Part 141 vs. Part 61

[Parafiddle]

Do employers (both flight schools and post-instructing jobs) care whether you trained at a Part 141 school vs. a Part 61 school? I know what the differences are in training requirements between Part 141 vs. Part 61. I'm interested in knowing if there is a job hunting advantage in being trained at a Part 141 school. Thoughts/experiences?

[BOATFIXERGUY]

Nope...unless its the same school you're getting your ratings through.

 

141 - More structured, but theoretically you can get a rating in less flight hours. Veteran benefits approved. VISA's approved.

 

61 - More flexible. No veteran benefits or foreigner visa's available.

[Galadrium]

No. How someone gets the license is irrelevant. The most important thing is the number of hours you have in your logbook.

 

If I were picking between a 141 or a 61 flight school I was probably go for the part 61 school. Part 61 schools have more flexibility in the training curriculum, and generally have a more casual learning environment.

[choppedair]

No. How someone gets the license is irrelevant. The most important thing is the number of hours you have in your logbook.

 

If I were picking between a 141 or a 61 flight school I was probably go for the part 61 school. Part 61 schools have more flexibility in the training curriculum, and generally have a more casual learning environment.

 

I agree that a 61 school generally is more casual. Sometimes that is not a good thing though.

I have talked to several students and CFI's at 61 schools where an instructor has been out with a student for several training hours just flying around with no real goals. When it is time for them to fly with another CFI before solo, the student had almost no ground instruction, wasn't taught proper pre-flight, and generally had no idea of what they were supposed to know at that stage. The CFI just wanted to build flight time.

While that is really just a CFI problem individually, a 141 program is more structured and the student has a syllabus, and there are checks in place to ensure that you are progressing as you should be. The student can see what they should be learning and know whether or not their CFI is doing their job.

 

If I were a new student again, I would probably want to train at a 141 school and try to follow the general syllabus, but conduct training under part 61 (because it is more flexible). The instructors at that school should all have lesson plans made up that follow the syllabus, and should be better equipped to follow a plan.

 

When it comes time to look for a job though, it won't make much of a difference if any. As long as the logbook has what it needs, your flying/instructing skills are what they should be and they like you.

[adam32]

We follow a syllabus at my 61 school...everyone knows what the next flight will entail and the goals for that flight...

 

The only advantage to a 141 school is the ability to use GI bills, in my opinion.

[slick1537]

Also if you are planning to get a loan through Sallie Mae I think they only have part 141 schools on their list, I could be wrong though.

[adam32]

Also if you are planning to get a loan through Sallie Mae I think they only have part 141 schools on their list, I could be wrong though.

 

I think they only have 3 schools total on their list nowadays...

[Goldy]

We follow a syllabus at my 61 school...everyone knows what the next flight will entail and the goals for that flight...

 

Adam- that is the best of both schools...probably results in less anxiety by the students as well. They have something to measure their skills against where they should be, and they know what to study for before the next flight.

 

Goldy

[Tom22]

Most schools like the one I have give our students the option of training under 61 or 141. Just because you go t a 141 school does not mean that you can not be trained under 61.

 

To the gentleman that posted the comment above. If you have a job as a helicopter pilot then congratulations...but if you don't, please use your words wisely. I would think long and hard at what you just said if you are looking for a career in Aviation. The most important thing to you right now is the number of hours in your logbook but as an employer...those hours don’t mean anything to me unless I knew where you got them from. If I did not know someone personally or they didn't go through my 141 program I would not hire them unless they were trained to 141 standards. The FAA designed the 141 program so that schools would train very safe and upstanding pilots. They have to be or they wouldn't graduate, I can promise you that.

 

Whether conducted through part 61 or 141 the goal of the training is to pass the very same practical test. Therefore, how could you differentiate two newly certified pilots from different schools (61 or 141) if you did not know how they received their training? Assume one school is part 61, the other is 141, and the safety culture is the same at both schools.

[rick1128]

I have trained and have conducted training under both 61 and 141. Unless the school has testing authority, the students take the same test and are tested to the same standards. Although 141 has lower hour requirements, generally that doesn't make too much of a difference in the total time of students when they do get their certificates. One of the biggest issues I have with 141 is the lack of real flexibility. This can be especially important in areas that can have weather extremes. I know frustrating it can be for a student who is in a phase that the weather doesn't permit.

