Check Collective??

[nikon858]

Primacy is king in this game.....but a discouraged student is the worst thing you can do....and trying to complicate an already complex maneuver WILL discourage a student.....did you learn all the tricks you know now in the first 40 hours of your training??? I think not, and thats what I'm getting at....you didn't learn algebra first in school, you learned basic addition, THEN multiplication....what I'm getting at is a progression in learning, remember a private pilots license is just a license to learn.......and to be honest, it's a miracle is a solo student survives an engine failure, even if in a controlled environment they do great.

Edited September 6, 2009 by nikon858

[NeverQuestionMe]

Dear sir...

 

from the infamous aviation instructors handbook, which is what I use, a little quote about teaching students maneuvers that may be stressful or make them anxious.....

 

Defense mechanisms can be biological or psychological. The biological defense mechanism is a physiological response that protects or preserves organisms. For example, when humans experience a danger or a threat, the “fight or flight” response kicks in. Adrenaline and other chemicals are activated and physical symptoms such as rapid heart rate and increased blood pressure occur.

An example of this might occur when an anxious student pilot is learning to place the aircraft (helicopter) in an autorotative descent, which is used in the event of engine failure or tail rotor failure. Emergency procedure training is necessary to practice as the outcome of a true emergency is directly related to the pilot’s ability to react instantly and correctly, and in taking the proper corrective action since there may be limited time to analyze the problem. The anxiety that the student pilot may feel while practicing such maneuvers may resolve itself into a “fight or flight” response.

The instructor needs to recognize the student’s apprehension about performing the autorotation and help the student gain the necessary skill level to feel comfortable with the maneuver. In this case, the instructor could take the procedure apart and demonstrate each stage of an autorotation. Allowing the student to then practice the stages at various heights should instill the confidence needed to perform the autorotation.

 

I cannot seem to find the part where it says to not teach a student how to do a maneuver because I may be concerned about scaring the crap out of the STUDENT pilot.

 

I do not discourage STUDENT pilots by teaching them to perform maneuvers correctly. Not teaching them how to do a maneuver because it may make them tinkle in their pants does the STUDENT pilot a disservice.

 

And no, a private pilot license is not a license, it is a certificate. Besides that, it is not a certificate to learn, it is a certificate to perform all of the duties and responsibilities of a private pilot. For example, to take their dog, cat, and the local redbook girl up for a ride. A STUDENT pilot certificate is a certificate to learn the basics. I think the big hint is in the name. Any pilot should never stop learning, but that is not an excuse to not teach a pilot correctly.

[RockyMountainPilot]

RMPilot, I never stated that a pilot should not know how to use the flight controls, that is primary. I did mean that from entry to flare, the collective is used to control rotor RPM. Cyclic changes and disc tilting in a flare will change rotor RPM but RPM is still Controlled by the collective, NOT the cyclic.

 

If the rotor RPM is at 90% and you begin a flare, this is a normal and expected building of rotor RPM at the bottom of an auto and one of the three things that happen in a flare. Pilots should understand the change in angle of attack and driving the rotor higher here but in the reverse situation, a pilot would never remove the flare and NOT use collective to decrease RPM thus NOT reducing ground speed and rate of descent, the other two things that we accomplish in a flare!

 

Now you are backtracking. If you can change rotor rpm with cyclic or collective, then both will "control" the rpm. Both have to be used in unison and there are many different techniques that can be apply to control RPM.

 

Your second example is unbelievable! To state that you would not control the rotor RPM with collective throughout the auto then flare to increase it beyond a limit and state that you do not care is life threathening. If prior to the flare it was at 110%, an increase in collective would reduce ground speed and rate of descent. Then as you flare using collective to keep RPM within limits and having all of the RPM to cushion the landing.

 

Please explain how this is life threatening? Is it more of life threatening then balling up a helicopter? Is it more or less life threatening then a hard landing on uneven terrain?

[Mikemv]

First time poster, long time reader. I have tried to stay out of the forum debates until now, but this one puts the panties in a bunch.

 

Lets try this situation on for size...

