Opinions on learning in a 280FX?

[HoverMatt]

I'm weighing the pros and cons of going to a school that teaches in a 280fx vs the many in my area that teach in R-22's. On the pro side I have read that the 280fx is a safer and more forgiving aircraft to learn in, especially here at high altitude. On the con side I am concerned that without R-22 experience I will be limited to getting a job at the school that teaches me or not getting one at all. After reading the many "professional aviator reality checks" on this board and elsewhere, I am wondering if that's not a true assumption for any new pilot though, and if I should disregard that variable in making my decision.

 

So ultimately my question is this: All else being equal, does a 280fx pilot have a significantly lower chance of employment than a R-22 pilot? Not looking for statistics, just a educated opinion from those of you in the training industry.

 

Thanks!

 

(Pre-Hover)Matt

[AStarB3]

All CFIs have a pretty low chance of employment right now. The best advise I can give you is to go with what you can afford. If it was up to me I would have trained in the R44 all the way. I have no experience in the 280fx which I am sure is a wonderful helicopter (unless someone wants to take me up) but having flown the R22 i jumped right in the OH58 and 206 L3 and flew without any help from my CFI. I don't know if 280 pilots have had the same experience but I can say that anyone who nocks the R22 hasn't flown one and it's hard to beat the cost.

[Galadrium]

There is an extreme difference between a 280FX and an R22. Its a bit like comparing a Ford escort to a Mustang GT. You will most likely enjoy flying the FX way more. You are also correct that it is a far more capable, and forgiving aircraft to fly. You are the only one who can determine how much this additional safety and performance is worth to you. The 280FX is going to be more expensive to fly than the R22, so the increased cost will be another factor as well.

 

The answer to your question pretty much depends on what you would like to do with your flying career once you get your Comm/CFI. If you want to get a job flying R22s you should probably get a good amount of time in R22s. Getting a job as a pilot, especially a low time pilot, has far more to do with your personality and willingness to work hard and explore opportunities than the type of aircraft you trained with.

 

As someone who owns a flight school training exclusively with Enstroms I can tell you that there are no shortage of people looking to train in Enstrom helicopters. We use an Enstrom F-28A for most of our flight training. One thing I have noticed using Enstroms for training is the type of student we tend to attract. They are far less often the young people looking to make a career as helicopter pilots, although we do get a fair amount of those also. The students that tend to gravitate to the Enstrom are those looking to fly as a hobby and rent or buy a helicopter upon completion. These students are generally older, usually more financially stable, and are far more consistent in their training.

 

Since most new CFIs are eying a job after they get their training finished, there is a ton of competition at these schools. The R22 schools are going to be filled with people, just like you, competing for the few open CFI jobs if they even exist. I'm not saying this is always going to be the case, just a few things I've noticed personally.

 

Good luck!

[280fxColorado]

Hey Matt,

 

To answer your question: No, training in a 280fx will not decrease your chances of employment after training. It might even help you out. As far as getting your first CFI job, you might consider a bit of variety in your training to make yourself more versatile and marketable. Do your private and instrument licenses in a Schweizer or Robinson and commercial training in the 280, maybe fire up a turbine a few times. As long as you meet insurance minimums, your first employers will not be too picky about what choppers you have flown.

 

I have about 600hrs total time (r22, 300c, r44, 280fx, 480b) with more than 300 in the 280fx and hands down the 280fx is my favorite piston. Takes a little getting used to the lag (turbocharger plus high inertia rotor system), but once you get the hang of the power management (gentle take-offs and patient recoveries) it's a real pleasure to fly. Very forgiving, stout construction, clever rotor design, outstanding performance at altitude, and uncommonly stable even in turbulence (imagine hands/feet free flying in smooth air, landings at 12,000ft plus, gentle autorotations at 9,000ft Density Altitude). Feels like you're strapped into something substantial. We flew in 40kts wind gusting 50's the other day without issue. Full pedal turns in 35kts or more without running out of tail rotor authority.

