I'm wondering if there is any truth in any of this

[AM1212]

Hello, I was on Facebook the other day and read that somebody had posted this:

 

"Since 1994, Group 3 Aviation has been deceiving potential pilots. According to the National Transportation Saftey Board (www.ntsb.gov) their accidents were the results of pilot error committed by their flight instructors or maintenance which the NTSB deemed inadequate. The company is owned by the Chief Pilot and is operated by his wife. His wife holds no real credibility in the aviation community. Her claims of being a helicopter pilot are nothing short or a sales pitch to aquire one's business. Her medical has been revoked many times due to her usage of weight loss drugs. The school remains one of the more expensive schools in Southern California. The costs advertised on their website don't include the countless surcharges they impose on everything. In addition to their already below average safety standards, Group 3 has been know to demand much from their employees. Employees are required to be present in the office 6 days a week without compensation unless they're conducting a ground lesson or flying their aircraft. Each instructor hired by Group 3 is a brand new instructor who lacks true flight time in the ever demanding helicopter field. Each instructor has slightly more experience than a new student pilot. With all that said, the information provided is not a matter of opinion, it can be verified by a visit to the ntsb website at ntsb.gov, accident database, keyword Group 3 Aviation."

 

This same person also stated "Group 3 Aviation is one of the biggest frauds in aviation. To date, the company has had 10 accidents, one resulting in a fatality. According to the NTSB (www.ntsb.gov), each was the result of "inadequate maintenance" or error by their employees."

 

I was wondering if anybody knows if there is any truth in any of this. Ive read the reports on the NTSB web site and it only shows 2 accidents with no fatalities. I dont know what to believe when all i've heard is good things about Group 3 Aviation. Any information will be very helpful.

[Hedge36]

No dog in the hunt, but if all you can find is one anonymous web basher, I'd be more suspect of the source.

[Goldy]

I can tell you the fact as I know it. I was flying in the same wash on the same day that one of their 300 ships hit a power line. In fact, I talked to that ship on the radio just 10 minutes before the accident. The student was killed, the CFI very seriously injured.

 

I have no personal first hand knowledge of their other incidents or accidents. I would bet there are students out there that could find reasons to bash just about every flight school that I know of.

 

If you wish, I can give you the email address for a student that was very satisfied flying there, and another student that was very dissatisfied. Again, I could probably do the same for a long list of schools, not to mention SSH.

 

So much of your learning experience is really based on one thing...you. You can step up, study, ask questions and learn, or you can just show up 1/2 an hour late to your scheduled flights. I've seen both kind of students.

 

I'm curious why you couldn't find the fatal accident, it was only a few years ago, and I know its in the database. I still think of it every time I fly nearby.

 

And the comment about having low time CFI's...excuse me? Is that not our entire industry with a few exceptions??

 

Goldy

Edited September 20, 2009 by Goldy

[Goldy]

I'm curious why you couldn't find the fatal accident, it was only a few years ago, and I know its in the database. I still think of it every time I fly nearby.

Goldy

 

Look up N61466 on 2/25/06. You can read it for yourself.

[The Guardian]

When I was researching flight schools I researched this and as I recall there were at least 7 or 8 accidents going back to 1994. Three were attributed to maintenance issues, as I recall two were due to ground resonance with the fault being that the dampeners on the struts were not maintained and the other one involved a throttle cable and spring adjustment that only caused a problem at very low throttle. This manifested itself in a hard landing during a practice autorotation to the surface. Then there was the fatal accident referenced by Gordy. The other three I believe were much older entries involving R-22's and two were renter pilot errors and the one was a CFI giving instruction to his girlfriend that resulted in a rollover accident.

 

So that is what I came across in my research. I don't know what particular grind the person on Facebook has but as always there is two sides to every story. It seems like it got personal at the end regarding the owner and his wife as opposed to factual. I did take a 1 hour flight with them and here were the pro's and con's that I came up with.