 

1. Grab an armpit full of collective before the flare.

>Distance to crash site increased

>Safe landing zone now at the six o'clock position

>RPM managable, AKA non issue, AKA rotor RPM at 80% (thank the gods there is a fudge zone... they won't stall. swear to those forementioned gods)

>Altitude increased. Afterall altitude is your friend. The more the better, especially during a hover auto

2. With the increased lift and altitude due to raising collective, additional time is now afforded to key the mike and scream "PAN PAN, OMG I'M GOING DOWN" and then, depending on the inertia of the rotor system, a quick prayer might be possible.

*Note* Since the rotors are now stalled, the passengers and pilot are now in a safe condition due to the lack of worry about the rotors coming through the cockpit

 

Is this the way you would fly?

Edited September 6, 2009 by Mikemv

[Mikemv]

RMPilot, it is your stated attitude about exceeding limtiations that is life threatening.

Edited September 6, 2009 by Mikemv

[Mikemv]

To All, this post seemed to become somewhat heated and taken personally by some. This was never my intention. I post here when I see definite misconceptions and offer info and experience from a long helo career. I wish the best to all of you, students, certificated airman and CFI's.

 

Those of you that have flown or trained with me know of my sincerity. I must chime in when I see information posted that is incorrect, especially for the up and coming pilots. It surprises me to see that so many do not understand the simple principle of controlling rotor rpm during an autorotation. What gets to me more is the scenario based argumentative postings that appear! I too have been at that same point in flying when I did not have the wisdom I now possess.

 

Again, best to all and safe flying!

 

Mikemv

[NeverQuestionMe]

I try not to poop on somebodys great wisdom like the wise old owl who knows everything, michelle victorious.

 

Do I really have to quote webster's dictionary for the word sarcasm?

 

But I will...

 

Main Entry: sar·casm

Pronunciation: \ˈsär-ˌka-zəm\

Function: noun

Etymology: French or Late Latin; French sarcasme, from Late Latin sarcasmos, from Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein to tear flesh, bite the lips in rage, sneer, from sark-, sarx flesh; probably akin to Avestan thwarəs- to cut

Date: 1550

1 : a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain

2 a : a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual b : the use or language of sarcasm

 

so yes. I do pull as much collective as possible before the flare. Sometimes I even bend the collective in my efforts. I get about a thirty to fourty five degree bend on that bar. It works out well for the next guy.

 

See my previous statement regarding sarcasm.

 

Lather.

Rinse.

Repeat.

 

I have a bakers dozen of hours of experience instruction.

 

Trust me.

 

See my handle.

 

Its true.

 

It would be unwise(after 40+ years experience) to ignore my experience.

[NeverQuestionMe]

RockyMountainPilot, you are right on track.

 

I guess the professionals prefer to trash a helicopter with the RPM in the green band, or higher. Or lower. Or changing rapidly one way or another. Controlled engine out landings are not possible in this day and age.

 

 

 

 

*psst*

 

we did it in NAM ok.

 

Surely the whole "helocopter" is less expensive than the rotor hub and bearings.

[RockyMountainPilot]

RMPilot, it is your stated attitude about exceeding limtiations that is life threatening. I did no back tracking? There is an obvious short coming in helicopter training and many of the statements here support that fact. My intent is to add to pilot perspectives about elements of autorotations and proper control of Rotor RPM during the maneuver.

 

You have obviously never been in a life threatening emergency, because the last thing you think about are limitations. If the helicopter's engine quits, that helicopter has just forfeited its right to be treated with care and respect. I will exceed any limitation for the sake of safety.

 

You are at the bottom of an autorotation, and you begin the flare. You have uneven terrain and various small obstacles in your LZ. Do you want 100% rotor RPM to set down the helicopter, or 125%?

 

And please explain how exceeding the rotor RPM limits is dangerous during an actual auto? Do you think the blades will fly off if you go above redline?