 

The 280fx is an outstanding training platform with performance capabilities that will allow you to take your training experience much further than other helicopters. The often chimed anthem "if you can fly the R22 you can fly any helicopter" holds true for all makes and models. However, your specific training experience WILL make a difference (like high altitude, mountain winds navigation, mountain cross country flights and landings @ 10k plus, enhanced autorotation training, and expanded emergency procedure training like stuck pedals and controls). It's not what ship you fly, it's the experience you've had that will count.

 

Your final (and perhaps most important) consideration should be safety. There are plenty of discussions comparing training helicopters elsewhere (like here, OR here, OR this one) but the truth is the R22 was never designed as a training helicopter. The R22 is a fine machine and very capable and safe when flown properly. But in training situations (especially at higher altitudes!) it leaves a very slim margin for error. You have to ask yourself if the economics outweigh the safety?? Is there anyone still training in R22s in Colorado?

 

I would be happy to discuss the fantastic 280fx with you further. Drop me an email or PM.

 

jon@m1heli.com

Edited August 15, 2010 by 280fxColorado

[r22butters]

To answer your question: No, training in a 280fx will not decrease your chances of employment after training...

 

Ya, that's because there are no more jobs.

 

You may as well stick with the Enstrom, since the chances of getting your career off the ground(no pun intended)are slim to none no matter what you train in.

 

The Enstrom is nice though, pretty easy to fly, and one tough SOB.

[Trans Lift]

Butters you have to stop with all the negativity man, just because it hasn't worked out for you doesn't mean that it won't for someone else.

 

I would train in a 22 over an Enstrom, if you are going to find a job after the chances are it will involve a 22, 300 or a 44. I would advise flying these three machines during your training. You dont see as many jobs in the enstrom as compared to the other three types. If you can fly a 22, you can fly anything!

[r22butters]

Butters you have to stop with all the negativity man, just because it hasn't worked out for you doesn't mean that it won't for someone else.

 

The last job I applied to, the employer mentioned recieving over 400 resumes in just two days. He only hired one pilot, so I doubt I'm the only one here who can't find work.

[rick1128]

Matt,

 

Yes you can get a CFI job after training in an Enstrom. Just ask Heliclay, who is on this board from time to time. I have taken several ex-R22 students in my F28C over the last 2 years. Everyone of them was pleasantly surprised at the stability and comfort of the machine. I learned in the H300 and later got time in the BH47, R44, BH206, AS350 and BH212. The R22 community seems to make a big deal out of transitioning into a B206. I didn't have a problem with the 206 and I never flew a 22. They all follow the same rules of aerodynamics.

[r22butters]

The R22 community seems to make a big deal out of transitioning into a B206...

 

As a member of the R22 community I must say, I've never heard that before. In fact the B206 is undoubtedly the easiest helicopter I've ever flown.

 

MATT,

 

In an effort to be a little more helpful(and if I must, positive), I suggest you find out what the recent grads of your school are doing now. You should then find out what recent grads from your local R22 schools are doing. That may give you an insight on whether or not the R22 would be a better path to a job.

 

You could also try the site Bayhelicoptours, they used to opperate Enstroms from one of my local airports. The owner, Cameron, said he was a rep. for Enstrom, so he may be able to tell you who may soon be in the need for Enstrom pilots?

[Trans Lift]

The last job I applied to, the employer mentioned recieving over 400 resumes in just two days. He only hired one pilot, so I doubt I'm the only one here who can't find work.

 

I never said that you are the only one who can't find work. I said just because it hasn't happened for you, doesn't mean it won't happen for someone else.

 

I have heard that rumor about transitioning into a 206 from a 22 is easier too. I started flying a 44 after 800 hours or so in a 300 and I had no issues, even when I flew a 22 for 1.3 hours.