 

PROS

1. Convenience - hey, they're five minutes from my house

2. Lots of ships - I believe at least 3-300's and 2 or 3-R44's

3. Really, really liked the instructor - He had 700 hrs. time in type - Schweizer 300

4. Part 141 School

 

This was my first flight, subsequently did an hour in an R-22, an hour in a R-44 and an hour in a 280FX, all with different schools in different regions for the most part. My hands down favorite was the 280FX followed by the 300... just didn't care for the Robinson's as I really liked the beefy collective through my legs on the other ships (insert your jokes here now, lol). ALL instructors I must say were great and had about equal times across all of them. I must have gotten lucky as I would not hesitate to train with any of them.

 

CONS

1. A little more expensive than R-22 schools but competitive with other 300's I priced out in the area. The fact of the matter is that conducting business in CA costs more. Property taxes on the aircraft are high, 1.2% / year, I'm sure rents at Van Nuys are high, 10% sales tax and on and on. For instance, I flew an impeccably maintained R-44 with East Coast Aero Club in Bedford, MA for $369/hour with instructor. MA has no sales tax or property tax on Aircraft or Aviation parts or expenses.... Group 3's and other CA schools charge from $465 to $495 for a R-44.

 

2. After prepaying for my first flight over the phone, when I arrived I was not on the schedule. Had to cool my heels for an hour while the instructor was called to come in. No big deal, but I pay attention to details and expect the same as isn't this a "details business"?. Also someone went out and pre-flighted the helicopter while we did a quick 20-minute ground school. This was due to the fact the instructor had to fly a scheduled photo mission in about 90 minutes. It was things like this that mad a big impression on me as it went back to "the details" thing.

 

3. After deciding that I would most likely train with them, I asked for a copy of the training Syllabus. I wanted to compare it to the other schools I flew at. One of the other schools were Part 141 (North East Aero Club) that other 2 were Part 61. All of the schools were more than happy to provide me with their training syllabus but at Group 3 I was treated as if I was asking for state secrets. I was treated very poorly on the phone over the matter and ultimately was told that the syllabus was "Private and Confidential".....

 

4. All the other schools would give me "block" rates even if I paid "by the hour". Group 3 wanted at least a 10-hour deposit to start the training.

 

So that has been my experience. The jury is still out for me though as to where I'll ultimately train. Group 3 is still on the list because I feel that I can deal with the back office issues I've had in a direct manner if I decide to fly there.

 

Sorry if this is long winded but after lurking for a long time on the boards I figured I could add my experience to this particular discussion. And in the end, when trying to decide on a school, by all means, go fly at a bunch of different places and different aircraft. The experience in my opinion was worth it's weight in gold.

[fry]

I was just curious so I checked the NTSB website...not that difficult to research...Group 3 accidents for the last ten years:

 

1/22/00 N4072T

7/14/00 N169CW

7/2/02 N4072T

4/27/04 N61415

9/25/04 N61413

2/25/06 N61466 (1 fatality)

9/9/06 N323CP

 

PS: During the same period Silver State had 28 accidents and 5 fatalities.

[AM1212]

Thanks alot for the comments, they all helped alot. Sorry I realized my mistake, I had put Van Nuys as the city thats why it only showed 2 accidents. I can now read all the reports. Goldy if I could get those emails I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks.

[R22139RJ]

I would seriously question the facebook user's credibility. I don't think the DPE or FAA would issue a CFI certificated if the pilot had a knowledge or ability level slightly better than a student pilot. That statement alone is insulting considering i just got my CFI. I can at least fly to a private level. If there is no wind with a stable atmosphere.

Edited September 21, 2009 by R22139RJ

[Goldy]

and an hour in a 280FX,

 

Guardian- Where did you find a 280FX for rent?

 

and isnt Gordy slang for gordo, which is spanish for fat?? Hey I'm a big guy...but not that big !!