[helonorth]

I WILL NOW IMPART MY WISDOM (kidding)! This has gotten a little off track. You have to do what you have to do to keep the RPM under control during an autorotation. All helicopters are different and may require a different technique. As I said I have no time in a Robinson, but I might guess that's what he's flying. Raising the collective during the glide will lower the RPM. If a large flair is going to be needed (no wind, heavy or both) you better have the RPM in the lower green or you can easily overspeed during the flair, right? If the engine really quit and you overspeed, oh well. If it happens during training, it's a costly "oh sh*t".

[Mikemv]

Helonorth, those are words of wisdom and nicely stated!

 

If I was engine out to an LZ that was not level and had many small obstacles (like many randon LZ's), during the flare I would monitor rotor RPM, check it at the red line if it built to that point, thus loading the rotor sysyem and substantially decreasing rate of descent and ground speed making the flare much more effective and providing for the best chance of survivability and successful outcome. Then, set the touch down attitude and use 100% or less rotor RPM to perform a good auto without an overspeed. Checking the rotor with collective and loading the rotor makes the flare tremendously effective, especially if you want near zero ground run in said LZ. This makes a good autorotation to whatever area is made, good, bad or in between.

 

This could also be ANY training auto to a runway without an overspeed, yet maximized for success. I realize that only in CFI courses are pilots doing touchdowns or at factory schools. Students are doing power recoveries which I believe are harder than full down autos but no reason not to learn to control rotor RPM.

 

When any of you go thru Bell, Eurocopter or other factory schools, you will learn to check rotor RPM at the upper red line. You may also learn about how effective loading the rotor system is in the flare. I do not recommend that anyone go out and start practicing these without an experienced CFI to demo/instruct.

 

I did not mention anyone else's techniques or attitudes and only a very good way to accomplish a very safe auto without an overspeed of the rotor system (whichever system).

 

As to other post about the Law of Primancy and having students monitor and control rotor RPM in autos, I do believe that it should be taught/demoed/instilled from the beginning. I was taught this way from the onset in military flight school!

 

Again, best to all, be safe, MikeMV

[Guest pokey]

that helicopter has just forfeited its right to be treated with care and respect.

 

 

OMG ! (reminds me of my Xwife)

[palmfish]

To the OP:

 

Can you define/describe what your CFI means by "Checking the Collective?"

 

I've never heard the term before.

 

I know in the military, I learned the emergency procedure for Engine Failure in Flight as: C P T A - Collective adjust, Pedals adjust, Throttle adjust, Airspeed adjust. That's it.

 

And the callouts during training (if I remember correctly) were: Collective down, Rotor in the green, Aircraft in trim, Airspeed set. Then, if there's time: Fuel cutoff and a Mayday call.

 

Military training is much like any civilian schoolhouse training. You learn it one way, master it, then get "real world" experience after you get your wings and enter the "real world." It was at least 4 or 5 years after getting my wings before an experienced instructor took me under his wing and showed me what a helicopter is really capable of and how many options I really have during an emergency, in the mountains, etc. I didn't learn about any "unorthodox" methods (zero airspeed, backwards, spiraling, etc.) until several years of PIC flying.

 

Bottom line for you right now? Talk with your new CFI and discuss his technique being different than your previous instructor. Appreciate the good feedback you've gotten here but understand that the schoolhouse is different than the real world. Master the schoolhouse practice auto (however you and your instructor determine you should perform it), pass your check ride, then seek advanced training on engine out techniques.

[RockyMountainPilot]

Helonorth, those are words of wisdom and nicely stated!

 

If I was engine out to an LZ that was not level and had many small obstacles (like many randon LZ's), during the flare I would monitor rotor RPM, check it at the red line if it built to that point, thus loading the rotor sysyem and substantially decreasing rate of descent and ground speed making the flare much more effective and providing for the best chance of survivability and successful outcome. Then, set the touch down attitude and use 100% or less rotor RPM to perform a good auto without an overspeed. Checking the rotor with collective and loading the rotor makes the flare tremendously effective, especially if you want near zero ground run in said LZ. This makes a good autorotation to whatever area is made, good, bad or in between.

 

This could also be ANY training auto to a runway without an overspeed, yet maximized for success. I realize that only in CFI courses are pilots doing touchdowns or at factory schools. Students are doing power recoveries which I believe are harder than full down autos but no reason not to learn to control rotor RPM.