[Tom22]

Eight out of ten times, where did you get this statistic?

 

Practicing for a practical test is not like rehearsing for a play, so verbatim memorization is not going to get you very far. Part 61 is Federal Aviation Regulation which is a training standard mandated by the FAA.

 

The question is how could you differentiate the skills of a newly certified pilot in which one graduated from a 61 school and the other a 141 school? I think passing the practical test means that you meet by the standards mandated by the FAA.

 

You do have good points about being nickel and dimed, but I have seen this at a 141 schools as well. I have come across a few money hungry microcephalics that run 141 schools.

[C of G]

So what does a PTS for a 141 checkride look like?

[PhotoFlyer]

So what does a PTS for a 141 checkride look like?

 

Kinda like the PTS for a 61 checkride.

[BOATFIXERGUY]

I feel like such a loser right now. I went to one of those crappy part 61 schools and got my ratings. Their 11,000 to 15,000 hour instructors must have really sucked compared to the higher quality 141 schools.

[RkyMtnHI]

QUOTE (adam32 @ Aug 4 2009, 18:38 )

We follow a syllabus at my 61 school...everyone knows what the next flight will entail and the goals for that flight...

 

Adam- that is the best of both schools...probably results in less anxiety by the students as well. They have something to measure their skills against where they should be, and they know what to study for before the next flight.

 

Goldy

 

 

Agreed! Just because the school is 141 does not mean they follow the 141 syllabus, it's up to the management to make sure that the instructors are doing their job.. and some schools have little or no organized upper management. We have a student now that came from a 141 school that had 35 hours and had NEVER been out of the pattern... NEVER BEEN OUT OF THE PATTERN!! But he sure can hover well! :-) (he's actually an exceptional student/pilot, which frustrates me even more that he wasn't allowed to move forward).

 

I have also seen that some schools that get their 141 only use it to secure VA money, then mostly train 61, and end up giving up their 141 due to the added expense and frustration of keeping it all organized. (i expect some of this to change now since financing is so hard to secure).

 

The comment about sallie mae not insisting that the schools be 141; i'd say that was an effect.. the cause was poor management, greed and lack of integrity of the flight schools and unfortunately some of the schools didn't get it. I wonder how many mini silver state's we have in business right now?!

 

jmho

 

aloha,

 

dp

[Tom22]

That statistic came from being in this business for 30 years Tom. Verbatim meorization has got a lot of people very far when it comes to the Practical and if you dont think so your fooling yourself. Your very right about 61 being a training standard madated by the FAA, but you tell me why did the FAA implement Part 141? I want to know why you think they did. I told you in my last post how I can differentiate the skills of a newly certified pilot in which one graduated from a 61 school and the other a 141 school. Yes passing the practical test does mean that you meet the standards mandated by the FAA but that is just one of many standards....and that standard is microscopic when looking at the broad scope of proper pilot training! Being money hungry is no doubt bad business practice, but what does that have to do with the standard that 141 school trains their students?

 

I think 141 regulations came into existence because there was a need for a structured program so people could use their VA benefits. I am going off what I was told in a conversation; therefore, enlighten me on the history of 141 regulation from notice of proposed rulemaking to its implications in the current environment.

 

Schools can use a 141 curriculum to take advantage of people just like the CFI working out of the trunk of his car. Part 141 regulations are just that, the quality of instruction given is ultimately contingent on the character and experience of the flight instructor.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Tom22

[glennahall]

I feel like such a loser right now. I went to one of those crappy part 61 schools and got my ratings. Their 11,000 to 15,000 hour instructors must have really sucked compared to the higher quality 141 schools.

 

Me too! Crap! I did all my stuff up till now only in the ARMY. All I got was Comercial R/W-H and R/W-I (Coulda got ground school inst. but I are dumb) and about 350 hrs in 3 different helicopters. If only I had know to be a stick hog and get that other 650 needed to break into the industry.

 

Well, maybe I can make up for all my past trangressions by going and getting a stuck-wing PPL/Comm./Inst. and start chasin' CFI/II soon with one of better training facilities... as soon as I can find one I can afford that speaks english and won't milk me for every dime my family needs.

 

[Hovergirl]

I feel like such a loser right now. I went to one of those crappy part 61 schools and got my ratings. Their 11,000 to 15,000 hour instructors must have really sucked compared to the higher quality 141 schools.