 

Goldy

[The Guardian]

And here I am talking about details, my apologies Goldy! The 280 was up in San Carlos, CA at a place called Bay Helicoptours... just south of San Francisco. Although I believe we flew in a 280C model. I recently did take a private flight with an individual with a 280FX but other than a little styling here and there they felt identical. The 280C I believe had no correlator on the throttle though. I liked the Enstrom so much I've been considering Rocky Mountain Rotorcraft but I have not spoke with them yet. I am considering flying to Denver for a weekend and taking a flight with them. I'm also considering the option of splitting up each rating around the country to gain experience in different areas, perhaps the Private here in LA in a 300, the instrument back at East Coast Aero Club in the R-44 and commercial and mtn. flying at Rocky Mountain in the 280FX. May be a great way to diversify 200 hours of experience or so, still mulling it all over as I'm on a non-aviation related work contract till the end of the year. Then I have some freedom on my hands.

[500E]

Not standing up for SSH Fry but the per hour \ student accident rate is difficult to quantify.

[John90290]

I trained here for most of my private. Good instructors with lots of hours in my case. Never had an issue with any of the birds. They seem to have a lot of helicopters and most work in a dry river wash for training thus I would assume higher risk than patterns at a non towered airport with a two bird school only simulating HP take offs and confined area ops vice actually landing in a stand of trees and working out of Van Nuys which is littered with helicopter and private plane traffic.

 

Great school and unfortunately, accidents happen at great schools and crapy schools.

 

I flew by and looked at the accident site once where the student died and man, the wire and even the pole was so well hidden it could have happened to the highest time pilot on this forum.

[FND]

Wow, you couldn't be more humorously wrong about Group 3. I've had 30 years of experience with a variety of flight schools. Both personally, and as gifts of flight I've given. Never have I come across a facility as professional and nearly perfect as Group 3. I'm in rotorcraft training there now, and it's sometimes even painfully professional. The syllabus that they supposedly didn't show this guy is exhaustive, and they follow it to the letter. When my flying (fun) got ahead of my ground school (less enjoyable) they literally grounded me until I caught up. Because it was safer that way. Each of the instructors is light-years beyond the typical chief pilots of most schools. The administrative staff, led by Peter's wife Claudia, is pleasant as can be, but God help the man who forgets to fill out even a single line on a flight form. Today I was to do my first solo cross-country, and they wouldn't even think of letting me go, because it was 101 degrees, and their internal rule is no solos over 100. Group 3 is the most professional flight outfit of any sort that I've experienced in 30 years. And, anyone who claims otherwise probably wasn't allowed to fly there because he couldn't pay his bill. Smells like sour grapes, to me.

[RkyMtnHI]

And here I am talking about details, my apologies Goldy! The 280 was up in San Carlos, CA at a place called Bay Helicoptours... just south of San Francisco. Although I believe we flew in a 280C model. I recently did take a private flight with an individual with a 280FX but other than a little styling here and there they felt identical. The 280C I believe had no correlator on the throttle though. I liked the Enstrom so much I've been considering Rocky Mountain Rotorcraft but I have not spoke with them yet. I am considering flying to Denver for a weekend and taking a flight with them. I'm also considering the option of splitting up each rating around the country to gain experience in different areas, perhaps the Private here in LA in a 300, the instrument back at East Coast Aero Club in the R-44 and commercial and mtn. flying at Rocky Mountain in the 280FX. May be a great way to diversify 200 hours of experience or so, still mulling it all over as I'm on a non-aviation related work contract till the end of the year. Then I have some freedom on my hands.

 

 

I happen to know the guys at RMR pretty well and sincerely believe that they have a great operation and would recommend them to anyone that asks. They also have access to an Enstrom turbine and the owner has a ton of mountain time here in Denver. I like your idea of flying in different areas, but believe your most important time will be above 5K! Your 44 time will be pretty important as well as you need 50 hours to teach AND Jack has a nice instrument 44 to fly as well. Both of his high time instructors are CFII's and have over 1000 hours in the R44. You should check them out! Jack also writes for Pilot Magazine so you can get to know him a little there...