 

When any of you go thru Bell, Eurocopter or other factory schools, you will learn to check rotor RPM at the upper red line. You may also learn about how effective loading the rotor system is in the flare. I do not recommend that anyone go out and start practicing these without an experienced CFI to demo/instruct.

 

I did not mention anyone else's techniques or attitudes and only a very good way to accomplish a very safe auto without an overspeed of the rotor system (whichever system).

 

As to other post about the Law of Primancy and having students monitor and control rotor RPM in autos, I do believe that it should be taught/demoed/instilled from the beginning. I was taught this way from the onset in military flight school!

 

Again, best to all, be safe, MikeMV

 

I see you ignored all my other questions.

 

Let me ask you this. Have you ever had to set down a helicopter with your legs and arms shaking because you encountered a real emergency that scared the crap out of you?

 

And why don't you explain what is so bad about exceeding rotor limits in the flare of a real autorotation. It is perfectly safe to do and it is safer then having less RPM. And it is perfectly legal.

 

Now, don't bash someone and not answer there questions. Doesn't look good.

[Mikemv]

Dear Rocky Mountain Pilot. It does not add anything to the knowledge of the up and coming pilots to argue with you and answer senselesss scenarios. You constantly state that you will overspeed your rotor to 125% and that the helo looses the right to survive. How many of those have you practiced to the ground? One, ten, 1,000+? You tell everyone your perspective on flying. I choose to fly the helo within limits and do the best I can all the way to the ground! I also instruct my students and other pilots to perform this way.

 

I have had numerous engine out emergencies (piston & turbine)from various flight postions, plus loss of TR and gear box during take off from a barge on a river, eng/x-msn/tr chip lights, hydraulic failure, clogged fuel injectors during take off over water, deflated floats in flight, etc. So to answer that question, NO, I have never had a real emergency and set one down with arms and legs shaking because I was scared. I flew the helicopter and applied emergency procedures to the level of my certificate and experience. I do not say I was not scared or afraid, just flew the helo first. Time to squeeze the Charmin later. Be a pilot first.

 

I have stood in front of my peers at HAI CFI Renewals and lead group discussions on autos and other maneuvers and been well received and respected. I would like you to stand in front of your peers and rant on your overspeeed mentality. Oh, and by the way, the FAA and manufacturers pilots are in the room during the presentation. IF your 125% is in a Robinson, ask Tim Tucker to comment on your procedure. I flew with Tim in 1982.

 

I apologize to everyone else for this post but RHP will just not give up his attack!!!!!!

 

Best to All, be safe, MikeMV

[67november]

Dear Rocky Mountain Pilot. It does not add anything to the knowledge of the up and coming pilots to argue with you and answer senselesss scenarios. You constantly state that you will overspeed your rotor to 125% and that the helo looses the right to survive. How many of those have you practiced to the ground? One, ten, 1,000+? You tell everyone your perspective on flying. I choose to fly the helo within limits and do the best I can all the way to the ground! I also instruct my students and other pilots to perform this way.

 

I have had numerous engine out emergencies (piston & turbine)from various flight postions, plus loss of TR and gear box during take off from a barge on a river, eng/x-msn/tr chip lights, hydraulic failure, clogged fuel injectors during take off over water, deflated floats in flight, etc. So to answer that question, NO, I have never had a real emergency and set one down with arms and legs shaking because I was scared. I flew the helicopter and applied emergency procedures to the level of my certificate and experience. I do not say I was not scared or afraid, just flew the helo first. Time to squeeze the Charmin later. Be a pilot first.

 

I have stood in front of my peers at HAI CFI Renewals and lead group discussions on autos and other maneuvers and been well received and respected. I would like you to stand in front of your peers and rant on your overspeeed mentality. Oh, and by the way, the FAA and manufacturers pilots are in the room during the presentation. IF your 125% is in a Robinson, ask Tim Tucker to comment on your procedure. I flew with Tim in 1982.

 

I apologize to everyone else for this post but RHP will just not give up his attack!!!!!!