[BOATFIXERGUY]

I'm weighing the pros and cons of going to a school that teaches in a 280fx vs the many in my area that teach in R-22's.

(Pre-Hover)Matt

 

Just curious...what crazy company is training in R-22's in Colorado?

 

Every so often, a company comes along with the dream of running R22's in Denver. Soon there after, a pool is started on which day that month that R22 is going to end up on an NTSB report. Usually the narrative will start like this:

 

"While in cruise flight, the aircraft was unable to maintain RPM and impacted terrain."

 

If you want to teach in the 22, go somewhere else besides Colorado and fly them. Otherwise you are limited to the awesome Enstrom, the capable 300, or the R44.

 

As far as the Enstrom, as others stated, there is no safer piston out there. The 280 is a dream to fly.

[bossman]

As a member of the R22 community I must say, I've never heard that before. In fact the B206 is undoubtedly the easiest helicopter I've ever flown.

 

MATT,

 

In an effort to be a little more helpful(and if I must, positive), I suggest you find out what the recent grads of your school are doing now. You should then find out what recent grads from your local R22 schools are doing. That may give you an insight on whether or not the R22 would be a better path to a job.

 

You could also try the site Bayhelicoptours, they used to opperate Enstroms from one of my local airports. The owner, Cameron, said he was a rep. for Enstrom, so he may be able to tell you who may soon be in the need for Enstrom pilots?

butters,

The license does not specify 22, 300, Enstrom, or any other specific helicopter. It says rotorcraft. As an employer, when you strap on a helicopter with a potential employee, we can tell whether or not they have the ability to fly a helicopter. I have long been an advocate of flying as many different platforms as you can manage. All the controls do the same thing. It's just that different machines have different feels and quirks. It's all in the comfort level. Once you learn a machine and get comfortable in it, things get easier. I say do the license in whatever is available to you. Everyone should at least do the private, whether or not you ever do the commercial. With the private you can always be building toward the commercial. Not everyone wants to be a commercial pilot. We do lots of add-ons to the fixed wing. You know, not everyone can say "I am a Pilot", and a lot less can say "I am a Helicopter Pilot". Be safe, have fun, and most of all, enjoy the experience while you are young. Put a positive attitude on everything you do, keep your head up, and things will happen.

[r22butters]

butters,

The license does not specify 22, 300, Enstrom, or any other specific helicopter. It says rotorcraft. As an employer, when you strap on a helicopter with a potential employee, we can tell whether or not they have the ability to fly a helicopter. I have long been an advocate of flying as many different platforms as you can manage. All the controls do the same thing. It's just that different machines have different feels and quirks. It's all in the comfort level. Once you learn a machine and get comfortable in it, things get easier. I say do the license in whatever is available to you. Everyone should at least do the private, whether or not you ever do the commercial. With the private you can always be building toward the commercial. Not everyone wants to be a commercial pilot. We do lots of add-ons to the fixed wing. You know, not everyone can say "I am a Pilot", and a lot less can say "I am a Helicopter Pilot". Be safe, have fun, and most of all, enjoy the experience while you are young. Put a positive attitude on everything you do, keep your head up, and things will happen.

 

I don't quite understand what the problem was you had with my comment? However, I have flown six different models, so I understand the comment about "feel", and "quirks".

 

Anyway, I was under the impression that Matt wants to be a career pilot, so he should train in the one that he thinks will help him start that career. Ideally he should get enough time to teach in all of the common trainers, however that is not always possible.

 

By the way, my license actually says Bell 222 on it.

[Trans Lift]

By the way, my license actually says Bell 222 on it.

 

And how do you not have a job??

[r22butters]

And how do you not have a job??

 

That was just a joke,..or wishfull thinking?

 

I don't have a job because;

 

1. There's too much competition

2. I don't have a fat enough logbook

3. I haven't found the right ass to kiss

[HoverMatt]

Thank you everyone for your comments. It definitely helps with perspective, which is hard to have when you are looking into a career you know little about. That makes your advice and insight invaluable.

