad. Here's the link if you want to apply:

 

https://svc.mt.gov/statejobsearch/listingde...ls.aspx?id=1558

[mechanic]

Looks like they are wanting a "Just Separating Army" pilot..