 

Best to All, be safe, MikeMV

 

Mike no need to apologize for your post, with the little experience that RMP has in helicopters and his massive over abundance of arrogace and holyer than thou attutude he has been completely ignorant of the massive amount of pilots here that have far more experience than he will ever have.

 

RMP you can take your childish attitude back over to JH and stay there as far as I and many others are concerned.

[crashed_05]

rodrop, see what you started! lol

[RockyMountainPilot]

Dear Rocky Mountain Pilot. It does not add anything to the knowledge of the up and coming pilots to argue with you and answer senselesss scenarios. You constantly state that you will overspeed your rotor to 125% and that the helo looses the right to survive. How many of those have you practiced to the ground? One, ten, 1,000+? You tell everyone your perspective on flying. I choose to fly the helo within limits and do the best I can all the way to the ground! I also instruct my students and other pilots to perform this way.

 

I have had numerous engine out emergencies (piston & turbine)from various flight postions, plus loss of TR and gear box during take off from a barge on a river, eng/x-msn/tr chip lights, hydraulic failure, clogged fuel injectors during take off over water, deflated floats in flight, etc. So to answer that question, NO, I have never had a real emergency and set one down with arms and legs shaking because I was scared. I flew the helicopter and applied emergency procedures to the level of my certificate and experience. I do not say I was not scared or afraid, just flew the helo first. Time to squeeze the Charmin later. Be a pilot first.

 

I have stood in front of my peers at HAI CFI Renewals and lead group discussions on autos and other maneuvers and been well received and respected. I would like you to stand in front of your peers and rant on your overspeeed mentality. Oh, and by the way, the FAA and manufacturers pilots are in the room during the presentation. IF your 125% is in a Robinson, ask Tim Tucker to comment on your procedure. I flew with Tim in 1982.

 

I apologize to everyone else for this post but RHP will just not give up his attack!!!!!!

 

Best to All, be safe, MikeMV

 

You attacked me buddy.

[RockyMountainPilot]

Mike no need to apologize for your post, with the little experience that RMP has in helicopters and his massive over abundance of arrogace and holyer than thou attutude he has been completely ignorant of the massive amount of pilots here that have far more experience than he will ever have.

 

RMP you can take your childish attitude back over to JH and stay there as far as I and many others are concerned.

 

How much experience do I have in helicopters? How much experience do I have wrenching on them?

 

You can't argue your techniques successfully, so you resort to ad hominom, eh? I would call that childish.

[67november]

How much experience do I have in helicopters? How much experience do I have wrenching on them?

 

You can't argue your techniques successfully, so you resort to ad hominom, eh? I would call that childish.

 

I don't need to argue, you've already posted your experience on this forum.

[RockyMountainPilot]

I don't need to argue, you've already posted your experience on this forum.

 

So, your argument is "because I said so"? Many pilots want to know the reasons and understand why certain procedures exist before they blindly follow them. Why not share your thoughts with us lowly inexperienced pilots as to why you should not attempt to get maximum rotor RPM in the flare during an actual engine failure.

[mechanic]

I have not been in the air awhile.. But, I remember my cfi's saying "watch rpm" or "rotor speed" if my rotor tach was moving out of the green arc during auto's. Already being in a auto situation, why not just use "watch rpm" or the such to draw attention to the rotor tach? Ya, check collective woulda prob made me think just a second "what tha..."

 

I too have had cfi changes, I really don't like it. I am presolo and was getting good at turning base with my cfi when she left. Second cfi, he didn't like how my first cfi had me turn, but was ok with me doing it that way and I tried it his way sometimes. Third cfi, made me do it his way only, really messed me up. This same cfi did not like the for and aft cyclic to adjust rotor rpms either. Said I didn't know enough about helicopters to fully understand how to use that skill. Had me only use the collective to chase the rrpm only. I thought about tellin him that, thats what I am paying you for, to teach me the skill set! He didn't like the video Autorations in the R22 that Helicopter Concepts had put out. I tried to talk to him about those techn's in the video. He didn't even whan to talk about it. I quit flying with that guy. Jerk with a major ego.