 

I am indeed planning to become a career pilot. I have a very good I.T. job now which I won't have to leave during training. It will be pay-as-I-go and I will strive to fly 2 hours a week (see guys, some students DO listen to your advice!!!) but probably won't make that every month, so it will take me a minimum of 2, probably closer to 3 years to complete all my training. I am hopeful that by the time I'm ready to look for an instructor job the economy will be on the rebound and jobs will be a little more plentiful.

 

The reason I asked the question that started the thread is that I intend to be an instructor for quite some time and not just for the minimum 1000 hours to get a different job. I am the primary trainer at my company now and I really enjoy teaching people. I think I would enjoy it even more if the office was a couple thousand feet AGL for a few hours per week. Far off in the future, maybe 7+ years from now after my son has graduated high school, I would like to pack up the wife, move out of Colorado, and find a EMS job somewhere a little warmer.

 

Thanks again,

 

Matt

[Goldy]

 

Every so often, a company comes along with the dream of running R22's in Denver. Soon there after, a pool is started on which day that month that R22 is going to end up on an NTSB report. Usually the narrative will start like this:

 

"While in cruise flight, the aircraft was unable to maintain RPM and impacted terrain."

 

Hmm, I've always wanted to own a flight school in Denver. Maybe I could start with a couple R22 HP's......

 

Nah, probably been tried before !!

Edited May 29, 2010 by Goldy

[Trans Lift]

I don't have a job because;

 

1. There's too much competition

2. I don't have a fat enough logbook

3. I haven't found the right ass to kiss

 

1. There is a lot of competition alright but there are guys getting jobs out there with minimum hours for teaching. I know a guy who is on a visa and he found a temporary slot with a school in the northwest to cover for an instructor. That finished, he got 50 hours. Now he has found another possible job with a school on the east coast. He has a checkflight tomorrow.

 

2. Nobody going for initial entry jobs do but it is part luck and being somewhere at the right time. You have to get out there and meet face to face and then call back. Not so easy when money is tight I know but flip burgers to fund a road trip.

 

3. If that's what you're into!!

 

Butters; I was only being sarcastic with the job comment anyway. I knew you were joking!

[RkyMtnHI]

Ohhhhhhhh, there are some comments in this topic that have really pushed my buttons..

 

You all know i try not to stir stuff up much.. but this is too much..

 

 

just a start:

 

"As long as you meet insurance minimums, your first employers will not be too picky about what choppers you have flown."

 

In this comment for one... you make it clear you don't have any idea what employers are looking for... and that you don't understand what it's like out there for new CFIs... your first employer will be a flight school.. and they are very specific on what platforms they fly.. PERIOD!! Do you even have experience here in the US, or are you talking about something else??

 

"It's not what ship you fly, it's the experience you've had that will count." unless you want to get a job teaching somewhere... or unless YOUR school is hiring all of it's new CFIs...

 

"However, when it's being hammered on day in and day out, being put in the most abusive conditions any helicopter could handle, constantly pushing its performance envelope to the limit (and often busting it), you have to ask yourself if the economics outweigh the safety??”

 

Are you saying that you are doing this in a training scenario??

 

just wondering...

 

Oh yeah, to be clear, there are NO flight schools in Denver operating R22s.. (or even in Colorado)

 

Here is some good advice from Butters;

 

"In an effort to be a little more helpful (and if I must, positive), I suggest you find out what the recent grads of your school are doing now. You should then find out what recent grads from your local R22 schools are doing. That may give you an insight on whether or not the R22 would be a better path to a job."

 

Ask how many people the school you are looking at have placed in JOBS this year (and ask for proof of this, like contact numbers or such)... this is probably one of the most important questions you can ask.. unless you don't want a job after training..