 

Aw man, too bad for you. How many hours of paperwork time do you have? I have lots of pen time, and even a fair amount of wite-out experience.

[C of G]

ha ha, funny guy! You dont get it either!

 

Well, if you're the only one arguing your side, who do you think doesn't get it?

[BOATFIXERGUY]

I have seen you on here alot and I have always thought you have had great advise for up and coming pilots and I respect you for that.

 

Thank you for that. I appreciate it.

 

I'm not jumping on the bandwagon, I'm making my point. The great thing about this forum is that we can all debate without any hard feelings. There is another forum out there for those that like nothing but spreading rumors and discontent.

 

What I'm saying is that I've been around awhile too. I don't know everything and never will. I'm not Stringfellow Hawk (that's the Airwolf pilot for you youngsters). What I do know is that I don't care where you were trained. I know army guys that suck. I know 141 guys that suck. I know 61 guys that suck...notice I didn't say girls here, they are always awesome pilots! I know 10,000 hour + pilots that suck, etc. A good pilot is a good pilot.

 

Saying you would rather hire a 141 graduate instead of a 61 is a little off in my book. Are you talking about an entry level CFI position? I rate each individual seperately. Every pilot brings something different to the group with their own strengths and weaknesses. None of us are without some sort of weakness. We just learn from others to minimize mistakes.

 

Good flying,

john

[C of G]

Thats the problem! I am the only one here arguing my side. Some of you guys on here just make me so angry on some matters especially when it comes to student pilot training (must be the new school of thinking). Some of you think that 141 schools are some kind of joke and they take advantage of people. I am not saying all 141 schools are perfect but if they arent then they need to be reported to the FSDO. Also I am not saying that all 61 schools are bad but if they have high time instructors and follow the letter of the law then why would they not want to certifiy themselves and become the best that they could be!

 

I've done my share of instruction from pt 61, 141, 142 , 135 and JAA. I have yet to find (JAA excluded) one that does not ultimately train to one FAA PTS or another.

 

Reading your posts:

 

Your grammar and spelling are atrocious and you make up statistics. I am beginning to believe English is not your first language, and perhaps that is why you are not getting your point across. However, that does not make me want to agree with your isolated opinion. Please show me where a 141 applicant trains to a different standard. At the end of the day, it is up to the examiner to decide whether the pilot meets that standard and there is no difference between a pt 61 or 141 checkride. You can try and persuade us to believe that you can tell the difference between applicants, and if you somehow have that sense, more power to you, but to answer the original poster's question of whether it makes a difference for future employment, it most certainly does not, in my opinion. The occasional exception of that is initial CFI work, but again, that is more often not the case. When you are the only person to say that it does, that is evidence enough that you are the exception, not the rule. How many pilots do you employ, and how many are from a school other than your own? What is the ratio of 61 to 141 trained pilots at your shop?

Edited August 26, 2009 by C of G

[Mikemv]

Having interviewed and rejected or hired many pilots for Part 61/141 flight training or 91 & 135 helicopter pilot positions, I always liked to know where they trained and how but it was their responses to my questions in an oral evaluation and how they flew on a pre-hire check ride that determined if they got the job or not. C of G is correct in his point that everyone meets the same PTS. Best to All, MikeMV

[RkyMtnHI]

notice I didn't say girls here, they are always awesome pilots!

Good flying,

john

 

 

You know, I've been thinking that you were a really smart guy... now I'm sure of it!!

 

dp

[apiaguy]

hmmm....

if you run a 141 school I can see why you would prefer the 141 student/cfi... they know the system.

 

I personally prefer as little government oversight as possible and enjoy the free environment of the 61 school. To say that because a school follows a government formula with oversight that makes it more "quality" is like saying public schools provide the most quality.

 

jeez... we're learning to fly helicopters... 30 minutes with most pilots will let you know what kind of qualities they posess.

[BOATFIXERGUY]

I am the only one arguing the 141 side because maybe I am the only one on here that is an owner of a 141 school. I am very passionate about working along side the FAA and putting the safest most well trained pilots we can into the industry.

 

I have 4 instructors that were all 141 trained. 2 are graduates from our school and the other two graduated from other well known 141 schools.

 

This is all I have left to say. Thank you very much for your time!

 

What school do you own and where is it located?