 

RMP,

I guess I don't understand the point your trying to make. You do not need 125% rrpm on every auto. Autoing into a hole or rough terrain ok, maybe. But, if your landing to a parking lot or field why overspeed the rotor?? I guess I am missing your point, I am tired also...

[RockyMountainPilot]

I have not been in the air awhile.. But, I remember my cfi's saying "watch rpm" or "rotor speed" if my rotor tach was moving out of the green arc during auto's. Already being in a auto situation, why not just use "watch rpm" or the such to draw attention to the rotor tach? Ya, check collective woulda prob made me think just a second "what tha..."

 

I too have had cfi changes, I really don't like it. I am presolo and was getting good at turning base with my cfi when she left. Second cfi, he didn't like how my first cfi had me turn, but was ok with me doing it that way and I tried it his way sometimes. Third cfi, made me do it his way only, really messed me up. This same cfi did not like the for and aft cyclic to adjust rotor rpms either. Said I didn't know enough about helicopters to fully understand how to use that skill. Had me only use the collective to chase the rrpm only. I thought about tellin him that, thats what I am paying you for, to teach me the skill set! He didn't like the video Autorations in the R22 that Helicopter Concepts had put out. I tried to talk to him about those techn's in the video. He didn't even whan to talk about it. I quit flying with that guy. Jerk with a major ego.

 

RMP,

I guess I don't understand the point your trying to make. You do not need 125% rrpm on every auto. Autoing into a hole or rough terrain ok, maybe. But, if your landing to a parking lot or field why overspeed the rotor?? I guess I am missing your point, I am tired also...

 

I am only talking about real autos, not practice. If you are landing on nice flat level terrain, and you don't think you need the extra energy, then go right ahead. But what are the chances of that? I fly in Colorado, so many landing places in the mountains are not level and full of obstacles. I want as much energy in those rotors as I can get to hopefully set down with little or no forward speed, and maybe even make some small adjustments if I need to. If you plunk it down on the side of a hill, you are going to be more likely to roll over then if you set it down gently. I really don't care about the helicopter at that point. If the engine quits, I figure the insurance company just bought themselves a helicopter. My only goal after that is to make sure that myself and my passengers remain unharmed.

 

One thing to remember, is that in a real emergency your adrenaline kicks in and you are not going to do everything like you did in training. Better to give yourself more options when you likely started with less than what you would normally have during training.

 

Imagine you are landing at a parking lot. You flare with normal RPM and a care pulls in front of you. You don't have anything extra to maneuver. You survive, but kill the driver. Just maybe, you could have been able to go over the top of the car, of even get it to a full stop before the carfi you over sped the rotor. I can come up with a million scenarios where having more rotor RPM could make a big difference. No one has given me a reason why not to overspeed the rotor during an actual engine failure other than "Because that is not the way I was trained", or "because I said so". If is like going to the doctor and s/he says s/he is going to cut your nuts off because it will be good for you. Wouldn't you want a good reason before you believe him/her?

[NeverQuestionMe]

I was looking back on the thread to see exactly how the thread got to this point, and things were not exactly making sense. Until I noticed..

 

This post has been edited by Mikemv: Yesterday, 09:41

This post has been edited by Mikemv: Yesterday, 10:00

This post has been edited by Mikemv: Yesterday, 10:07

This post has been edited by Mikemv: Yesterday, 10:10

This post has been edited by Mikemv: Yesterday, 10:12

 

I am not trashing anybody here, but when the core comments and discussion points have been removed anybody who is trying to follow the thread will be confused and think RockyMountainPilot is a lunatic.

 

A person changing their story days later should make anybody question the validity of any other post. Make a statement, stick with it. If views change, then man up and admit it. I was wrong once in the late 80's when I thought that the big hair bands would never go away.

[helonorth]

But we are talking about practice autorotations. At least we were. If you want to be a test pilot and overspeed it during the real thing, knock yourself out. Here is one reason not to overspeed it: the flight manual. You gotta do what you gotta do, but to say you are going to overspeed automatically doesn't make sense to me.

Edited September 7, 2009 by helonorth