 

Rick said;

 

“Yes you can get a CFI job after training in an Enstrom. Just ask Heliclay, who is on this board from time to time.”

 

You can’t really use Clay as an example here; he is NOT the typical pilot/CFI (meaning he is a great stick and an even better CFI) and the guy he went to work for really needed a good CFI and his business fell apart when Clay left!!

 

Here is some good advice by trans lift..

 

“I would train in a 22 over an Enstrom, if you are going to find a job after the chances are it will involve a 22, 300 or a 44. I would advise flying these three machines during your training. You don’t see as many jobs in the enstrom as compared to the other three type.”

 

Rant off (for now)…

 

I really don’t want to bust folks chops.. but I do want to put the right information out there.. before you new guys try to get together and advertise for your schools.. PLEASE get your information straight.. there are people out there that are counting on your info being correct…. And there are people like me that will call you on it!

 

FOLKS.. WE HAVE TO DO BETTER.. WE HAVE TO BE A PART OF THE SOLUTION TO MAKE THIS INDUSTRY BETTER.. IF YOU AREN'T THEN YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.... DO NOT SETTLE FOR LESS..

 

Jmho,

 

dp

[RkyMtnHI]

I have another question that i have wanted to ask for a long time.. seriously, not to be negative, but what happens if the turbo on an enstrom fails?? especially at altitude.. will it fly up here with out it? What is it's oge hover with out the turbine?

 

thanks,

 

dp

[BOATFIXERGUY]

Hmm, I've always wanted to own a flight school in Denver. Maybe I could start with a couple R22 HP's......

 

Nah, probably been tried before !!

 

You brought a good laugh to my day Goldy! Thank you!

[BOATFIXERGUY]

I have another question that i have wanted to ask for a long time.. seriously, not to be negative, but what happens if the turbo on an enstrom fails?? especially at altitude.. will it fly up here with out it? What is it's oge hover with out the turbine?

 

thanks,

 

dp

 

That's really a non issue Dennis. I'm sure it has happened, but then the bird becomes a non-turbo engine. Fly to a safe place and land.

 

As you know, I've owned 3 of them. The turbos are very good and they have a low 1200 hour TBO. Everyone I replaced at 1200 looked brand new inside. I've heard they will last over 2400 hours if properly maintained.

[adam32]

Fly whatever is cheapest and you feel safest in...every Robbie school will tell you that you have to fly Robbies to get a job, every Enstrom school will tell you that Enstroms are the way to go, and every Schweizer school will tell you that that's the only helicopter that was designed for training...take your pick and go have some fun!!

[HoverMatt]

 

Oh yeah, to be clear, there are NO flight schools in Denver operating R22s.. (or even in Colorado)

 

 

Great, now I feel like a troll. I hadn't realized this and thought my choice was going to be between the 280fx, 300c, and r22. Now that I look around at the websites of local schools it looks like you are indeed correct. Not a 22 to be found.

 

Sorry for being a bit dense and thanks for setting me straight, Dennis!

 

Matt

[Goldy]

Matt- R22's have the power to fly around Colorado all day long...in the winter!

 

Regardless, there really is not the MARGIN of power to use them effectively for training at higher altitudes. Once you get a hundred hours in an R22 you can fly it without using max pwer for takeoffs and max power to end in a hover, the problem lies in trying to teach you those skills without balling the thing up.

 

Look at your objective, if you want to learn to fly, but are not going to teach right away, then having a lack of R22 experience on the resume is no big deal. Find me an operator that uses the R22 for tours, how about picking up christmas trees, how about lifting gear in and out of campsites, how about an R22 with a Bambi bucket on it. So my drift is, its a fun little helicopter to teach people how to fly at the least expense. If you plan to teach as quickly as possible, you should have some R22 time to make you more marketable...absolutely.

 

If not, just go learn and have fun. Doesnt matter which ship if your goal is just to fly helicopters.

 

Fly safe!

 

Goldy