 

aloha,

dp

[Goldy]

working out of Van Nuys which is littered with helicpter and private plane traffice.

 

Guardian- I sent you a PM with contacts. John makes a good point however, I always thought VNY was a great place to learn a busy airspace. As a student you get rid of your shyness in a hurry when you are on the radio constantly..

 

Good Luck wherever you land,

 

Goldy

[RkyMtnHI]

Guardian- I sent you a PM with contacts. John makes a good point however, I always thought VNY was a great place to learn a busy airspace. As a student you get rid of your shyness in a hurry when you are on the radio constantly..

 

Good Luck wherever you land,

 

Goldy

 

 

Of course i agree with the Golden Boy, i flew with him once thru all the air spaces around Torrance ... man do they get use to traffic, air spaces and radio calls.. FAST! I was amazed at how easy it was for him.. and i thought Denver was busy!!

 

dp

[Rob4orr]

In August of 2008 I started my search for a helicopter flight school. Based on a friends recommendation I contacted Group 3 Aviation.

 

After making a few calls with questions about the school and the training I scheduled my Intro Flight to get the ball rolling... My initial experience was very pleasant and I really enjoyed the instructor. As far as I was concerned there was no reason to look any further. Why mess with a positive experience!

 

I have been training there ever since and am struggling to think of a negative experience.

 

As far as the comments posted about the owner/ operators of the school (Peter and Claudia).... I am a little more than irritated to read the comments posted. They sound more like personal attacks from a disgruntled acquaintance than anything else.... I have only spent a few MONTHS around these people but I challenge you to find more professional people. Their professionalism and friendly demeanor are one of the things that ultimately helped solidify my decision to train there.

 

In effort to make myself as safe as possible, I frequently go to the NTSB site and review rotorcraft accidents from all over the country. For me, there is no better way to emphasize the importance of learning how to do a proper pre-flight, the importance of checking maintenance records, the weather and to emphasize the importance of avoiding wire strikes and being proficient at emergency procedures. In doing so I have reviewed the accidents that have occurred at Group 3 Aviation, as well as, other schools and ultimately came to the conclusion that.... accidents are terribly unfortunate, but they happen! The instructors do not attempt to shy away from the accidents that have occurred at Group 3 and they are often part of formal ground training. They have made it a point to learn from them.

 

As far as maintenance goes, again, very impressive! Prior to flight training you are asked in every case about the helicopters condition (based on the pre-flight inspection); what the helicopters status is in reference to its current hours vs. 25, 50, 75, 100 Hour, Annual, Transponder inspections, etc. If you don't know... you don't go! You are also asked about any sqwaks (sp?) on the helicopter. May sound routine to many but I went to a training session put on by the local Van Nuys FSDO and was shocked to hear how many other pilots in the room admitted that they are not required by the flight school or aircraft rental facility to do the same. Sad really... I would not be flying there if I didn't feel that there maintenance was impeccable. I happen to like coming home to my wife and two little ones!

 

NEGATIVES: I have been pretty disappointed that they don't have a better handle on controlling the weather. They do have very strict policies on when you can and cannot fly - especially solo. I have had to reschedule many days to meet my solo requirements because Group 3 wasn't able to control the wind, the temperature or the visibility.... lately due to smoke from the brush fires.... Shame on Group 3 for that!

 

I would be happy to discuss with anyone the professionalism and quality of instruction at Group 3. I realize I got a little bit long winded hear... but felt the need to vent Feel free to let me know if you want to contact me off-line.

[Goldy]

Rob- great post and always good to hear from a student first hand. It hasn't been mentioned, but isn't Peter also a DPE and a Robinson factory school pilot? I seem to remember someone told me he was, maybe you could confirm?

 

Goldy

[John90290]

Peter is a DPE.